Is Aaron Rodgers even good anymore?

[pbmax]

Pro Tip: you Google R-E-L-A-X even now and you still get a lot of Frankie Goes to Hollywood results first :D

2015 saw the year of the great McCarthy-Rodgers offensive slowdown. We might have seen a preview of it in 2014, but its hard to distinguish between no huddle struggles, integrating Eddie Lacy into the offense and the fact that the slowdown last exactly three games. I think they beat the Bears in week 4 to start a win streak.

2015 was bad and the reason most often given was the absence of Jordy Nelson, hurt in the preseason. This was one of the years that a decent job by Capers and the D was lost because of the news on the other side of the ball (12th in points yielded, 15th in yards, DVOA ranked them 9th on D).

On the offensive side, you add the previous disfunction (Lacy was mediocre and so was the running game, susceptibility to four man rush and man coverage) to the new disfunction (lack of all Pro talent at wideout) and you got a preview of 2018 (15th points, 23 in yards and ranked 11th in DVOA)

But the other problem that was clear in 2015 was that the no huddle wasn't really a hurry up. Yes, Rodgers could punish a team for substituting late, but the Packers weren't running huge numbers of plays compared to the rest of the League. So tiring out the defenses pass rush required long drives with many plays, something this offense with Rodgers has never done well.

So to tire out the pass rush, you needed a long drive with a large number of plays AND you had to do it with the base offenses personnel (11 personnel almost always, Lacy, Quarless, Jones, Cobb and Boykin?) because if you subbed, then the defense can sub and the umpire stands on the ball to prevent you from snapping it. McCarthy started out wanting more plays, but what he got instead was less substitution.

This never really worked as a full solution to stopping a good pass rush. What did finally work was Bach getting drafted and Bulaga being healthy. But both of these guys would get hurt at key times and the offense has never had effective solution to this without them healthy.

What did emerge in 2015 was the obvious Rodgers extended play offense. But this version seemed more necessary, planned and obvious. Neither Cobb nor Jones excelled like Adams or Nelson at getting past man coverage quickly and McCarthy usually did not try to scheme them open immediately with bunches or picks or motion. Rodgers alone was good enough that a good pass rush could be negated by him moving in the pocket or bailing left or right to buy time for someone to get open.

But again, this wasn't part of the base offense. It was an addition, not a full offensive scheme. The no huddle never really solved the pass rush problem as the head coach envisioned, it became a limited substitution scheme.

And to ask the QB to play the extended offense for an entire game was madness, like the 2018 adjustments, it couldn't be done. Until the second half of 2016.

[pbmax]

The extended play offense is another invitation (like the unblocked Atlanta pass rusher) to get your QB killed. Its not a good solution to run an offense on when you have a franchise guy back there. Maybe if you are doing the mobile QB (which rodgers was at this point) and had mobile backups you could do it. But with a franchise player being paid like a franchise guy, its crazy. You'd need three guys with the starter being something of a bargain.

However in 2016, run the table, they ran this offense into the playoffs and straight into the NFL Championship game. Had the win streak started a game or two later (or if voters could have seen the Dallas playoff win before voting) Rodgers bags his third MVP this year, but Matt Ryan was too good start to finish and Brady was good enough to siphon away voters not convinced by Matty Noodle Arm.

The run the table offense is also not part of the McCarthy offense. Its not installed in the offseason, drilled in camp or repped in practice during the season. They do talk about it in meetings, but Rodgers doesn't get a practice segment to install it.

in 2017 he gets drilled by Barr and surprisingly, the McCarthy offense stalls with a backup QB. Hmmm. Funny that former first round pick and McCarthy favorite DeShone Kizer didn't look ready for that offense either.

In summation, since the great 2014 offense, all the good offensive play by the Packers has been Rodgers running something OTHER than the McCarthy offense.

And you wonder why he changes the play? You think he is insubordinate? He is the only reason the franchise is afloat on offense.

If McCarthy's offense has the answers, where is your evidence since 2014? Who besides Matt Flynn (who threw all those TDs with Rodgers calling the plays remember?) has McCarthy successfully run his offense with? And outside of one great Detroit game and a gutty performance in NE, was Flynn really that good?

McCarthy, who is a great head coach and formerly a great offensive mind, never fixed his offense after KC, the Giants, SF and Seattle figured out how to stifle it.

Why did McCarthy never respond to Rodgers sniping*? Because his offense didn't work for four years unless Rodgers added to it.


*McCarthy is by all accounts a very nice man as well. He is also a good head coach so he knows public sniping with the QB won't help. He also wants to work again.

[pbmax]

So what happens now?

I was an early adopter (not close to the first though) that Favre's time with the team was done after he had clearly decided he needed to be the GM as well. Plus the Hamlet routine of contemplating retirement that first appeared in public in 2000/2001 with Peter King at SI MMQB. I hope everyone at this point realizes that Favre's retirement contemplation was a substitute for a trade demand, because he knew a trade demand would play poorly with his public image. He's one of the smartest people to have played the game.

