COACHING AND KIDS AND WINNING AND SPORTSMANSHIP

[Bretsky]

I use to be a high school teacher and coach; teaching just was not for me.

I still love coaching
but
I absolutely hate losing

So I'm an assistant coach for my daughter's fourth grade basketball team. In the eight team league, there is one team better than the rest. Then there are two teams competing for the second best (us and the team we played today) and the rest I think are closet but not quite as good as us.

So today, we played the team we are competing with to get to 2nd place. We have two players who are heads and heals above the next seven players on our team. I looked at the opposing teams stats and knew who their two scorers were. I suggested to our head coach we match our two best players up with their two scorers so we get a nice start.

He let me know he was not starting our best player because he rotates starters. We got off to a horseshit start, we were down by 5 at halftime, and lost the game by one bloody point. To quote Newmann from the Jerry Seinfeldt show, it would be fair to say that as a coach I absolutely LOATHE losing. This defeat will probably put me in a bad mood for several days. The kids who care about basketball were severaly bummed after the loss as well.

My wife asked me why our best player did not start and I explained to her what occured and it led to an interesing discussion. Our team always rotates players in and out so they all get minutes. But I'm struggling with the charity rotation in the starting lineup.

My belief is simple; I want the good start. So I start our two studs every game of the year and then take turns with the other three spots to everybody starts a couple games. I also play the two studs a bit more than the rest as well; they've played a lot more and taken the time to learn the game and those kids should play more than the others who have not. I should admit my own daughter is NOT one of the two studs and would fall into the category of the kids who would slightly sacrifice minutes to them.

As a parent..............or older brother/sister........of a player..............what would your philosophy be ????

If you were a parent of the two studs, and we barely lose because of some decisions how would you feel ?

If you were the parent of the not so good players, would you be thankful for the extra charity start, or would you wonder why the two best players did not start. My wife definitely falls into the realm thinking we should play more to win. But often that draws the ire of players as well.

I'm curious as to what others might think; perhaps this will be part of my rehab

[pbmax]

Much depends on the goals of the league you have signed up for. Many leagues for younger players (I assume that for fourth graders, you team ages are around 10 y.o.) push specific development goals for the participants in the league.

I coached a youth team (3rd grade) that was part of a church league. The entire emphasis was about fair treatment and play and developing skills. If that is the promise the league is making to parents and children who sign up, then its a model a coach has to uphold. These 9 yo practiced once a week and played two games on the weekend. If the majority of the roster is sharing 3 positions, we (the other coach and I) have limited the amount of development that can happen, since 2/3 of the league occurs in a game, weekly.

On the other hand, at some point in a team's life, some kids move ahead of other, are more enthusiastic and have parents more than willing to shuttle more and more players to more and more practices. The league may be more neutral about the specific goals of teams. If the team emphasis has shifted to more practice and fewer games, then development mainly happens on the practice court and the games can be rewards for production during practice. A soccer team we were involved with (I was not coach) evolved this way and my daughter wanted to go to every practice. Eventually, this was reflected in the playing times of the children. At this point, the families often made decisions about whether to continue to play or not.

Eventually, the league will be designed specifically to encourage team over individuals. At this point, practice will predominate (especially early) and players will need to earn court time in practice. You might be a couple years away from that.

If all else fails, what do the parent of other players think (not necessarily the parents of your team)? That will tell you the most about what the team should expect from its coach, if the league hasn't spelled it out.

[Bretsky]

Unfortunately the league has not really spelled out goals so it's up to each coach. Each kid is suppose to play and we encourage good sportsmanship among all. But playing time...specific goals...not spelled out.

We have one practive per week and one game per week as a fyi

[Bretsky]

it would be interesting to get each parents views though.........but since the team is from three different local schools we don't all know each other.

My gut tells me the parents with brain cells would prefer us starting the big two and rotating the others because all the parents want to see us win as well. The last two minutes of today's game we had a log of parents screaming encouragement when we were down one point. The last shots just didn't fall

On the other hand the parents with kids who really have minimal interest in being there....talent wise at bottom of roster....would probably encourage full equality

[pbmax]

On the other hand the parents with kids who really have minimal interest in being there....talent wise at bottom of roster....would probably encourage full equality

Just be careful not to confuse these two things as inextricably linked. Many talented players don't really want to be there and are there because of parents or expectations. And many eager youngsters struggle mightily to master the basics of the game. With one practice and one game, it sounds like the league is built to encourage interest before skill level. An even number of games with practice is meant to minimize boredom with practice. It sounds like you are a level away from building the team above other goals.

