Lance Armstrong

[Kiwon]

Okay......burst my bubble.

Is Lance Armstrong really guilty? So in the midst of years of continuous testing, he was doping undetected?

I can take that Santa isn't real or Dorothy never left Kansas or Peter Pan did grow up, but........Lance Armstrong, a cheater?

He's a hero, right?

[wootah]

He's a fraud. All of his teammates made detailed, independent testimonies that all tell the same story. Doping was professionally organised in Armstrong's/Bruyneel's teams. His fellow riders had to participate or they'd get kicked out.

Let it be clear that it was a time where everyone cheated, but Armstrong just had access to the best candy of them all. Time to take off the livestrong bracelet...

[hoosier]

Along with our very own former QB, just another example of how silly hero worshipping can get.

[mraynrand]

Along with our very own 'former' president, just another example of how silly hero worshipping can get.

FIFY - sorry about the FYI intrusion.

[mraynrand]

Okay......burst my bubble.

Is Lance Armstrong really guilty? So in the midst of years of continuous testing, he was doping undetected?

I can take that Santa isn't real or Dorothy never left Kansas or Peter Pan did grow up, but........Lance Armstrong, a cheater?

He's a hero, right?

When you look at all these guys, and how competitive they are, a case like this - much like roids or other enhancers in the NFL - makes me wonder just how many guys are doing the same thing and don't get caught. But Lance cheated; it seems pretty obvious. But is he the only guy, or just the guy people decided to take out? If Wootah is correct that everyone cheated, then why Armstrong? If everyone is a 'cheater', doesn't that mean no one really is?

[George Cumby]

Okay......burst my bubble.

Is Lance Armstrong really guilty? So in the midst of years of continuous testing, he was doping undetected?

I can take that Santa isn't real or Dorothy never left Kansas or Peter Pan did grow up, but........Lance Armstrong, a cheater?

He's a hero, right?

His wife stays with him through his fight with cancer. He then dumps her for some floozy with a guitar. Fuck Lance Armstrong.

[Kiwon]

His wife stays with him through his fight with cancer. He then dumps her for some floozy with a guitar. Fuck Lance Armstrong.

And then he dumped Sheryl Crow in 2006 and since has 2 kids with another lady. But that's his personal business. Sheryl Crow got her revenge anyway after being subpoenaed by the Feds.

What I care about is the doping or cheating. How does he get away with it for so long if it was rampant? He was suspected and tested all the time. Is he this criminal mastermind that just outsmarted the American, French, and other cycling organizations? Who developed the chemicals he was using? Who perfected the system/schedule of when to use and when to not?

I mean, he did not do this alone. Who really is behind the doping in cycling? Who manufactures the chemicals? Who teaches the riders how to shoot up?

[wootah]

When you look at all these guys, and how competitive they are, a case like this - much like roids or other enhancers in the NFL - makes me wonder just how many guys are doing the same thing and don't get caught. But Lance cheated; it seems pretty obvious. But is he the only guy, or just the guy people decided to take out? If Wootah is correct that everyone cheated, then why Armstrong? If everyone is a 'cheater', doesn't that mean no one really is?

All others have already been caught. It was just Armstrong who was able to escape miraculously while he was the one who absolutely destroyed the doped up opponents for 7 years in a row. Smells fishy, right? Maybe cycling is not so big where you're from, but over here it is, and there has been plenty of press regarding the others ones that got caught. An overview of the Lance's Tours de France with the ones linked to doping crossed out:

1999


2000


2001


2002


2003


2004


2005


Crazy, huh?

What I care about is the doping or cheating. How does he get away with it for so long if it was rampant? He was suspected and tested all the time. Is he this criminal mastermind that just outsmarted the American, French, and other cycling organizations? Who developed the chemicals he was using? Who perfected the system/schedule of when to use and when to not?
I mean, he did not do this alone. Who really is behind the doping in cycling? Who manufactures the chemicals? Who teaches the riders how to shoot up?

This is the reason the Armstrong thing is so big. All the big cyclists of that era had been caught, he wasn't. How was that possible? The USADA report show a number of reasons:
1) The US Postal doping program was more advanced than that of the other teams (more resources) and it was set up in such a professional manner that they always were a step ahead of the doping hunters.
2) Team manager Johan Bruyneel (blame it on the Belgian!) apparently knew when they would be tested via his contacts and that gave Armstrong & co time to get all evidences wiped out.
3) The one time Armstrong did get caught, apparently he and Nike offerect $500k to the doping agency in order to have this covered up. Nike hasn't responded to these accusations yet, but they did end their contracts with Armstrong yesterday.