Is Rodgers at this point? I don't think so, but here is the evidence:

He's full tilt diva
1. Mad that Nelson was gone (Jones too in less aggressive way)
2. Mad at his coach publicly
3. Changing plays at line against McCarthy's call
4. Mad at his young receivers
5. Body language

He's frustrated with a scheme that has been eclipsed
1. Still doing press conferences where he actually engages, doesn't filibuster and answers questions about being frosty with his head coach
2. Isn't sniping at the GM (that we know about)
3. Isn't inserting himself into the coaching search (that we know about)
4. Somehow found a way to work with a young WR named Adams
5. Lobbied for the TEs to be used more in the offense (Cook mainly)
6. Lobbied for Jones even though this put Rodgers at more risk
7. Hasn't contemplated retirement or asked for a trade

I am still on the side that believes Rodgers is still part of the team and just wants to win AND believed that the offense had to go. But I do acknowledge that Rodgers on this day, is closer to the Favre model than ever before. We'll see how he reacts to a new coach.

[ThunderDan]

I say again, ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.

Old man yells at cloud!

[red]

Old man yells at cloud!

https://i.imgur.com/GcRxI08.jpg

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Did Pb just write a novel? I’m gonna need the Cliffsmnotes..

[pbmax]

The other open question about Rodgers is his health and accuracy. He no longer seems to be able to throw from bad positions and be accurate, but the extent to which that is true is hard to determine given the early injury this year and the young receivers. He has a lot less problem throwing to Adams than the young WRs.

Its possible he can no longer be Plastic Man and still bomb away across the field. The new offense will need to account for whatever drop there has been and get him a cleaner pocket nd insist on some faster reads. But the first step is acquiring a tackle and possibly a new Guard.

[beveaux1]

PB, I appreciate the work you put into your notes. I agree that MMs offense was dysfunctional and could not be used without proper personnel. The proper personnel meant that an infusion of high round WRs had to be drafted every couple of years and those WRs needed to learn the intricacies of that system over a 3 to 4 year period. It appears that the breakdown occurred when those early picks had to be used for defense. That might have been when MM broke with TT to some extent. I'd speculate that MM felt that free agency could have been used to supplement the defense so that his offense could get the players he needed to continue to run his scheme. In some respects, our continued success also contributed to it's failure because of draft position and stubbornness on both TTs and MMs part.

[woodbuck27]

PB, I appreciate the work you put into your notes. I agree that MMs offense was dysfunctional and could not be used without proper personnel. The proper personnel meant that an infusion of high round WRs had to be drafted every couple of years and those WRs needed to learn the intricacies of that system over a 3 to 4 year period. It appears that the breakdown occurred when those early picks had to be used for defense. That might have been when MM broke with TT to some extent. I'd speculate that MM felt that free agency could have been used to supplement the defense so that his offense could get the players he needed to continue to run his scheme. In some respects, our continued success also contributed to it's failure because of draft position and stubbornness on both TTs and MMs part.

I agree with your analysis and pbmax your like wow just oh wow and the pseudo insider.

[Rutnstrut]

If what you are suggesting is true - than McCarthy's offense wasn't working - then I can see why Rodgers got frustrated. And this is probably why McCarthy is no longer employed by GB. I have a feeling a new HC and offensive staff could be just the elixir to get Rodgers back on track.

A new head coach won't do any good if Gute doesn't give him what he needs to run the kind of offense he wants. I do agree that stubby was bad for this team. Hopefully the new coach will be more flexible and call an offense that plays to his players strengths. I also hope that Rodgers will buy into whatever the new guy wants to do.

[pbmax]

A new head coach won't do any good if Gute doesn't give him what he needs to run the kind of offense he wants. I do agree that stubby was bad for this team. Hopefully the new coach will be more flexible and call an offense that plays to his players strengths. I also hope that Rodgers will buy into whatever the new guy wants to do.

Well, I think part of this falls on the coach. If you can only coach an offense one way, you might be useless in most situations.

The Patriots run an offense with a 6th round pick at QB, usually only 1-2 high picks on the O line, a high for the position drafted TE and refuse at WR. And it works just fine.

They spend picks and cash on CB and pass rushing but versatile players.

You cannot regularly construct the talent the 2011 Packer offense had with consistently. A coach who can dominate with that talent is good, but will spend half his years struggling.

[Bretsky]

Well, I think part of this falls on the coach. If you can only coach an offense one way, you might be useless in most situations.

The Patriots run an offense with a 6th round pick at QB, usually only 1-2 high picks on the O line, a high for the position drafted TE and refuse at WR. And it works just fine.

They spend picks and cash on CB and pass rushing but versatile players.

You cannot regularly construct the talent the 2011 Packer offense had with consistently. A coach who can dominate with that talent is good, but will spend half his years struggling.



I question whether it's really fair to compare any team with the Patriots. In terms of coaching staffs and how prepared they are, they seem to be a combined Alabama/Clemson while the rest of the staffs are the other college football teams.

[pbmax]

I question whether it's really fair to compare any team with the Patriots. In terms of coaching staffs and how prepared they are, they seem to be a combined Alabama/Clemson while the rest of the staffs are the other college football teams.

OK, how about late term Cowher Steelers with the Whiz and a run game and a rookie QB? If bleeping Ken Whisenhunt (and later Bruce Arians) can do it, it can be duplicated.

Harbaugh retooled his offense midseason to start Kaepernick. This isn't rocket science.

In fact, I suspect the way to go isn't the KC/Rams model because those offenses require physical mismatches. You can get those for awhile, but it doesn't last. I want a flexible base offense.