[MJZiggy]

Just be careful not to confuse these two things as inextricably linked. Many talented players don't really want to be there and are there because of parents or expectations. And many eager youngsters struggle mightily to master the basics of the game. With one practice and one game, it sounds like the league is built to encourage interest before skill level. An even number of games with practice is meant to minimize boredom with practice. It sounds like you are a level away from building the team above other goals.

My kid is fast and was a decent soccer player until he reached the level where the other kids practiced on their own and weren't just there because their moms told them they had to play a sport so they wouldn't be sitting there playing video games all day. He lost interest in going to practice and I lost interest in making him go. Now I just let him play wii sports and throw him out when the weather's nice.

As to B's question, I think you can rotate people in and still try to match your good players with theirs. I don't now that it's necessary to rotate the starters when you're rotating the minutes.

[swede]

I feel you, B.

My girls are grown now, and I do have a son in high school who is a good athlete. I've coached teams for all of them along the way. My oldest daughter broke my heart when she gave up high school athletics after I had coached her in softball, fast pitch, and basketball from 2nd grade until eighth grade. She was talented enough to continue, but she simply didn't care for the pressures that went along with high school competition.

Looking back over 20 years it wasn't the wins or losses that mean anything anymore. Most of that is forgotten. We both learned a lot by dealing with the very same situations and questions you brought here to the forum. Some of the kids you coach have little interest or talent. They come to socialize and to be part of something. Some of the kids you coach may be varsity athletes someday and they are desperate to get better so they put time in between practices. If the decision is tough, make sure that you err on the side of the kids.

One of my happiest moments as a coach came when my daughter was playing softball in third grade. We were playing a team with a hyper-competitive dad coach who was forever sending his girls to score from first base on little grounders. Nine year old girls are fast, but they can't throw darts across the diamond, and even if they do the likelihood of a teammate controlling the ball and tagging a runner isn't good. Most coaches in the league had the girls take a base or two on a single and only allowed the girls to score from first on balls hit into the outfield. Not this jerk. Nonetheless, we managed to get a slim lead going into the bottom of the last inning we were going to play. Looking at my notes I was concerned to see that I had my tiniest little girl taking her turn at 2nd base and a heavy little girl with a tiny little plastic glove was scheduled to take her turn at first base. No one except the girls would have known if I had switched those two for a couple of my awesome little sure-handed players. But they would have known. I took a big breath and I stayed with those two. It was their turn after all. A fierce line drive was knocked down by the pitcher for the first out, and then along came two rollers to 2nd that were fielded by tiny little "Salty" and tossed to first to end the game. Had we lost I would have at least known that I'd done the right thing. But we won, and I seriously almost cried because I had fought down the temptation to break my own rules just to beat that prick coach on the other side of the diamond. The girls didn't even know it, but I had almost let them down.

There were other times, ugly times, when I scolded a 6th grade girl for standing and watching as a ball rolled past her. I screamed, "What color is your shirt? It's PINK! You're on OUR TEAM!" Just because I don't know the anxiety of a girl who has been praying that the ball won't come near her doesn't mean I had the right to be demeaning. I hate living with that. Chances are she's forgotten, but she may remember it as a time she let everybody down instead of a time when the coach was kind even when her play was poor.

Anyway,B, I don't mean my reminiscing to be preachy. There will be opportunities for good young athletes to excel with your help, and there will be times when indifferent athletes will challenge your patience. I only offer to you that I remember the times I was a good coach and a good mentor fondly, and I don't remember too much about the wins and the losses.

[wootah]

Nice thread, guys. I'm a coach of a boys soccer team for 3 years now, so I love to read your stories and learn from them. Coaching is something which can bring a lot of joy, but boy, do I recognize the dilemmas you're facing all to well...

