Al Gore win Nobel Peace Prize

[Kiwon]

Hamas. Read their literature. They are a terrorist group that wants to eliminate Israel and the Jews.

Hamas grew in response to the foolish, expansionist policies of Ariel Sharon and other Isreali right wingers. Sharon systematically undermined moderate Palestinean leaders. Near the end of Sharon's life, he saw the futility of his ways and did a 180 degree flip. He broke from Likud, formed a new party prepared to relenquish territories. But the damage was done.

Palestineans did not vote for Hamas because of their hardline ideology. Rather, they rejected Fatah because of its rampant corruption and incompetence. This is basic stuff, you are uninformed.

Solid majorities of both Israeli and Palestinean populations support a two state solution. A fight to the death is not inevitable. The broad outlines of a settlement are there. The holdup is the political disarray and social/economic collapse of the Palestineans. Maybe you noticed they just had a little civil war. Tony Blair has been tasked by the United Nations with helping to rebuild Palestinean institutions.

Therefore, as one can clearly see, Hamas is not a terrorist group whose literature speaks about the elimination of Israel and the Jews.

This is basic stuff, mraynrand. Get a

[3irty1]

I can't believe I just read all that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Therefore, as one can clearly see, Hamas is not a terrorist group whose literature speaks about the elimination of Israel and the Jews.

Their literature does not speak about the elimination of the Jews. But they play a sematics game: they recognize the reality of Israel but not the legitimacy. Hamas itself is divided over whether to negotiate with Israel. Hamas is not some punk terrorist group, they seek international legitimacy. They also tacitly condone acts of terrorism, no doubt about that. They do not support the peace process, they are a negative force. You can think of Hamas as the Palestinean equivalent of the Likud Party in Israeli politics.

Hamas are at war with Al Quaeda, and other (relatively) more extreme Islamic Fundamentalists. They have been purging various Fundamentalist and criminal gangs in the Gaza Strip. The recent freeing of that journalist held hostage in Gaza was the result of Hamas breaking-up a terrorist cell. Hamas being in charge of Gaza is not an entirely bad thing, it forces them to act more responsibly.

You have to keep in mind that Israel & the Palestineans have essentially been at war for 60 years. It is not surprising that you have support on both sides for a military solution. Plenty of Israelis would like to see the Palestinean population "transferred" to other Arab countries. And unfortunately, the Palestinean population grew frustrated and radical after the collapse of the peace process in the late 90's. Likud and Hamas both ascended, hand in hand, partners in extremism. Hamas was a fringe party before that era.

Hamas is going to have to be brought into the peace process, eventually. They have a lot of legitimacy in Palestineans eyes because they have been so much more competent at delivering social services than the corrupt Fatah Party, Arafat's legacy.

I have a lot of faith in the current Israeli government. Ariel Sharon was the father and guiding force of the Israeli settlement movement for 30 years. He more than anyone is responsibile for the tragic situation we see today. The current Israeli government comes from the centrist party that Sharon formed shortly before his death. A lot of lights have gone off in Israeli heads since Sharon had his dramatic epiphany.

The problem for Israel is not Hamas, even though they represent endless war. The problem is a lack of a credible alternative to Hamas. That's the problem the International community is trying to tackle now. But they shouldn't overplay their hand in isolating/vilifying Hamas, Hamas is too powerful to ignore.

[mraynrand]

Map of Israel Shown in Palestinian Colors
By Julie Stahl
CNSNews.com Jerusalem Bureau Chief
October 18, 2007

Jerusalem (CNSNews.com) - At a time when Israel and the Palestinians are discussing their respective visions for the creation of a Palestinian state, the official Palestinian Authority television station has broadcast images of an Israeli map draped with a Palestinian flag.

mapThe video clip, which aired as a filler between programs on October 11, showed a map of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip colored red at the top -- with green, white and black stripes down the middle of the state. The caption read "Palestine 2007," the Palestinian Media Watch said in a release on Wednesday.

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas demanded last week that the Palestinians be given a state of 6,205 square kilometers that would include the Gaza Strip, West Bank and eastern Jerusalem -- land conquered by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War.

The image broadcast on the official Palestinian Authority television station reinforces those demands: "The message they [Palestinians] have conveyed to their people for years, and continue to convey on the eve of the [U.S.-hosted] conference, is that 'Palestine' exists and it replaces all of Israel," PMW said.

According to PMW, the same message is prevalent throughout children's school textbooks, children's television programs, crossword puzzles, video clips, formal symbols, and school and street names.

"The picture painted for the Palestinian population, both verbally and visually, is of a world without Israel," the group said.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas demanded last week that the Palestinians be given a state of 6,205 square kilometers that would include the Gaza Strip, West Bank and eastern Jerusalem -- land conquered by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War.

this is the Palestinean bargaining position. And the Isrealis are prepared to give something fairly close to this, I suspect.

The image broadcast on the official Palestinian Authority television station reinforces those demands: "The message they [Palestinians] have conveyed to their people for years, and continue to convey on the eve of the [U.S.-hosted] conference, is that 'Palestine' exists and it replaces all of Israel," PMW said.