If your coach says after a struggle with the offense for a season that they need less work on new plays, routes and scheme and need to concentrate on fundamentals and win 1 on 1 and it still doesn't work, you are officially out of ideas. Or your coaching staff stinks.

The same traits that made McCarthy a good head coach ended up making him a very poor coordinator at the end.

[pbmax]

OK, last thoughts on how Rodgers and McCarthy combined to torpedo the offense. Not actively, but through neglect and a failure to reconsider the approach.

Rodgers had issues as a young QB. He held the ball too long at times and had happy feet in his first year. He also loved throwing to the sidelines more than the middle of the field, which is a predilection not uncommon among QBs (right versus left, short/long, sideline/middle).

But he mastered his in pocket moves and calmed his feet down while also mastering the Favre-Ian art of never throwing with your feet planted. He never quite got over the hold the ball too long because he was athletic enough to get away with it often AND had receivers that would make a defense pay for playing man for 5+ seconds. Also remember when in 2009 McCarthy made adjustments to the offense so that Rodgers could beat a good Cowboy defense with a fantastic pass rush? If only we were all that young still.

However, this isn't the growth curve of a recalcitrant uncoachable brat. But it also means that one major problem these days, holding the ball when he shouldn't, is still a problem when the offense doesn't have dynamic talent edges. Its not going to get better as its pretty clear Rodgers has slowed down some. He has been caught from behind a lot in the last two years.

Its an open question to me whether this is the result of the too slow to change offense or if its a habit he will never break in bad situations. The QB who delivered a prefect strike to Jennings for a TD in the Super Bowl in between two of the best safeties on the planet doesn't show up as much these days. Talent drain, distrust of offense or loss of nerve? I suspect the first two because his numbers in tight windows this year are pretty good, but I cannot know for certain. McCarthy's offense hasn't stressed progressions, unless Rodgers was injured, for years.

Speaking of the coach, we have discussed McCarthy offense in general terms during the slowdown that began in earnest in 2015. One thing McCarthy refused to do again after 2015 is commit to more scheme changes to help the offense adjust to the loss of the ability to break man coverage. This was a watershed moment and it leads directly to the offensive woes in 2016 and the disconnect he had with the QB that carried into 2018. The tweaks M3 made in 2015 disappeared and they relied on Nelson against man coverage, who was a shell of his former self. The best part of 2015 was James Jones game hoodie, which should tell you all you need to know about that year.

By now it was common to see online tape eaters complain that the offense (11 personnel more than 75% of the time) was vanilla and ran too many ISO routes. No one got open early. No motion, not bunches, no crossing patterns and few picks or screens. Instead, the offense we got in 2016 was fixed not by the 2015 tweaks (that included some screens but also some mesh patterns and a few bunches) but by the extended offense, where Rodger would handout patterns like a sandlot (but often to only one side of the field, which is the cause of those 7 yard stop turnaround and stare routes we saw so often) and then wait to see what happened to the coverage after 3 seconds. He really called plays that broke early except to free up other routes. Ironically, one of the routes they ran to great effect in the extended offense were crossers and fade routes with a finally healthy Cooks.

The offensive explosion in 2016 that nearly netted another MVP was Rodgers devising things at the LOS, not in a hurry up and not as part of the game plan and not part of the base offense.

McCarthy did not adopt changes that would solve this problem. Even in 2017, the few bunches, mesh and crossers they saw were ineffectual (some of this was personnel, they missed Cooks) and obviously not part of the signature offense. In crunch time, you wouldn't see these plays. They were often part of the script when Rodgers was given input to the first 15 selections. Rodgers never seemed comfortable with them (think of preferring to throw to the sideline versus middle of the field) and I don't think M3 fully adopted these changes into the base offense. So just like the first 15 play script in 2018, changes that might have helped the offense and saved Rodgers the necessity of the extended offense were not a major focus of McCarthy's offensive plan. He still thought they would dominate through 11 personnel and ISO routes. He did not spend the offseason in 2017 or 18 adding these things to his base offense and drilling it in camp like he could have. So the entire offense developed bad habits.

You still never saw motion pre snap unless Rodgers reads something in the D OR needs to get a read on the coverage. Its never used to free someone up in coverage.

The entire League was using this stuff to break man coverage but not the Packers. And that failure to adjust broke McCarthy and Rodgers.



* One major different between 2018 and 2016 is that Cooks on a crossing route was a nightmare to catch up with. Graham could be caught by most linebackers.

[Carolina_Packer]

I'm really thinking hard if there is anything I don't like hahahahaha. Sometimes it seems like Mr. Rodgers gets a little bit stubborn and perfectionistic when it comes to not throwing to a receiver who isn't exactly on the mark where he's supposed to be. It also seems like sometimes - maybe a lot of times, Rodgers de-emphasizes the young guys. We saw that with Janis and maybe a couple of others. He seems to be doing better now with MVS and St. Brown, though - or maybe they are doing better.

The first sentence in the paragraph above really resonated with me. I have thought that before too. He is willing to go "playground football" if he has to, but still within a system.

