RIP Robin Williams

[texaspackerbacker]

What are my credentials? For this topic, absolutely nothing, just as I have absolutely no credentials for football. However, I do have certain backgrounds and experiences allowing me to form beliefs and opinions about many things that I am willing to discuss with anyone.

One of my first degrees was in chemistry, with an emphasis in organic & biochemistry. That was many, many years ago, and I never worked as a chemist of any type. However, all of my careers since then have been in technology fields. Even now, hardly a week goes by that I am not in a lab or in contact with engineers/researchers about projects they are engaged in. I've not worked directly in any medical field, but at one time I was regularly involved for years with several leading suppliers of medical implants, joint replacement structures, etc. I remain involved with a retired physician who developed several medical tools and is bringing to the market an over-the-counter treatment he has worked on for 10+ years (I have worked with him since the start).

I have spent my adult life reading and evaluating technical reports and studies about things I know quite well. While I don't pretend to know the chemistry involved at any high level at all, when I read reports about the differences in neurotransmitter levels for schizophrenics compared to others, I have a certain rudimentary understanding even if I am not equipped to evaluate the report. When I read about investigations of hereditary connections, I understand the arguments for and against. When I read about studies showing people with certain gene mutations having a much greater likelihood of developing schizophrenia, I understand the logic. Do I know how all of the tests are taken? No, I am willing to trust the data-taking ability of research institutions of good repute. The data for a patient or subject are facts for that patient. Whether or not they are facts for the condition are yet to be determined, but there appear to be strong connections, and it is that body of knowledge that we are scratching the surface of.

I know little about psychiatry, but I know enough about the sciences to understand, even expect the likelihood of physical connections for many conditions. Heredity, lifestyle, environmental influences, etc. are probably all involved to greater and lesser degrees depending on the condition and subject, just as they are with other conditions like heart disease, obesity, cancers, etc.

In the end, why should brain disorders be much different than heart disorders, liver disorders, etc? To dismiss out of hand any physical connection is, in my opinion, naive, and to assume that every suicide is merely the result of flawed character is worse than naive.

OK, so we start out fairly equal, and I fall back on what I said: opinions are like assholes - everybody has 'em.

A lot of what you said is pretty non-controversial - as likely as not to be accurate. Yeah, likely the brain can have things go wrong just like other organs of the body. However, you aren't talking about mere neuroses when that sort of thing happens - strokes, Alzheimers, outside force trauma, etc. can cause a lot of serious shit. That is not what we are talking about at all, though, when the topic is depression or some other neurosis, which I would suggest, is nothing more than dealing with - or ignoring - what everybody goes through - the only variable factors being how rough (or not) a person's life is AND to what degree a person lets things get to him. At the beginning of this whole drawn out discussion, some people whined about cancer, poverty, various other diseases, and various other human conditions. Well, yeah! Of course those things exist, and they are cause for sympathy and maybe empathy. Even an admitted asshole like me is sympathetic about that sort of thing, but my original comeback, which I basically standby, is that the topic of this thread - so many people's beloved suicidal icon - didn't have any of that shit - oh, there was a maybe this and a maybe that, but basically, he was a rich talented guy with a life we all could only dream about, and he chose to off himself - to which I expressed a distinct lack of sympathy and absolutely no empathy. Even people with those maladies and conditions I mentioned only rarely stoop to suicide or drug addiction, but that wasn't even the case of what we were discussing in this thread. The guy had the NEUROSIS of depression - conjured up in his mind in spite of having that great life. Yet he did stoop to hard drug use, I don't know if addiction was ever proven - and suicide. We should be sympathetic or empathetic about THAT? Not me - if a bunch of the rest of you are, fine, that's your opinion/your attitude - be that way if you want to.

You seem to grasp very well the concept that yesterday's "FACTS" - actually "prevailing theories" - are today's outmoded thoughts. Yet you don't seem to grasp the concept that today's "FACTS" - the shit you and others in here eat up so heartily - is - or certainly could be - tomorrow's outmoded crap. And as ridiculous as a lot of it seems, that seems highly probable. "We don't yet understand" this or that data - duh! because it is usually extremely speculative, often conflicting, and when it goes against what the "researcher" hypothesizes in the first place, they throw it out as invalid hahahaha. BTW, you never commented on the HOW aspect of researching "brain chemistry" on a living person. I would speculate that it can't be done, but that's just ...... speculation.

