I'm not planning an exit!

[Scott Campbell]

I wonder if there's a place for us here:

http://www.christianforums.net/

[mraynrand]

I wonder if there's a place for us here:

http://www.christianforums.net/

I found that site very encouraging. No Harlan there however.

[MJZiggy]

However many months ago it was, Joe PMed me about helping with the new site. I once told Mad that I was familiar with Joomla (which was the cms we used) back when we had a homepage. I think I told Joe that I could help out a little with graphics and such but I'm guessing that's not what he needed help with.

I've got slightly more time now but before I volunteer for anything I'd like to know why we are switching BB software in the first place? I'm sure vbulletin is great and all but there is nothing wrong with the stuff we are using. PhpBB is probably the most popular BB forum software around.

If we were still intent on using Joomla, the current forum can be integrated more with the home page than it used to be, causing the segway from the homepage to the forum to be more seemless than before. This is what I'd propose longterm. To migrate us to a new forum software probably means setting it up on a different URL and then one day forwarding us all over there.

In my opinion the first step is for Joe to realize that there is a problem. Things would be much improved if packerrats.com would just redirect the users browser to packerrats.com/ratchat. That fix would take 5 minutes and people wouldn't have to know the secret back entrance to the forum in order to join. The broken homepage is like the site has internet AIDS and the censorship issues on this site will be the pneumonia that finishes it off.

Have they made joomla any easier to upload with? That stuff was always so fussy!

I don't think anyone wants to go through another migration either. But when folks like Patler speak of leaving, it's time for something to happen here, even if it's not perfect.

You mean to install or for uploading files from users? From my experience both 1.x and 1.5 have given me little trouble.

Uploading content. It was always funky and creating odd formatting when I pasted text in.

I thought that only happened when Cleft Crusty gave you files from his Commodore 64.

Maybe Crusty's DOS files would work better...

[CaptainKickass]

I am also not planning an exit from PR.

But yes Admin, and everyone else - I have been "cheating on you" by joining another forum that a few of you, and other former rats also post at. You'll probably never guess my poster name, and just like here - I don't really post much.

And now I feel very dirty. So dirty and violated and confused.

Is there a shelter for abused internet forum posters?

[Administrator]

However many months ago it was, Joe PMed me about helping with the new site. I once told Mad that I was familiar with Joomla (which was the cms we used) back when we had a homepage. I think I told Joe that I could help out a little with graphics and such but I'm guessing
that's not what he needed help with.

It was almost a year ago, I believe. You're right, it wasn't ultimately what I needed at the moment. After thinking about things, I also decided I was uncomfortable with the donation of "intellectual property" issues as well.

I inherited two of them when I bought this place, and I don't want any more of them.

I've got slightly more time now but before I volunteer for anything I'd like to know why we are switching BB software in the first place? I'm sure vbulletin is great and all but there is nothing wrong with the stuff we are using. PhpBB is probably the most popular BB forum software around.

I made the call to switch to Vbulletin because my initial thought was it would be easier to work with. I think that's true in terms of working with it from a user standpoint, but am not so sure it is from a development standpoint.

This particular version of PhpBB has got to go, it is far too outdated. I thought switching to the new vbulletin suite which I got a great deal on the purchase, would enable me to integrate things, and make it easier for folks to volunteer.

If we were still intent on using Joomla, the current forum can be integrated more with the home page than it used to be, causing the segway from the homepage to the forum to be more seemless than before. This is what I'd propose longterm. To migrate us to a new forum software probably means setting it up on a different URL and then one day forwarding us all over there.

The joomla home page was gone when I took over, partially due to the 1st intelectual property issue, and all I heard was complaints about how difficult it was to work with. I'm sure it's better now, but again, I was looking for two things with vbulletin, a consistent look and feel, and ease of use for both the posters and the volunteers.

At this point, I don't think I want to use joomla, I'd rather use what I paid for.

In my opinion the first step is for Joe to realize that there is a problem. Things would be much improved if packerrats.com would just redirect the users browser to packerrats.com/ratchat. That fix would take 5 minutes and people wouldn't have to know the secret back entrance to the forum in order to join. The broken homepage is like the site has internet AIDS and the censorship issues on this site will be the pneumonia that finishes it off.