I believe it was the Jets post game presser where Rodgers said something very interesting to me. Perhaps he's alluded to it before, but it seemed pretty telling. Reporters were asking him about the time it has taken to click with the young receivers this year, given that all the contributors have been with him since May, TC and the season to that point. He said it's take so long because of what he termed "details", I guess meaning that they get the details of a play, route concept, route depth, scramble drill comeback route, blocking, etc. correct. Hey, let's call it like it is. BG drafted and kept three new receivers. That's no small thing. Two of our established receivers were either down for most of the year (Allison) or may as well have been down for most of the year (Cobb), as he played, but you can tell he was fighting injuries while trying to contribute. Two of the new guys would not have had the snaps that they had if we had our experienced guys healthy. Jimmy Graham not having the anticipated impact also affected the outcome.

At some point you have to work with the guys the team gives you to work with. I'm going to just guess that Rodgers is a perfectionist. I think I'm right. :-) it's probably harder for a perfectionist to work with inexperienced players who do not pick things up quickly. Perhaps in the end, BG should have considered signing an experienced receiver before or right after the draft, to plan for the possibility that our experienced receiver depth would be challenged. He kind of took a TT approach to addressing this position. I'm not saying there was a great/affordable option out there, but someone here may come up with a name of someone that would fit the bill, and that wouldn't have been a big cap hit (not counting Jeff Janis once he got released). :)

[pbmax]

The first sentence in the paragraph above really resonated with me. I have thought that before too. He is willing to go "playground football" if he has to, but still within a system.

I believe it was the Jets post game presser where Rodgers said something very interesting to me. Perhaps he's alluded to it before, but it seemed pretty telling. Reporters were asking him about the time it has taken to click with the young receivers this year, given that all the contributors have been with him since May, TC and the season to that point. He said it's take so long because of what he termed "details", I guess meaning that they get the details of a play, route concept, route depth, scramble drill comeback route, blocking, etc. correct. Hey, let's call it like it is. BG drafted and kept three new receivers. That's no small thing. Two of our established receivers were either down for most of the year (Allison) or may as well have been down for most of the year (Cobb), as he played, but you can tell he was fighting injuries while trying to contribute. Two of the new guys would not have had the snaps that they had if we had our experienced guys healthy. Jimmy Graham not having the anticipated impact also affected the outcome.

At some point you have to work with the guys the team gives you to work with. I'm going to just guess that Rodgers is a perfectionist. I think I'm right. :-) it's probably harder for a perfectionist to work with inexperienced players who do not pick things up quickly. Perhaps in the end, BG should have considered signing an experienced receiver before or right after the draft, to plan for the possibility that our experienced receiver depth would be challenged. He kind of took a TT approach to addressing this position. I'm not saying there was a great/affordable option out there, but someone here may come up with a name of someone that would fit the bill, and that wouldn't have been a big cap hit (not counting Jeff Janis once he got released). :)


This is the basic problem of running two offenses. Its hard enough to learn one as a rookie, its ridiculous to ask for two.

Manning was this way too and I bet most vets feel this way. But had the offense recovered better scheme-wise from the slowdown of the no huddle approach, I feel like this would be less of an issue.

[Fritz]

One thing I hope Gute will do is to quit looking much at need and go BPA, BPA, BPA, with the only exception maybe being centers/guards.

I read something the other day about some hotshot Pittsburgh receiver named JuJu Simon-Schuster or something, and he was taken apparently just after the Packers picked Josh Jones. At that time, I don't think there was a big wide-receiver need that was perceived, whereas a safety was needed.

But wouldn't it have been nice to have that guy catching the ball this year alongside Adams? And Josh Jones wasn't that great anyway, so did he really fill a need?

Go BPA, Gute. You'll need that player if he's talented and knows how to play, no matter what position.

I think Thompson's mistake was to try to fill holes with his draft picks, in the order of the size of the hole. So he thought he needed corners more than outside linebackers, having Matthews and Perry on the roster, so he picked Kevin King instead of TJ Watt.

Go BPA. Please. You'll use the guy if he knows how to play.

[Rutnstrut]

A few points. One, I also don't believe it's fair to compare any team to the Patriots. Yet they are the ones I continually find myself going back to. That may be because they are my second favorite team.

B, I do believe that part of AR's problems is lack of nerve. Also the perfectionist deal doesn't hold up.There are other vet QB's that so fine with rookie/different receivers (Tom Brady).

3, AR is "broken", he's still decent but far from great. If he doesn't get fixed and this team doesn't get great on defense. The Packers will not even sniff another Superb Owl with AR as QB.

[red]

One thing I hope Gute will do is to quit looking much at need and go BPA, BPA, BPA, with the only exception maybe being centers/guards.

I read something the other day about some hotshot Pittsburgh receiver named JuJu Simon-Schuster or something, and he was taken apparently just after the Packers picked Josh Jones. At that time, I don't think there was a big wide-receiver need that was perceived, whereas a safety was needed.

But wouldn't it have been nice to have that guy catching the ball this year alongside Adams? And Josh Jones wasn't that great anyway, so did he really fill a need?

Go BPA, Gute. You'll need that player if he's talented and knows how to play, no matter what position.

I think Thompson's mistake was to try to fill holes with his draft picks, in the order of the size of the hole. So he thought he needed corners more than outside linebackers, having Matthews and Perry on the roster, so he picked Kevin King instead of TJ Watt.

Go BPA. Please. You'll use the guy if he knows how to play.

