What is 5x3?

[Patler]

Apparently, 5x3 is not 5+5+5. It is 3+3+3+3+3.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/10/2...80647726459443

Apart from the arithmetic calculation, is one restatement of the problem more correct than the other?

Does 5x3 mean five groups of three, not three groups of five?

Linguistically speaking, aren't both correct?

[mraynrand]

You should take theological questions to FYI

[Joemailman]

I would think the commutative law of multiplication makes either answer correct.
https://books.google.com/books?id=bN...%3D3x5&f=false

[Patler]

I would think the commutative law of multiplication makes either answer correct.
https://books.google.com/books?id=bN...%3D3x5&f=false

Apparently not, under the common core concepts discussed in the article.

This intrigued me, so I did some online research into what "common core" is all about. It seems to be an approach to teaching math that has its own set of "rules" that are claimed to be consistent with how math is taught in countries recognized to turn out better math students than the US. It's goal is to actually change the traditional ways that we think of or apply mathematical concepts. The website actually gave a similar example, stating that students are taught to understand that the phrase "5x7" means 5 groups of 7 items (apparently rather rigidly, because seven groups of five is not given full credit for an answer). It said that better prepares a young student for more advanced concepts down the line.

I could not find an example for addition; however it seems to me that we have traditionally taught that "2+4" means starting with a group of two and combining it with another group of four. The first group is changed by the addition of the second group. Applying that understanding to multiplication would seem to present the opposite result from what the common core example provides, that is "5x7" should mean a group of five replicated seven times. Common core teaches that it means five replications of a group of seven. If that sequence of understanding is applied to "2+4", are they now teaching the student to think that a group of two is added to an existing group of four?

It will be interesting to see what formulas common core teaches are correct answers from simple addition and multiplication fact patterns

[mraynrand]

Once you confuse the people, get them to distrust their own thoughts, convince them that only you know how to think, you have them.

[Patler]

Once you confuse the people, get them to distrust their own thoughts, convince them that only you know how to think, you have them.

Smacks of that, doesn't it?

[swede]

Apparently not, under the common core concepts discussed in the article.

This intrigued me, so I did some online research into what "common core" is all about. It seems to be an approach to teaching math that has its own set of "rules" that are claimed to be consistent with how math is taught in countries recognized to turn out better math students than the US. It's goal is to actually change the traditional ways that we think of or apply mathematical concepts. The website actually gave a similar example, stating that students are taught to understand that the phrase "5x7" means 5 groups of 7 items (apparently rather rigidly, because seven groups of five is not given full credit for an answer). It said that better prepares a young student for more advanced concepts down the line.

I could not find an example for addition; however it seems to me that we have traditionally taught that "2+4" means starting with a group of two and combining it with another group of four. The first group is changed by the addition of the second group. Applying that understanding to multiplication would seem to present the opposite result from what the common core example provides, that is "5x7" should mean a group of five replicated seven times. Common core teaches that it means five replications of a group of seven. If that sequence of understanding is applied to "2+4", are they now teaching the student to think that a group of two is added to an existing group of four?

It will be interesting to see what formulas common core teaches are correct answers from simple addition and multiplication fact patterns

Once you confuse the people, get them to distrust their own thoughts, convince them that only you know how to think, you have them.

I think you are correct, but crony capitalism--and not local ambitions--are the source of this kind of nonsense.

Throughout the entire arc of my teaching career, reading has been the focus of most of the research that has led to positive changes in classroom approaches. Simply enough, balanced reading programs incorporate early instruction in phonics, guided practice in well-matched materials, independent practice, and integrated writing tasks. Math programs have suffered greatly from a lack of serious effort to provide a similar theoretical bridge between research into the process of acquiring math skills and classroom instruction. Math and literacy are very different beasts, though, and classroom teachers at the elementary level are forced to trust the materials given to them.

The tragedy is the metestasizing of centralized educational bureaucracies that force high-functioning school districts to adopt mediocre, faulty, or incomplete k-12 curriculum guides. And many of the architects of the Common Core are representatives of Pearson, Heinemann, and other textbook giants. Design a mandated curriculum not much different from previous iterations, convince inexpert consumers of its essential nature, and then sell bazillions of dollars worth of Common Core-linked materials. What could go wrong?

Patler, any school board would be fortunate to have you as a member asking such questions. The fight for educational independence has to start at the local levels.

[wist43]

The purpose of government education is to "train", not teach.

Going back to Hegal, John Dewey, Pavlov, and B.F. Skinner... it's all about "behavior", self-esteem, and coming to "acceptable" conclusions in lieu of using logic, reason, and being able to think critically.

It's all about dumbing down the population to make them as ignorant and controllable as possible; while at the same time giving them enough technical skills to be able to semi-function in a tech economy.

Kids today, and Amerikans up into their 40's, are completely ignorant of history, the principles of freedom, the rule of law - and of course lack the skills to reason their way out of the trap they've been led into by the government schools.

Make no mistake - the elites who are pushing the buttons have no interest whatsoever in "educating" and producing self-sufficient, functioning citizens.