[MJZiggy]

Yes, strokes, Alzheimers and outside force trauma all have something in common. They all typically cause depression. As does Parkinsons (which Williams had). Typically outmoded crap is something that has been built upon. We used to think that the best way to treat a joint injury was to keep it still. We now know that's all wrong, but no one suggests that joint injuries don't exist because the next treatment may be wrong too.

I would imagine that brain chemistry is tested exactly like liver chemistry is tested. Through blood samples, urine, tissue samples from stem cells, cadavers, etc. You can get lots of real facts and information that way. The fact that you speculate that it can't be done is very telling. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

[Patler]

...(What you wrote.)...

What we thought about most mental disorders in the past had no basis in physical scientific data, because there was little to no physical data. Today we have lots of data, and are constantly acquiring more data. The data are facts (with acknowledged collection errors usually identifiable eventually as outliers as more and more data is accumulated). but the data are facts only for the specific individuals from whom it was gathered. The "trick" is to discern from the accumulated personal facts of the individuals what personal facts are facts for the condition. For some factors, it is pretty easy to discern broad connections based on data prevalence, it is more difficult to distinguish cause and effect relationships for those factors without broad studies of the general population. That takes time. For other factors, like heredity, the cause and effect relationship is easy to see, but the mechanism by which it operates takes time to discover.

You keep asking how tests are taken. I have told you I do not know and do not care. Even if I did know, I wouldn't pretend to have the credentials to judge the validity of the method. Are you suggesting that it is merely conjured data, or if it is post mortem that it is meaningless?

By the way, to quote you:

What are YOUR credentials, if any? Do you have a valid claim to speculate better than I can speculate? Just asking hahahaha.

You haven't told us any, other than that you know how to read.

[Zool]

Debating with Tex is like sticking your dick in a meat grinder. Nothing positive is going to come of it and it's going to make you ask "WTF was I doing?" The guy still thinks you need to drill holes in people's heads to let the demons out.

[Patler]

Debating with Tex is like sticking your dick in a meat grinder. Nothing positive is going to come of it and it's going to make you ask "WTF was I doing?" The guy still thinks you need to drill holes in people's heads to let the demons out.

Is there a new way to get them out?

[texaspackerbacker]

Actually, drilling holes in the head is, I believe, still recognized as the most effective treatment for sub-dural hematoma - which I suppose was diagnosed long ago as demons hahahaha.

I didn't list any credentials because I don't have any - other than reading about stuff. I said we are starting out even because you basically didn't list anything that amounts to formal credentials either.

Yes, MANY have experienced that dick in a meat grinder effect pushing wrongheaded positions against me. I will never let that wrongheadedness go uncalled.

No, Ziggy, strokes, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, and outside force trauma absolute do NOT cause depression. They may often result in it, but there is a significant shade of difference between CAUSING and RESULTING IN. A Packer victory over the Vikings CAUSES the Packers to gain a game in the standings on the Vikings. It may RESULT IN depression for people in Minnesota, but some Minnesotans don't care about the Vikings, thus not letting themselves be affected by depression. Besides, think about it, you are contradicting one of Patler's prime points - physical causation of depression, as I don't think you are arguing that those things physically CAUSE depression, are you? That would be a real stretch.

Patler, you keep talking about "data", and I keep asking, HOW are you gonna get data on "brain chemistry" of a living person - short of using something more heavy duty than a drill? I would suggest that your "data" consists of theories and speculation, and then when a contrary speculator like that guy, Lehman, mentioned early in this thread comes along, you and the modernists you choose to go with conveniently ignore his "data" i.e. speculation - which is just as likely to be valid as the crap that fits your preconceived notion. Right?

[Patler]

Got your answer for you. Depending on what it is that you are testing for in brain chemistry, they use blood tests, urine tests, and.....wait for it......wait for it.....here it comes....cerebrospinal fluid. Makes sense, doesn't it?

[texaspackerbacker]

Got your answer for you. Depending on what it is that you are testing for in brain chemistry, they use blood tests, urine tests, and.....wait for it......wait for it.....here it comes....cerebrospinal fluid. Makes sense, doesn't it?

OK, Good Answer. But be sure to let me know when somebody bleeds or pisses out evidence of depression. I never had a spinal tap, but I understand they certainly are painful enough to result in depression hahahaha.