That might work now that free agency is a real option

But it also leads to doing things like selecting cbs with your first picks in back to back drafts, even though you have needs everywhere else

[pbmax]

B, I do believe that part of AR's problems is lack of nerve. Also the perfectionist deal doesn't hold up.There are other vet QB's that so fine with rookie/different receivers (Tom Brady).

Tell that to Brandin Cooks.

Brady hasn't dealt with 2 regularly playing rookies and a broken down TE in years. They almost always import low cost vets (Gordon).

Rodgers went out of his way to make it work with Cooks (good result) and Graham (mediocre results). He lobbied for more involvement for both, especially Cooks. But someone wanted a blocking TE who could catch (Bennett).

Rodgers loved Adams from the get go.

He isn't as accurate as he was, cannot throw from bad angles like he once could and cannot escape like he once did. All of those are valid concerns that have now stretched over 2 seasons. The rookie WRs are a different challenge.

[pbmax]

That might work now that free agency is a real option

But it also leads to doing things like selecting cbs with your first picks in back to back drafts, even though you have needs everywhere else

Maybe. But CBs were definitely need picks in last two drafts. If they went BPA is the 2018 draft again, you could arguably have had (without trading down) Davenport or one of the Edmundseses.

[Pugger]

One thing I hope Gute will do is to quit looking much at need and go BPA, BPA, BPA, with the only exception maybe being centers/guards.

I read something the other day about some hotshot Pittsburgh receiver named JuJu Simon-Schuster or something, and he was taken apparently just after the Packers picked Josh Jones. At that time, I don't think there was a big wide-receiver need that was perceived, whereas a safety was needed.

But wouldn't it have been nice to have that guy catching the ball this year alongside Adams? And Josh Jones wasn't that great anyway, so did he really fill a need?

Go BPA, Gute. You'll need that player if he's talented and knows how to play, no matter what position.

I think Thompson's mistake was to try to fill holes with his draft picks, in the order of the size of the hole. So he thought he needed corners more than outside linebackers, having Matthews and Perry on the roster, so he picked Kevin King instead of TJ Watt.

Go BPA. Please. You'll use the guy if he knows how to play.

I think Ted got into trouble by picking for need during his last couple of drafts instead of BPA.

[pbmax]

OK, new theory time or does this fit with people’s current expectations?

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/tom-oates-new-packers-coach-matt-lafleur-must-get-aaron/article_16ea8f5b-f47d-5298-944a-af3c95bfb48d.html


One of Rodgers’ complaints about McCarthy was he wasn’t always available for film study and game-planning sessions. With respected defensive coordinator Mike Pettine remaining on board in Green Bay, LaFleur should be able to concentrate on getting Rodgers and the offense squared away, similar to what McVay did in Los Angeles with defensive coordinator Wade Phillips.


Maybe they literally drifted apart in their conception of the offense?

Maybe McCarthy needed someone other than his QB to tell him that his offense was no longer up to snuff?

Please also notice that a play calling LaFluer will be in the same boat as McCarthy as far as a closed feedback system goes.

[gbgary]

I think Ted got into trouble by picking for need during his last couple of drafts instead of BPA.

if you don't draft for need you still have that need...especially in the first round. bpa is for teams who are already in great shape. the Packers aren't that. tt's personnel miscalculations (hyde/hayward) compounded things. king's inability to stay on the field will affect early picks this year for a cb unless they address it in free agency. this draft is going to be heavy on the D side of the ball again.

[Fritz]

I disagree. The things you think you don't "need" often becomes the things you find are your greatest assets a couple years hence.

The Packers didn't "need" Aaron Rodgers when they took him. Packer fans went berserk. Thank god Ted took him.

And that Pittsburgh receiver - JuJu Simon-Smith-Schuster, or whatever his name is. Thompson drafted Josh Jones a pick or two ahead of that guy, I think - due to need. But the Packers still need a safety, as Josh Jones has not developed as hoped, while Simon and Schuster is a hot young receiver for Pittsburgh. And doncha wish the Packers had him this year, to pair with Davante Adams?

Sometimes what you think you need isn't what you could really use.

As I said before, other than maybe a guard or center, I hope Gute takes the top player on his board at #12 - even if it's a quarterback. Or a reciever. Yes, there are limits - I'm not sure I'd like him to take three running backs in a row this year or anything - but all in all, take the top guy on your board. You'll need him soon enough.

[mraynrand]

OK, new theory time or does this fit with people’s current expectations?

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/tom-oates-new-packers-coach-matt-lafleur-must-get-aaron/article_16ea8f5b-f47d-5298-944a-af3c95bfb48d.html




Maybe they literally drifted apart in their conception of the offense?

Maybe McCarthy needed someone other than his QB to tell him that his offense was no longer up to snuff?

Please also notice that a play calling LaFluer will be in the same boat as McCarthy as far as a closed feedback system goes.

That seemed like a lot of fluff/speculation. Anyway, I am really intrigued by the OC and the play calling duties. Hope he won't be doing that. Too bad Kitchens is no longer available...

[mraynrand]

As I said before, other than maybe a guard or center, I hope Gute takes the top player on his board at #12 - even if it's a quarterback. Or a reciever. Yes, there are limits - I'm not sure I'd like him to take three running backs in a row this year or anything - but all in all, take the top guy on your board. You'll need him soon enough.