Now where does it all come from? The doping are just meds used for other purposes. Very popular are astma relating meds enlarging lung capacity. A couple of years ago a report came out that more than half of the professional cyclists were diagnosed with astma and therefor were allowed to take some kind of meds for that without having it concidered to be doping

Then there's EPO and all kind of variants which (I believe) improves the oxygen transfer in the blood. Also normally a drug for sick people.

Popular the last years were the blood transfers, where blood rich of white bloodcells was being tapped from the cyclists during training sessions early in the season and then again inserted to their bodies during exhausting multiple day races like the Tour de France when the level of white blood cells in their blood was low.

The cyclist wants to make money and there are doctors/vets out there which have the knowhow and the access to these products. They will provide them for a nice price. Armstrong payed millions of dollars to Doctor Ferrari, who is linked to doping in multiple cases. According to Armstrong it was for "training consulting".

[Patler]

It's unfortunate, too, because Armstrong might have been a star if the sport had been clean. According to a few articles I read, he was a phenom of sorts as a young boy, first in distance running,then in cycling. Even his competitors admit that he trained far more than they did. He was possessed by the competition.

As the red "X"'s in wootah's post show, it was rampant in the sport. I wonder if those not X'ed out were clean, or just not caught because no one cared enough about them to pursue investigations. When so many do it, how does one compete and not do it?

[Kiwon]

All others have already been caught. It was just Armstrong who was able to escape miraculously while he was the one who absolutely destroyed the doped up opponents for 7 years in a row. Smells fishy, right? Maybe cycling is not so big where you're from, but over here it is, and there has been plenty of press regarding the others ones that got caught. An overview of the Lance's Tours de France with the ones linked to doping crossed out:

The cyclist wants to make money and there are doctors/vets out there which have the knowhow and the access to these products. They will provide them for a nice price. Armstrong payed millions of dollars to Doctor Ferrari, who is linked to doping in multiple cases. According to Armstrong it was for "training consulting".

So year after year, 90% of the top finishers in the Tours de France were cheaters? Wow.

So what changes to cycling have been made in recent years? How do you catch blood dopers? Measure the white blood counts?

I have wondered about that.....are you cheating just because you are receiving your own blood? Maybe they ought to have a cheaters race and everyone be up front about it. Each rider still has to complete the grueling event under often adverse weather conditions.

I agree with Patler, a bulldog has nothing on Armstrong when it comes to toughness in competition. Say what you want to, seven times he started at the same starting line as everyone else and seven times he finished ahead of everyone else after riding for 3 weeks. He rode the miles, he completed the stages. <sigh> But I guess he cheated doing it.

I suppose if there are shortcuts available, the temptation is too great not to take it.

It's really too bad. A great story is re-written and a very inspiring legacy is tainted forever.

[wootah]

DP

[wootah]

Armstrong was mentally on a different level than most of his opponents; an animal while training AND during the race. You can still see that competitive fire in his triathlon results of the last years.

Would he be as dominant if everybody was clean cannot be known. It is a fact that the Armstrong pre-cancer and the one after are 2 complete types of cyclists. From a heavy muscular type that relied on his power and was unfit for the multiple day races to a slimmed down version relying on endurance & technique which could compete in the mountains as well.

Just look at his body type before:


and after:


Regarding the ones not caught; Kivilev died very young from a bad fall during a race. The others probably got out before they got caught. Cyclists are all tested regularly, from the big names to the small ones, so I don't think it's a matter of the authorities not caring enough.

[wootah]

So what changes to cycling have been made in recent years? How do you catch blood dopers? Measure the white blood counts?

Yes, that's one way of testing it; using the hematocrit values of the blood & compare that with previous measurements. Since these levels are normally pretty stable (they vary a little if you train at great heigth), variances are considered linked to doping. Each pro cyclist has his own proper "blood passport" with which his values are compared.

They also test on illegal substances of which sometimes particles are left in the tapped blood. This is what got Alberto Contador caught recently. As he said himself, he only had "Zero comma zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero cinco gramos" of the illegal substance in his blood

But let's face facts, also in this topic: if a proper doping test procedure would exist in NBA/NFL, one comparable to that in cycling, we'd see a lot of red crosses there as well, I'm afraid. Still we continue to watch the games...

[mraynrand]

Nice info Wootah. So everyone is a 'cheater' - What's the point; why not let everyone dope it up? Saves money on all those tests!

[Freak Out]

The doping and such was a very small part of how he won so many Tours...great teams were built that were focused on one thing only, getting Lance another title, he was such a naturally gifted endurance athlete to begin with...and he trained like a demonic motherfucker.....but in the end he cheated like all the others and another Superman was exposed as a fraud.

The organizers need to go back to the roots of the tour...blood doping with champagne and cigarettes!