[Zool]

[George Cumby]

Juliet Foxtrot Charlie.

I typically give zero shits about entertainers that die too soon, but Williams made me laugh, was talented and entertaining. This one stings a little. RIP, mr. Williams.

I was going to respond to TPB is a rational way, but Fuggit, that's Patler's role.

Professionally, I've cleaned up enough suicides and fatals to last me a fucking lifetime. And I'll tell you something, you can't broad brush them. Some of them are sad, some are "good riddance", some are WTF, Over? But ALL are fucking tragedies for the families.

Rarely is suicide the cowards route. The overwhelming majority are the end of heartrending tales of abuse, violence, neglect, addiction, etc. don't hand me some bullshit line about depression being an excuse you sorry excuse for a human being.

I've scraped up the remains of many a schizophrenic that stopped protecting themselves. They are ALL tragedies for the families. The families watch their loved one unravel over the years, over the decades. A slow motion train wreck which they are powerless to stop. And it kills them, one little bit at a time as their loved one comes apart. The only consolation they have at the end is their loved ones suffering is over.

The mind body link isn't pop psychology bullshit. It is. The mind and the body are one and the same. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an ignorant, atavistic, fat headed buffoon.

[Zool]

Juliet Foxtrot Charlie.

I typically give zero shits about entertainers that die too soon, but Williams made me laugh, was talented and entertaining. This one stings a little. RIP, mr. Williams.

I was going to respond to TPB is a rational way, but Fuggit, that's Patler's role.

Professionally, I've cleaned up enough suicides and fatals to last me a fucking lifetime. And I'll tell you something, you can't broad brush them. Some of them are sad, some are "good riddance", some are WTF, Over? But ALL are fucking tragedies for the families.

Rarely is suicide the cowards route. The overwhelming majority are the end of heartrending tales of abuse, violence, neglect, addiction, etc. don't hand me some bullshit line about depression being an excuse you sorry excuse for a human being.

I've scraped up the remains of many a schizophrenic that stopped protecting themselves. They are ALL tragedies for the families. The families watch their loved one unravel over the years, over the decades. A slow motion train wreck which they are powerless to stop. And it kills them, one little bit at a time as their loved one comes apart. The only consolation they have at the end is their loved ones suffering is over.

The mind body link isn't pop psychology bullshit. It is. The mind and the body are one and the same. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an ignorant, atavistic, fat headed buffoon.

10 points for atavistic.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Professionally, I've cleaned up enough suicides and fatals to last me a fucking lifetime. And I'll tell you something, you can't broad brush them. Some of them are sad, some are "good riddance", some are WTF, Over? But ALL are fucking tragedies for the families.

Rarely is suicide the cowards route. The overwhelming majority are the end of heartrending tales of abuse, violence, neglect, addiction, etc. don't hand me some bullshit line about depression being an excuse you sorry excuse for a human being.

I've scraped up the remains of many a schizophrenic that stopped protecting themselves. They are ALL tragedies for the families. The families watch their loved one unravel over the years, over the decades. A slow motion train wreck which they are powerless to stop. And it kills them, one little bit at a time as their loved one comes apart. The only consolation they have at the end is their loved ones suffering is over.

The mind body link isn't pop psychology bullshit. It is. The mind and the body are one and the same. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an ignorant, atavistic, fat headed buffoon.

Your story reminds me of the show "Six Feet Under."

Good show. Watched first season, liked it, but stopped watching it. Too depressing.

[Tyrion Lannister]

A Packer victory over the Vikings CAUSES the Packers to gain a game in the standings on the Vikings. It may RESULT IN depression for people in Minnesota, but some Minnesotans don't care about the Vikings, thus not letting themselves be affected by depression.

Good point. I always get depressed when the Packers lose. Shit is worst when they lose in the playoffs.

My psychiatrist tells me to vent/post on an internet forum, so not to feel alone. It works sometimes.

[Patler]

Well, the coroners report is in.
Robin Williams had no alcohol or illegal drugs in his system. None whatsoever. They now have reported that he was suffering from a particularly fast developing form of dementia, that can result in all sorts of hullucinations.

[Freak Out]

I watched a loved one slip into dementia.....horrible.

I can see why he would kill himself if he had a diagnosis confirmed...and was starting to feel the effects.