They have enough holes whereby they can probably do this. But, even at #12, (and at most positions) there's usually several guys who are all equally rated by the team. So they do have to rank which positions are most valuable to fill. Let's say an OT and Pass rushing interior lineman, a LB, or a defensive back are all available (Say Clelin Ferrell, Polite, Gregg Little or a Williams, Devin White, and Deandre Baker are all available, who do you take?) What if some are gone and N’Keal Harry is sitting there? Take a flyer on him? I see some mocks have 3-4 QBs and 3-4 OT being taken before the Packers. So maybe you get lucky and a couple of positions lose their round one rated guys...

I dunno. I'd hate to do this for a living.

[ThunderDan]

I disagree. The things you think you don't "need" often becomes the things you find are your greatest assets a couple years hence.

The Packers didn't "need" Aaron Rodgers when they took him. Packer fans went berserk. Thank god Ted took him.

And that Pittsburgh receiver - JuJu Simon-Smith-Schuster, or whatever his name is. Thompson drafted Josh Jones a pick or two ahead of that guy, I think - due to need. But the Packers still need a safety, as Josh Jones has not developed as hoped, while Simon and Schuster is a hot young receiver for Pittsburgh. And doncha wish the Packers had him this year, to pair with Davante Adams?

Sometimes what you think you need isn't what you could really use.

As I said before, other than maybe a guard or center, I hope Gute takes the top player on his board at #12 - even if it's a quarterback. Or a reciever. Yes, there are limits - I'm not sure I'd like him to take three running backs in a row this year or anything - but all in all, take the top guy on your board. You'll need him soon enough.

And then there are injuries and you are starting your 4th and 5th string DL in week 14 of the season. Or the year we had so many CB we didn't know what to do with them and then Shields has a neck injury and Packer hammy gets the rest of the DBs and we are playing Dorleant and Pipkins.

[Rutnstrut]

Drafting bpa and not for need works IF you are not dead set against FA and other means.

[pbmax]

Drafting bpa and not for need works IF you are not dead set against FA and other means.

The draft SHOULD come before FA, I agree with you there.

[Pugger]

I disagree. The things you think you don't "need" often becomes the things you find are your greatest assets a couple years hence.

The Packers didn't "need" Aaron Rodgers when they took him. Packer fans went berserk. Thank god Ted took him.

And that Pittsburgh receiver - JuJu Simon-Smith-Schuster, or whatever his name is. Thompson drafted Josh Jones a pick or two ahead of that guy, I think - due to need. But the Packers still need a safety, as Josh Jones has not developed as hoped, while Simon and Schuster is a hot young receiver for Pittsburgh. And doncha wish the Packers had him this year, to pair with Davante Adams?

Sometimes what you think you need isn't what you could really use.

As I said before, other than maybe a guard or center, I hope Gute takes the top player on his board at #12 - even if it's a quarterback. Or a reciever. Yes, there are limits - I'm not sure I'd like him to take three running backs in a row this year or anything - but all in all, take the top guy on your board. You'll need him soon enough.

Thank you for saying this better than I did. :-)

[Fritz]

I did?

[Pugger]

I did?

Yup!! :-)

[pbmax]

All he cares about are his stats and his commercials.


“I’ve had multiple conversations with Aaron,” said LaFleur, who actually revealed during his introductory news conference last week that he spoke with Rodgers before formally getting the job. “I’ll tell you what, the one thing that came across early is how passionate he is for the game of football and how much he wants to win. There’s nothing that’s going to stand in his way of really getting after it.

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/after-multiple-conversations-with-aaron-rodgers-matt-lafleur-knows-partnership/article_26be5cf7-5ac6-513d-98b7-db727cb9c839.html

[pbmax]

Wilde And Tausch @WildeAndTausch
Whitt on Aaron Rodgers: I don’t care what anyone out there says, I’ve seen him in the locker room for 11 years, he is all about winning and the success of the Green Bay #Packers.

[Fritz]

Wilde And Tausch @WildeAndTausch
Whitt on Aaron Rodgers: I don’t care what anyone out there says, I’ve seen him in the locker room for 11 years, he is all about winning and the success of the Green Bay #Packers.

When I got to that part, I thought it was going to be a quote about his penis size.

Whew.

[denverYooper]

When I got to that part, I thought it was going to be a quote about his penis size.

Whew.

"I can understand why he likes to go deep"

[mraynrand]

"I can understand why he likes to go deep"

penetrating analysis

[pbmax]

Take this commentary to the Nick Foles thread.

[pbmax]

Janis was on a podcast, here are some quotes from JSO:


On Rodgers’ on-field demeanor and body language:

“I think positive reinforcement works a lot better than negative. … It can tear you down and break a player. You take a really good player and just keep doing that stuff to them, he’s going to start being one of those guys you can’t count on because he’s feeling like he’s inconsistent and starting to get down on himself. It’s one of those things you can’t really change because (Rodgers) is the way he is.”

On McCarthy’s conservative play calling:

“It starts to separate the connection you have between the coaches and the players. If you don't trust your coaches on calling the right plays, it's just going to make things that much harder, and I think that's what you saw this year with the Packers and coach McCarthy.