[red]

now i will admit, that when you see this stuff about the common core it seems pretty insane and stupid to me

but on the other hand, we aren't the world leaders in education by quite a ways, so maybe they way things are taught do have to change

and just because it doesn't make sense to us, doesn't mean its wrong. we just don't get it

when you first look at 5x3, i said its 15, and who gives a fuck how i came out with that. and i've thought that way ever sense i first read about common core, it all seems overly complicated. But then i just read that part that patler wrote about it "building" towards something, and trying to get kids to think in a different kind of way, and i thought, "ok, i do kinda get that idea"

so now i don't know what to think

[mraynrand]

I'd like to take a 2x4 to the Common Core

[3irty1]

I don't think this conspiracy goes all the way to the top or even past the creator of the idiotic quiz. Here's a link to the common core math standards. 3rd grade math starts on page 21, but you won't see any of the above nonsense codified in there. Its a short list of concepts a 3rd grader should understand, none of them particularly controversial. Nothing the national policy does or doesn't do is going to make the math teacher who gave this quiz a competent educator.

[wist43]

Try on this logic fellas...

Would any of you argue that the nuclear physicists, doctors, engineers, astronauts, mathematicians, et al that the Soviet Union, Russia, China, India, et al have produced - would you argue that they received a quality education??

If they can cipher better than Jethro Bodine, surely that speaks well of the education they received - no??

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What is wrong with that picture, and what is wrong with the United States and the top-down indoctrination system that is in place in this country?? Just like the average communist citizen, serf, caste victim, etc, Americans have been deliberately deprived a proper education from which they can use critical thinking skills to arrive at principled positions which would ensure that liberty survives for posterity.

Liberty is not on the agenda. The proper teaching of history is not on the agenda. Logical, rational, honest, scientific, critical thinking - is not on the agenda.

Math is important - but it is not the most important subject. Get the leftist, PC, authoritarian curriculum out of the schools - and the monsters that reside within the institutions that drive that curriculum out of the education process altogether, and I think you'd find the state of America's educational system improve immediately.

Sadly, we are well past that... too many generations have been subjected to the brain washing.

[mraynrand]

Try on this logic fellas...

Would any of you argue that the nuclear physicists, doctors, engineers, astronauts, mathematicians, et al that the Soviet Union, Russia, China, India, et al have produced - would you argue that they received a quality education??

If they can cipher better than Jethro Bodine, surely that speaks well of the education they received - no??

-----------------------------------------------------------------

What is wrong with that picture, and what is wrong with the United States and the top-down indoctrination system that is in place in this country?? Just like the average communist citizen, serf, caste victim, etc, Americans have been deliberately deprived a proper education from which they can use critical thinking skills to arrive at principled positions which would ensure that liberty survives for posterity.

Liberty is not on the agenda. The proper teaching of history is not on the agenda. Logical, rational, honest, scientific, critical thinking - is not on the agenda.

Math is important - but it is not the most important subject. Get the leftist, PC, authoritarian curriculum out of the schools - and the monsters that reside within the institutions that drive that curriculum out of the education process altogether, and I think you'd find the state of America's educational system improve immediately.

Sadly, we are well past that... too many generations have been subjected to the brain washing.

If I knew any history or was able to think logically, scientifically, ethically, honestly and rationally, I might agree with you. Otherwise - hey "The Apprentice" is on !!!!

[swede]

Try on this logic fellas...

Would any of you argue that the nuclear physicists, doctors, engineers, astronauts, mathematicians, et al that the Soviet Union, Russia, China, India, et al have produced - would you argue that they received a quality education??

If they can cipher better than Jethro Bodine, surely that speaks well of the education they received - no??

-----------------------------------------------------------------

What is wrong with that picture, and what is wrong with the United States and the top-down indoctrination system that is in place in this country?? Just like the average communist citizen, serf, caste victim, etc, Americans have been deliberately deprived a proper education from which they can use critical thinking skills to arrive at principled positions which would ensure that liberty survives for posterity.

Liberty is not on the agenda. The proper teaching of history is not on the agenda. Logical, rational, honest, scientific, critical thinking - is not on the agenda.

Math is important - but it is not the most important subject. Get the leftist, PC, authoritarian curriculum out of the schools - and the monsters that reside within the institutions that drive that curriculum out of the education process altogether, and I think you'd find the state of America's educational system improve immediately.

Sadly, we are well past that... too many generations have been subjected to the brain washing.

Outside of history/government classes it really isn't the curriculum that is the problem. Most kids are too shallow to benefit from the indoctrination anyway.

However, I would be inclined to accept your position that the entirety of all that is wrong with education is the covert insinuation of a vast liberal scheme to co-opt American education if you would agree with me that the path forward is not the insinuation of a vast conservative scheme to repair education (NCLB...cough cough) but a rapid and complete move to return educational control to states and communities and outlaw talk of federal "investments" in education forever.

Then you can run for your local school board and watch like a hawk to make sure that the commie pinkos can no longer run amok and subvert our youngsters. Or, better yet, you can work to convince your state to drop public education efforts in entirety and you can pay out of pocket to educate your children or attend to that matter in august halls of your own domicile without fear of intrusion. Whatever. I just don't want JEB! Bush involved any more than I want Hillary Clinton involved. Neither of them know my students as well as their parents and I do.

[Patler]

I don't think this conspiracy goes all the way to the top or even past the creator of the idiotic quiz. Here's a link to the common core math standards. 3rd grade math starts on page 21, but you won't see any of the above nonsense codified in there. Its a short list of concepts a 3rd grader should understand, none of them particularly controversial. Nothing the national policy does or doesn't do is going to make the math teacher who gave this quiz a competent educator.

It wasn't just the teacher, because I found a Common Core website that gave examples (mentioned in my second post) and did the same thing, full credit for one answer, partial for the other. Even your website hints at it:

Interpret products of whole numbers, e.g., interpret 5×7 as the total number of objects in 5 groups of 7 objects each.

It makes no mention of 7 groups of 5 objects, even though in following statements it refers to the commutative property.