According to PMW, the same message is prevalent throughout children's school textbooks, children's television programs, crossword puzzles, video clips, formal symbols, and school and street names.

"The picture painted for the Palestinian population, both verbally and visually, is of a world without Israel," the group said.

And these quotes are an interpretation of an image on TV by a right-wing Israeli advocacy group. http://www.pmw.org.il/

Ayn, there are plenty of Palestineans who would drive the Isrealis into the sea. Most of them, no doubt. That doesn't mean they have the means or ambitions to do so.

edit: that website is pretty interesting, it shows that the Palestineans really, really hate the Israelis. A political settlement can't wait for cordial relations. I think cordial relations will come, though.

[Joemailman]

Bombing In Pakistan

Delete.

[Harlan Huckleby]

very good thing that she survived. i guess if Mushariff can stay alive, maybe they can keep her alive too. wow, what a close call.

[Joemailman]

Sorry Harlan, I moved the post to a new thread.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ya, I figured that out all by myself.

It's ok, I'll just change some of the names in my post and it will fit in here just fine.

[RashanGary]

God gave Israel to the Jews according to the bible.

Then Muslims overtook the land and onwed it for a couple thousand years. Then, Jews decided they wanted the land back. Jews declared war on the Arab state and took the land that god granted to the Jews back.

Palestinians get angry and continue fighting for what was theirs for hundreds of years.



For perspective, if I write a holy book saying that such and such land is supposed to be in my name, does that mean that the UN will support me? Really, that is what is happening here. The Jews think they have right to land that was not theirs for thousands of years, if ever. The UN somehow ruled that the Jews get the land. Arabs don't agree and are fighting a brutal fight to get it back.

Seems like an ugly situation of which neither side is doing any good for the world. The Jews didn't do any good killing people to get what they believed was theirs back and the Palestinians aren't doing any good killing to get it back on their end. Ultimately it's a big religious holy war. I find those who give the Jews a free pass more ignorant than HH who's saying both have done and continue to do harm.

[Harlan Huckleby]

for a second there, I thought the real Borat had checked in. (Just the multiple references to Jews. )

Is nice - high five!!

[Tyrone Bigguns]

God gave Israel to the Jews according to the bible.

Then Muslims overtook the land and onwed it for a couple thousand years. Then, Jews decided they wanted the land back. Jews declared war on the Arab state and took the land that god granted to the Jews back.

Palestinians get angry and continue fighting for what was theirs for hundreds of years.



For perspective, if I write a holy book saying that such and such land is supposed to be in my name, does that mean that the UN will support me? Really, that is what is happening here. The Jews think they have right to land that was not theirs for thousands of years, if ever. The UN somehow ruled that the Jews get the land. Arabs don't agree and are fighting a brutal fight to get it back.

Seems like an ugly situation of which neither side is doing any good for the world. The Jews didn't do any good killing people to get what they believed was theirs back and the Palestians aren't doing any good killing to get it back on their end. Ultimately it's a big religious holy war. I find those who give the Jews a free pass more ignorant than HH who's saying both have done and continue to do harm.

You really need to go back and learn some history.

Muslims overtook and owned it for a couple of thousand years? Say what.
THAT IS JUST FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

Considering that from 11th century BCE to approx 0 it was ruled by Jewish kingdoms/states then ruled by various empires until around the middle of the 6th century CE when Muslims conquests took it from Byzantine rule.

So, that leaves around 1400 years, of which control went from various Muslim groups..some more aligned with shieks than anything else and Crusaders (ooops, those guys aren't muslim).

From the 15th century on it was part of the Ottoman empire.I would hardly classify the Ottoman Empire as Muslim considering it was multi-ethnic and multi-religious and viewed itself as the heir to both roman and islamic traditions. Perhaps you need to talk to them about their evacuation of Muslims and Jews from Spain to the safety of Ottoman lands during the Spanish Inquisition.

We can call them a muslim empire, but then I would expect you to call the british empire the Christian Empire.

Please explain why jews left israel/palestine. Oh, and while you are at it, I guess you should try and learn that jews had been living continuously in palestine since they first arrived there.

And, after that try researching "aliyah" and when the zionist movement started.

What war did "the jews" declare on the arab state. Oh, btw, let's stop saying Jews and call them israelis if that is what you are referring to.

What war did the Israeli's enact?

[Scott Campbell]

Oh, btw, let's stop saying Jews and call them israelis if that is what you are referring to.

Yeah, this is PackerRats. Let's keep it politically correct fellas.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Tyrone, I don't get why you are being so argumentive.

Any honest person recognizes that the Palestineans took it up the butt in the 1940's. What do you suppose the right of return issue is about? That was certainly a war, even if saying the Jews (and that term is perfectly descriptive) declared war on the Arabs is inaccurate. The Arabs would see the formation of Israel as an act of war.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Oh, btw, let's stop saying Jews and call them israelis if that is what you are referring to.

Yeah, this is PackerRats. Let's keep it politically correct fellas.

Scott, this has nothing to do with being PC.

Jews didn't declare war...I certainly don't recall american jewry, etc. declaring war.