I realize that there is a problem, but we probably differ on just what the problem is. There is a link on the home page, and has been for many months. I screwed with partial for a while before he left us, shortly thereafter, I fixed it.

I have no idea what you're talking about with censorship issues, and doubt I'd agree with you if I did know. You don't have the right to say anything you want, and I shouldn't have to post a bunch of rules for you to realize that.

I haven't edited very many posts in months and don't believe there are very many reasons to do that currently.

Anyway, I think this "planning" is just more or less people not wanting to be left behind if and when their favorite characters, like Patler, wander off. Considering the bond of history between those who are left, we don't need much to survive here. Not much at all. But we ate all the promises months and months ago.

A fair point. I'm guilty as charged. Not even going to try and defend it.

I'll explain it though. I realized that I alone couldn't stop all the infighting. I just had to wait for it to stop.

I put up a test beta and got very few praises. It was hard to log in, it was confusing, etc. I expected way different comments.

I wouldn't have even talked about switching, but through some email exchanges with one of our departed friends, I came to understand that there had been some issues with IP addresses. Without going into detail, it became apparent that having volunteers able to view them, that level of access could be abused, and I wasn't going to be a part of it.

So, part of my agreement with MTP was that he removed all moderator access, from every account but this one. After the email exchange, I never entertained the idea of getting new moderator help, until the software was switched. I can control myself and my intentions, but not others.

I investiged enough to know that it isn't possible to block this from moderator accounts, so thats why I'm the only one, and another reason for me to move off PHPBB. I'm sure it's fixed in the newer verisions, but didn't really care with the other issues.

Joe, then why did you "buy" this place? it seems to me that as an owner of any forum these would be the basic qualifications.

I do have "basic qualifications". Am I an expert? No, and don't want to be.

It is more than just "working with software". I can figure that out. But the infighting got to me, and I just decided I'd do little or nothing until it passed. I'm hoping we're at that point.

There was a time where virtually everything I did generated a storm of PM's complaining about this and that. Those will always happen, but hopefully not in those numbers.

I bought this place for two reasons. I knew when I agreed to the deal that there was a bunch of infighting going on. I thought being an outsider would stop that, since it appeared at the time, that most of the battle was directed at MTP and various moderator issues. I learned later that there was more than that going on, and I couldn't effect change anywhere near as fast as I thought.

Would I do it again? Probably not, but I'm here so I'm going to make the best of it.

Just to be clear, the only reason I have considered other boards is my impression that this board is dying. The only things that need to change are bringing in new blood and encouraging some of the dearly departed to return. <snip> I just don't like feeling that I am be jerked around or toyed with. I know that wasn't the intent, but I don't think I am the only one who feels that way.

Did I procrastinate making changes? To quote our former VP candidate, "YOU BETCHA". In hindsight, I think it might be a good thing but there was certainly no forethought. Was I "jerking you around"? No, surely not intentionally anyhow, but I did go through a period of time where I didn't care whether or not it ever got fixed. I probably should have explained that, but, at the time, I didn't want to listen to the comments so I stayed quiet.

I'm glad that we aren't out there in the search engines right now. We didn't really have anything attractive to offer anyone to sign up, except a bunch of drama.

New blood will follow once we have changes to the home page, and get listed in the search engines. But from my perspective, that's only a small part of it.

The real attraction comes from the posters. If you all post quality analysis, and quality opinion, that is what will drive folks to this site and make it a destination again. What I can provide is relatively minor. I think you guys drive the traffic flow here. It either becomes an attractive place to spend time or an unattractive place to spend time.

Until very recently, and for the past year, I don't think you guys have had much to offer and I believe that is the biggest reason folks have wandered away.

Some will never come back, and some probably will.

But yes Admin, and everyone else - I have been "cheating on you" by joining another forum that a few of you, and other former rats also post at. You'll probably never guess my poster name, and just like here - I don't really post much.

That doesn't bother me in the least. I hope that everyone posts at least one other place. The stuff here will be very stale if you don't.

I was talking about a mass exodus, which is a different thing entirely.

You don't have to hide your poster identity from me, and around here, I wish you'd post more. You've got a great sense of humor, some of the stuff you come up with is really funny.

Is there a shelter for abused internet forum posters?