“So another good move by the Packers is getting somebody else in there to spice things up and make a connection with the players and have one of those young, explosive offenses.”

On replacing McCarthy with LaFleur:

“(McCarthy’s) an old-school style coach and there were just a lot of times where we were like, ‘Man, we gotta do something here,’ and it was just like, punting the ball or running it. And we were like, ‘Man, we gotta do something to get some energy into this team.’ And a lot of that comes through the offense and we just weren’t able to do it sometimes. So I think it’s a good move by them (hiring LaFleur).”

On the Packers’ outmoded offense:

“When you watch (NFL) games now it’s like, holy cow, all these guys are getting so wide open. And then, I was finally able to sit back and watch the Packers’ season and it’s just like it’s a night-and-day difference compared to some other teams. It’s like, ‘Man, it’s just the same old stuff.’ And that’s why I think things are looking up for the Packers with the coaching change.”



JSO: https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/01/30/packers-buzz-janis-talks-rodgers-demeanor-mccarthys-play-calls/2706463002/

Podcast: https://t.co/dgtRe37DJT

[Joemailman]

Rodgers opts for no surgery.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/02/02/packers-qb-aaron-rodgers-opts-against-knee-surgery-says-body-feels-really-good/
I feel great. My body feels really good,” Rodgers said. “Instead of getting surgery (in the) postseason, decided to go through a different routine with my knee than I’ve done in the past, I’m feeling really, really good. Had a concussion the last game, that’s cleared up. I’m feeling really good.”


Rodgers injured his knee in the first half of the season opener and dealt with lingering side effects for the better part of the next two months. He didn’t rule out needing offseason surgery when asked during the season, but it appears he’s taking the non-surgical route to full recovery.

[pbmax]

Lindsey Pallares WBAY @lindseylares
#Packers Aaron Rodgers at the #NFLhonors red carpet talks offseason health, says he opted out of surgery on his knee and is going through a different routine with it. #SB53



Rodgers opts for no surgery.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/02/02/packers-qb-aaron-rodgers-opts-against-knee-surgery-says-body-feels-really-good/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DycjkNwU0AEY7Ds.jpg

[gbgary]

surgery is for fixing things that can't fix themselves. let's see...so the problem is still there but by not doing things that make his knee hurt (football) his knee feels better. omg.

i'll take DUMB DECISIONS for $100 Alex:

https://i.imgflip.com/2sr9wk.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/2sr9wk)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

[Fosco33]

Did they ever say what the injury was? Sprained mcl?

[Joemailman]

surgery is for fixing things that can't fix themselves. let's see...so the problem is still there but by not doing things that make his knee hurt (football) his knee feels better. omg.

i'll take DUMB DECISIONS for $100 Alex:



If it's just a knee sprain, that wouldn't likely need surgery. What it would need is for him to stop playing football every week on it. :idea: If he were climbing Mt. Everest or something, I might be concerned.

[gbgary]

If it's just a knee sprain, that wouldn't likely need surgery. What it would need is for him to stop playing football every week on it. :idea: If he were climbing Mt. Everest or something, I might be concerned.

if surgery was a consideration it had to be more than a sprain.

[call_me_ishmael]

Ty Dunne is the best football writer around. We were lucky to have him.

Yes, Aaron Rodgers is the problem.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2828649-what-happened-in-green-bay

[mraynrand]

Ty Dunne is the best football writer around. We were lucky to have him.

Yes, Aaron Rodgers is the problem.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2828649-what-happened-in-green-bay

Lot of Jennings Finley and Grant quotes. Would have been interesting to get Jordy and Cobb on the record.


Realizing early on that his days in Green Bay were numbered, McCarthy would not rip Rodgers publicly. Not even as fans lambasted him for failing to feed dangerous running back Aaron Jones—while Rodgers simultaneously audibled out of runs.

[pbmax]

Ty Dunne is the best football writer around. We were lucky to have him.

Yes, Aaron Rodgers is the problem.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2828649-what-happened-in-green-bay

Are you a lunatic? Get a real coach!


Many believe Rodgers, the QB with the best career passer rating (103.1) in NFL history, was 100 percent justified in overruling his coach's play calls, and that the Packers would've deteriorated more precipitously if he hadn't put that cape on. The personnel man says the Packers' passing offense was essentially "Get open" and that they basically ran the same routes for seven years straight, to the point where division rivals "constantly" called out plays pre-snap and jumped routes.

[pbmax]

Lot of Jennings Finley and Grant quotes. Would have been interesting to get Jordy and Cobb on the record.

Its very much a rehash of all the stuff we have heard before and very little new.

The close friend/teammate who reports that Rodgers thought McCarthy had a low football IQ is new, but not much else is.

[pbmax]

Are you a lunatic? Get a real coach!

This is a new one:


McCarthy, on the other hand, seemed to be more and more checked out, leading many to sympathize with Rodgers.

The sight was strange at first.

About once a week, a meeting would start up and McCarthy was MIA. Players weren't quite sure where he was while, for example, an assistant coach would run the team's final prep on the Saturday before a game. Eventually, word leaked that McCarthy, the one calling plays on game day, was up in his office getting a massage during those meetings.

[mraynrand]

QFT:


"You start arguing. You start losing. When the money's bad, you argue," says DuJuan Harris, a Packers running back from 2012 through 2014. "You start hating how somebody breathes. You start hating how somebody chews their food."