My take is the following (without wanting to patronize). The importance a coach should give winning is depending of a couple of factors;
1) age of the players (speaks for itself)
2) if it's a youth team; whether you're coaching boys or girls (their mental make-up is considerably different)
3) goals set by the team ("the plan"), clearly communicated to the players (& the parents)

I started coaching my team 2 years ago. They were the "B" team of another club (from a town more than an hour drive from my place), bottom of the league, all their games lost, and in 10 matches they scored 4 times and had taken 85 or something like that. Nobody wanted to coach them, so they just played their games, without training. I was looking for a hobby with a social side to it, which I felt was lacking in my regular job, so I started training them mid-season. My goals were to teach those guys more than just how to play the sport. I was a hyper-competitive player back in the day, so I wanted them to never surrender. Even if nobody thought we could play, even if we got laughed at in our faces, we would continue to work hard and prove the naysayers wrong.

I decided to give it my all, reading up on a lot of literature regarding conditioning, tactics, formations, and whatnot. If I expected my players to be the best they could be, I would hold myself to the same standards. We got beat thoroughly each week, but we stayed upbeat, we worked hard and we improved. We managed to get a draw our second but last game and we won our last one. Just thinking about that last game, and the emotions afterwards, still gives me goosebumps. After that final whistle... I have never seen so much unspoiled JOY in my life on those guys' faces. It's something I'll never forget and I hope the same goes for the players.

I guess what I wanted to say is this; do not underestimate the impact a coach can have on a young boy's/girl's life. Lombardi wasn't teaching 11 year olds. At that age, winning isn't everything (Sorry Vince, I like your material, though!). As a coach, stay true to your course. That's a great story about those baseball girls, Swede. BELIEVE ME when I say I have felt the frustration towards the behaviour of the other coach and I know how difficult it can be not to get into the good and bad emotions during the game.

I have faced another dilemma recently. I'm still coaching the same guys as 2 years ago. Those guys have become my little brothers; I know their other hobbies, their families, their favorite tv shows and the names of their dogs. A couple of weeks ago a club from a higher level asked me to become a youth coach at their club next season. I have seen that team play, they are great. Next year, they will compete in a league with the best teams of the 'state', including the best club in Belgium of which I still am a big fan. On top of that, they seem like nice kids as well. I've already made up my mind on this, but I'm curious; what would you guys do?

[HowardRoark]

I am the school board of a small/medium sized parochial school, and this very issue took up the better part of our 2009-2010 agendas. This issue is at the forefront of many parent’s minds; the whole “winning vs. playing time” dilemma.

We compromised with rotating playing time 5/6 graders, and playing to win with the 7/8 graders. It really is about developing skills, both mental and physical, for the younger ones. They start to separate themselves after a couple years (and THEY know it).

I personally am more old school and naturally go for the “play to win” philosophy, but have come around to getting more time for the younger ones. It’s the parents who are more of the problem quite frankly. I am sure that a 7th grade kid knows exactly where he/she stands as far as ability on the team…..and is at peace with it. The parents are the ones who get too involved.

Learning that they are not the best at a particular activity, yet showing up to be a part of the team is a building block of a child’s character. Too often that block is lost nowadays in the “everyone needs a trophy” society.

[mraynrand]

I am the school board of a small/medium sized parochial school, and this very issue took up the better part of our 2009-2010 agendas. This issue is at the forefront of many parent’s minds; the whole “winning vs. playing time” dilemma.

We compromised with rotating playing time 5/6 graders, and playing to win with the 7/8 graders. It really is about developing skills, both mental and physical, for the younger ones. They start to separate themselves after a couple years (and THEY know it).

I personally am more old school and naturally go for the “play to win” philosophy, but have come around to getting more time for the younger ones. It’s the parents who are more of the problem quite frankly. I am sure that a 7th grade kid knows exactly where he/she stands as far as ability on the team…..and is at peace with it. The parents are the ones who get too involved.

Learning that they are not the best at a particular activity, yet showing up to be apart of the team is a building block of a child’s character. Too often that block is lost nowadays in the “everyone needs a trophy” society.

This is pretty much what I did coaching, but grades 3/4 were equal playing time, and 5/6 was tilted to the kids with talent and drive. And yes, the kids know it. Some of the kids who aren't as good want to play, but they want the better kids to play more because they know they have a better chance to win. Imagine that.

[Scott Campbell]

As a parent..............or older brother/sister........of a player..............what would your philosophy be ????

You have to remember why those kids are there in first place. For your entertainment. Those losses reflect poorly on you as a human being.

[Bretsky]

some real good comments in here.....SC........ouch......lol

Before responding to a few posts I'll share a memory I will NEVER ever forget.