I wish that could be here. But that's really up to the collective group. I can make rules to that effect, but, if someone steps up and attacks the new person, it won't work, even if it's someone different doing the attacking each time.

Here is the deal I'll make with whoever is left and whomever is interested in making a deal.

I'll fix the site, pay for a vbulletin skin so we don't have the boring default "blue" installation, but from that point, some of you have to jump in.

We need volunteers to write articles (I have a couple), volunteers to edit/proof/post them, and volunteers to moderate. I believe we need at least 3 blogs that are updated regularly, and we may need other help too.

I'm not going to accept volunteer help related to site software and programming, or anything resembling that until we have some type of written agreement giving the site the ability to use it for as long as it chooses. I don't want ownership, but I don't want to be in the position of having my ability to use something "revoked" because someone got their feeling hurt either.

I'll contribute the money to the effort for now, and I've even investigated a place where I can buy licensed images. I figure that's the least I can do if someone is willing to spend their time writing an article. It is pay by the 1k views, so it could get expensive, but I'm willing to give it a try to see if it would work, related to the home page only. Posting licensed images in the forums would probably bankrupt me.

We just can't grow by abusing copywrite and intellectual property laws. I don't want any more of those complaints either.

Love to hear your thoughts, and if you have criticisms, send those to me individually. I promise that I will respond to them.

[mraynrand]

If you spent as much time on the forum as you did on those responses, it would probably be revamped. The same could probably be said for my career.

[Administrator]

I'm slow, but I'd like to think I'm thorough.

[Patler]

Just to be clear, the only reason I have considered other boards is my impression that this board is dying. The only things that need to change are bringing in new blood and encouraging some of the dearly departed to return. <snip> I just don't like feeling that I am be jerked around or toyed with. I know that wasn't the intent, but I don't think I am the only one who feels that way.

Did I procrastinate making changes? To quote our former VP candidate, "YOU BETCHA". In hindsight, I think it might be a good thing but there was certainly no forethought. Was I "jerking you around"? No, surely not intentionally anyhow, but I did go through a period of time where I didn't care whether or not it ever got fixed. I probably should have explained that, but, at the time, I didn't want to listen to the comments so I stayed quiet.

I'm glad that we aren't out there in the search engines right now. We didn't really have anything attractive to offer anyone to sign up, except a bunch of drama.

New blood will follow once we have changes to the home page, and get listed in the search engines. But from my perspective, that's only a small part of it.

The real attraction comes from the posters. If you all post quality analysis, and quality opinion, that is what will drive folks to this site and make it a destination again. What I can provide is relatively minor. I think you guys drive the traffic flow here. It either becomes an attractive place to spend time or an unattractive place to spend time.

Until very recently, and for the past year, I don't think you guys have had much to offer and I believe that is the biggest reason folks have wandered away.

Some will never come back, and some probably will.

All rightee then!!! Thanks for making that clear.
People can't find the site.
Those that do find it can't get registered.
For a long time, those who found the homepage couldn't get to the board.
But it's our fault that people don't come here???

[mraynrand]

Just to be clear, the only reason I have considered other boards is my impression that this board is dying. The only things that need to change are bringing in new blood and encouraging some of the dearly departed to return. <snip> I just don't like feeling that I am be jerked around or toyed with. I know that wasn't the intent, but I don't think I am the only one who feels that way.

Did I procrastinate making changes? To quote our former VP candidate, "YOU BETCHA". In hindsight, I think it might be a good thing but there was certainly no forethought. Was I "jerking you around"? No, surely not intentionally anyhow, but I did go through a period of time where I didn't care whether or not it ever got fixed. I probably should have explained that, but, at the time, I didn't want to listen to the comments so I stayed quiet.

I'm glad that we aren't out there in the search engines right now. We didn't really have anything attractive to offer anyone to sign up, except a bunch of drama.

New blood will follow once we have changes to the home page, and get listed in the search engines. But from my perspective, that's only a small part of it.

The real attraction comes from the posters. If you all post quality analysis, and quality opinion, that is what will drive folks to this site and make it a destination again. What I can provide is relatively minor. I think you guys drive the traffic flow here. It either becomes an attractive place to spend time or an unattractive place to spend time.

Until very recently, and for the past year, I don't think you guys have had much to offer and I believe that is the biggest reason folks have wandered away.

Some will never come back, and some probably will.

All rightee then!!! Thanks for making that clear.
People can't find the site.
Those that do find it can't get registered.
For a long time, those who found the homepage couldn't get to the board.
But it's our fault that people don't come here???

No, no. He's saying that he was protecting the crowds from us. Even had the whole world known about Packerrats, our infighting would have driven them away. Kindof like being a invited to dinner at the Bunkers.

[Tarlam!]

I'm not planning an exit either, but what Patler paraphrased seems accurate and coming from our owner, is very worrying.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Thanks admin for taking the time to explain a lot of open questions.

[Administrator]

All rightee then!!! Thanks for making that clear.
People can't find the site.
Those that do find it can't get registered.
For a long time, those who found the homepage couldn't get to the board.
But it's our fault that people don't come here???

Patler, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

However, for a guy who thinks facts are the most important thing, I find it concerning that you interpreted "biggest" for "only".

I didn't say that the forum was to "blame", rather I said the forum was and is a part of what's going on. I personally believe having good inviting discussion is more important than being discoverable through google and having a good homepage, but that is my opinion and I am entitled to it, and it was presented as such.

You also ignored the other places where I said that I didn't follow through. Where I said I didn't complete the new site, didn't communicate that, and further went through a period of time where I didn't care whether or not it got done.

If that's the way you truly feel, good for you for expressing it, but I don't agree.

[Patler]

All rightee then!!! Thanks for making that clear.
People can't find the site.
Those that do find it can't get registered.
For a long time, those who found the homepage couldn't get to the board.
But it's our fault that people don't come here???

Patler, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

However, for a guy who thinks facts are the most important thing, I find it concerning that you interpreted "biggest" for "only".

I didn't say that the forum was to "blame", rather I said the forum was and is a part of what's going on. I personally believe having good inviting discussion is more important than being discoverable through google and having a good homepage, but that is my opinion and I am entitled to it, and it was presented as such.

You also ignored the other places where I said that I didn't follow through. Where I said I didn't complete the new site, didn't communicate that, and further went through a period of time where I didn't care whether or not it got done.

If that's the way you truly feel, good for you for expressing it, but I don't agree.

Gee, thanks for telling me I am entitled to my own opinion, but where did I say it was the "only" reason? However, you certainly made it clear where you thought the major problem was.

I didn't expect you would agree with me, I don't expect you to be convinced, and unfortunately, I don't expect anything to change.

[Administrator]

Gee, thanks for telling me I am entitled to my own opinion, but where did I say it was the "only" reason? However, you certainly made it clear where you thought the major problem was.

I didn't expect you would agree with me, I don't expect you to be convinced, and unfortunately, I don't expect anything to change.

Can you really read what you wrote and not reach the conclusion that you meant "only"? What other explanation could there be when you say:

But it's our fault that people don't come here???

You cherry picked two sentences out of a half a book, and formed a conclusion that I was blaming the forum for the issues.

It wasn't accurate. It wasn't in context.

It would be very easy for another poster to cherry pick two other sentences and claim that I took all the blame for the predicament. That wouldn't be accurate either.

[Patler]

Gee, thanks for telling me I am entitled to my own opinion, but where did I say it was the "only" reason? However, you certainly made it clear where you thought the major problem was.

I didn't expect you would agree with me, I don't expect you to be convinced, and unfortunately, I don't expect anything to change.

Can you really read what you wrote and not reach the conclusion that you meant "only"? What other explanation could there be when you say:

But it's our fault that people don't come here???

You cherry picked two sentences out of a half a book, and formed a conclusion that I was blaming the forum for the issues.

It wasn't accurate. It wasn't in context.

It would be very easy for another poster to cherry pick two other sentences and claim that I took all the blame for the predicament. That wouldn't be accurate either.

I cherry picked two sentences?
It wasn't accurate?
It wasn't in context?
I quoted your entire reply to my post. How is that cherry picking, inaccurate or taking out of context?
I bolded two sentences within your reply that I believe were key insights and commented on them. If you want a rambling screed I can give you one, but I assumed a pointed discussion about specific issues might be more productive.