Years ago when I was a full time teacher I was also a varsity girls softball coach. My first year as coach we were pretty good but in year two we were devoid of talent. Good teams would run rule us early since we didn't have a gal who could throw a good windmill and bad teams would still beat us up some as well.

Had a senior gal come up to me and ask why she was not getting more playing time. Nice girl and all; but in reality she was about a 13th player on a bad team and not good enough to be on most teams. I was honest with her at the beginning of the year and let her know what I envisioned her role being.....a good attitude player....but somebody who would not see much playing time during the season because other players were just more advanced. My response to her was honest and sincere about why she was not playing much over others............but deep down I still felt like crap about the whole thing...........

FAST FORWARD THREE DAYS LATER....................

We were playing at home against about the best team in the state in Middleton. That team had about the best pitcher in the state (I think her last name was Hellickson) , and the gal who I think was the best all around girl athlete that came through Wisconsin in Angie Halblieb....all state in VB, BB, and Softball.

We were so overmatched that against four of their ten hitters, I pulled my second baseman (if there was nobody on first base) to play four outfielders. Overall the strategy was working. As a coach my hope was to not get run ruled; I knew that giving up 20 runs against this team in four innings was a possibility with this mismatch.

We were playing great D and going into the fifth inning we were trailing 7-1.......parents were happy........all was good with the world. Voices were in my head and I decided to put this girl in at the top of the 5th. We got a couple outs and they got a couple hits. And then a walk to load the bases up with two outs.

One of the girls at the bottom of their order.......hit......a slicing line drive toward right. And yes, you know how it ends. The girl who I felt sympathy for......and put into the game against my better judgment....misjuded the ball, it sliced away from her.

Yup

Inside the Park Home Run

11-1

Run Rule

Game Over


That is one that I will never ever forget

[Bretsky]

Nice thread, guys. I'm a coach of a boys soccer team for 3 years now, so I love to read your stories and learn from them. Coaching is something which can bring a lot of joy, but boy, do I recognize the dilemmas you're facing all to well...

My take is the following (without wanting to patronize). The importance a coach should give winning is depending of a couple of factors;
1) age of the players (speaks for itself)
2) if it's a youth team; whether you're coaching boys or girls (their mental make-up is considerably different)
3) goals set by the team ("the plan"), clearly communicated to the players (& the parents)

I started coaching my team 2 years ago. They were the "B" team of another club (from a town more than an hour drive from my place), bottom of the league, all their games lost, and in 10 matches they scored 4 times and had taken 85 or something like that. Nobody wanted to coach them, so they just played their games, without training. I was looking for a hobby with a social side to it, which I felt was lacking in my regular job, so I started training them mid-season. My goals were to teach those guys more than just how to play the sport. I was a hyper-competitive player back in the day, so I wanted them to never surrender. Even if nobody thought we could play, even if we got laughed at in our faces, we would continue to work hard and prove the naysayers wrong.

I decided to give it my all, reading up on a lot of literature regarding conditioning, tactics, formations, and whatnot. If I expected my players to be the best they could be, I would hold myself to the same standards. We got beat thoroughly each week, but we stayed upbeat, we worked hard and we improved. We managed to get a draw our second but last game and we won our last one. Just thinking about that last game, and the emotions afterwards, still gives me goosebumps. After that final whistle... I have never seen so much unspoiled JOY in my life on those guys' faces. It's something I'll never forget and I hope the same goes for the players.

I guess what I wanted to say is this; do not underestimate the impact a coach can have on a young boy's/girl's life. Lombardi wasn't teaching 11 year olds. At that age, winning isn't everything (Sorry Vince, I like your material, though!). As a coach, stay true to your course. That's a great story about those baseball girls, Swede. BELIEVE ME when I say I have felt the frustration towards the behaviour of the other coach and I know how difficult it can be not to get into the good and bad emotions during the game.

I have faced another dilemma recently. I'm still coaching the same guys as 2 years ago. Those guys have become my little brothers; I know their other hobbies, their families, their favorite tv shows and the names of their dogs. A couple of weeks ago a club from a higher level asked me to become a youth coach at their club next season. I have seen that team play, they are great. Next year, they will compete in a league with the best teams of the 'state', including the best club in Belgium of which I still am a big fan. On top of that, they seem like nice kids as well. I've already made up my mind on this, but I'm curious; what would you guys do?

Wootah.......my prediction is you are staying with the group you have now. I'm assuming the coaching positions are non paid. I'd probably move on...but it depends on how emotionally connected I was to the current group

[Bretsky]

I am the school board of a small/medium sized parochial school, and this very issue took up the better part of our 2009-2010 agendas. This issue is at the forefront of many parent’s minds; the whole “winning vs. playing time” dilemma.

We compromised with rotating playing time 5/6 graders, and playing to win with the 7/8 graders. It really is about developing skills, both mental and physical, for the younger ones. They start to separate themselves after a couple years (and THEY know it).

I personally am more old school and naturally go for the “play to win” philosophy, but have come around to getting more time for the younger ones. It’s the parents who are more of the problem quite frankly. I am sure that a 7th grade kid knows exactly where he/she stands as far as ability on the team…..and is at peace with it. The parents are the ones who get too involved.

Learning that they are not the best at a particular activity, yet showing up to be a part of the team is a building block of a child’s character. Too often that block is lost nowadays in the “everyone needs a trophy” society.

I am also on the school board of a parochial K-8th grade school. I've been through exactly what you mentioned above. We have the same views; last year the head of the schoolboard wanted to try to mandate some guidelines for playing time with the A team; part of that IMO was his daughter was on the team. I vehemently opposed; every kids plays a decent amount of time for the B teams in G six to seven but at the top level coaches are allowed to try to win with not as equal playing time.

I used a very political way to explain myself. I noted that most of the kids are thirteen to fourteen and the ones who are better have worked far harder to get to their skill level so they deserve to pla more. I get a kick out of the everybody should get equal participation group.....the sports is a right to all and not a priveledge. Yes, I'm more old school as well

[MJZiggy]

Nice thread, guys. I'm a coach of a boys soccer team for 3 years now, so I love to read your stories and learn from them. Coaching is something which can bring a lot of joy, but boy, do I recognize the dilemmas you're facing all to well...

My take is the following (without wanting to patronize). The importance a coach should give winning is depending of a couple of factors;
1) age of the players (speaks for itself)
2) if it's a youth team; whether you're coaching boys or girls (their mental make-up is considerably different)
3) goals set by the team ("the plan"), clearly communicated to the players (& the parents)

I started coaching my team 2 years ago. They were the "B" team of another club (from a town more than an hour drive from my place), bottom of the league, all their games lost, and in 10 matches they scored 4 times and had taken 85 or something like that. Nobody wanted to coach them, so they just played their games, without training. I was looking for a hobby with a social side to it, which I felt was lacking in my regular job, so I started training them mid-season. My goals were to teach those guys more than just how to play the sport. I was a hyper-competitive player back in the day, so I wanted them to never surrender. Even if nobody thought we could play, even if we got laughed at in our faces, we would continue to work hard and prove the naysayers wrong.

I decided to give it my all, reading up on a lot of literature regarding conditioning, tactics, formations, and whatnot. If I expected my players to be the best they could be, I would hold myself to the same standards. We got beat thoroughly each week, but we stayed upbeat, we worked hard and we improved. We managed to get a draw our second but last game and we won our last one. Just thinking about that last game, and the emotions afterwards, still gives me goosebumps. After that final whistle... I have never seen so much unspoiled JOY in my life on those guys' faces. It's something I'll never forget and I hope the same goes for the players.

I guess what I wanted to say is this; do not underestimate the impact a coach can have on a young boy's/girl's life. Lombardi wasn't teaching 11 year olds. At that age, winning isn't everything (Sorry Vince, I like your material, though!). As a coach, stay true to your course. That's a great story about those baseball girls, Swede. BELIEVE ME when I say I have felt the frustration towards the behaviour of the other coach and I know how difficult it can be not to get into the good and bad emotions during the game.

I have faced another dilemma recently. I'm still coaching the same guys as 2 years ago. Those guys have become my little brothers; I know their other hobbies, their families, their favorite tv shows and the names of their dogs. A couple of weeks ago a club from a higher level asked me to become a youth coach at their club next season. I have seen that team play, they are great. Next year, they will compete in a league with the best teams of the 'state', including the best club in Belgium of which I still am a big fan. On top of that, they seem like nice kids as well. I've already made up my mind on this, but I'm curious; what would you guys do?

Who needs you more? Where will you have the most impact?