[gbgary]

no one comes out of this article unscathed. colin cowherd calls it a hatch-job on mccarthy but it's just as critical of rodgers...and others. it sure makes my suspicions increase about rodgers openness to be coached, to change, as he must.

[mraynrand]

That article had speculation about rings. I think 3 rings were left on the table: 2007,2011, 2014. 7 and 11 are interesting because the Packers lost to the same team that beat NE twice, including a team than many thought was the best NFL team ever. As I said after 2014, some losses are unrecoverable. You can't get past a loss like that without the organization blowing up. It took longer than it should have, but it eventually happened. I don't think any other Stubby teams were championship caliber. Maybe 2009, but they would have had to win at NO and at MN to get to the Super Bowl.

Article does confirm I think the worst suspicions about Thompson. (Edit: and I think the dynasty part is on Thompson. Even if the Packers win one of 2007 or 11 and 2014, that's just 3 SBs and maybe only two for Rodgers. The fact that the personnel got so bad, and there were so many draft mistakes, when that's your bread and butter, is all on TT. And you have to have continual good players and a few ringers for a dynasty. TT didn't get that done.)

[gbgary]

That article had speculation about rings. I think 3 rings were left on the table: 2007,2011, 2014. 7 and 11 are interesting because the Packers lost to the same team that beat NE twice, including a team than many thought was the best NFL team ever. As I said after 2014, some losses are unrecoverable. You can't get past a loss like that without the organization blowing up. It took longer than it should have, but it eventually happened. I don't think any other Stubby teams were championship caliber. Maybe 2009, but they would have had to win at NO and at MN to get to the Super Bowl.

Article does confirm I think the worst suspicions about Thompson.
and knowing that, you have to think there could have been more rings had he not let so much leadership and talent go.

[mraynrand]

and knowing that, you have to think there could have been more rings had he not let so much leadership and talent go.

I don't think it's about letting guys go, it's about not replenishing, especially on defense O-line, TE.

[mraynrand]

This article is #8 worldwide twitter trend...

[gbgary]

I don't think it's about letting guys go, it's about not replenishing, especially on defense O-line, TE.

i'm talking about how the article claims TT gutted the leadership from the team. woodson, sitton, etc., for young guys. there was no one to take their place in that respect. it left a void because mccarthy and rodgers aren't it.

[gbgary]

Its very much a rehash of all the stuff we have heard before and very little new.

The close friend/teammate who reports that Rodgers thought McCarthy had a low football IQ is new, but not much else is.

i disagree. there's a lot in here. jennings was even blown away by the article.

[texaspackerbacker]

Just seeing the title of this thread again pisses me off. Only an IDIOT would think Aaron Rodgers is a problem for the Green Bay Packers!

[mraynrand]

Just seeing the title of this thread again pisses me off. Only an IDIOT would think Aaron Rodgers is a problem for the Green Bay Packers!

Convincing argument.

[mraynrand]

i'm talking about how the article claims TT gutted the leadership from the team. woodson, sitton, etc., for young guys. there was no one to take their place in that respect. it left a void because mccarthy and rodgers aren't it.
Right. But you can’t just keep old guys around to be leaders. You need to use draft or FA to develop/bring in new leaders.

[gbgary]

Right. But you can’t just keep old guys around to be leaders. You need to use draft or FA to develop/bring in new leaders.

of course.

[Fritz]

That article had speculation about rings. I think 3 rings were left on the table: 2007,2011, 2014. 7 and 11 are interesting because the Packers lost to the same team that beat NE twice, including a team than many thought was the best NFL team ever. As I said after 2014, some losses are unrecoverable. You can't get past a loss like that without the organization blowing up. It took longer than it should have, but it eventually happened. I don't think any other Stubby teams were championship caliber. Maybe 2009, but they would have had to win at NO and at MN to get to the Super Bowl.

Article does confirm I think the worst suspicions about Thompson. (Edit: and I think the dynasty part is on Thompson. Even if the Packers win one of 2007 or 11 and 2014, that's just 3 SBs and maybe only two for Rodgers. The fact that the personnel got so bad, and there were so many draft mistakes, when that's your bread and butter, is all on TT. And you have to have continual good players and a few ringers for a dynasty. TT didn't get that done.)

It does appear that Thompson was slipping before we all saw it - I did not know he was actually falling asleep during meetings. To some degree, he is at fault, but he's also human for not seeing or not wanting to see that he was ailing.

On the other hand, it is Murphy's very job to keep an eye on the ship and particularly the ship's officers and crew. If it became evident that Thompson's health and thus job performance were slipping, why did he wait so long to jettison him?

It appears that loss to Seattle had a larger and longer-term effect than I, at least, hoped or thought it would. It looks now like that loss gutted that team. At the time, I thought that it might propel MM to make some much-needed changes and get this team back on track. But that never did happen, not really, because the problems were bigger than one muffed on-side kick. Getting to the NFC Championship game against Atlanta seems almost like a mirage at this point - that was all smoke-and-mirrors. I would say in that case Tex was right: it was all Rodgers.

Good article. Everybody's to blame. Which is generally how life is.

[pbmax]

I don't think it's about letting guys go, it's about not replenishing, especially on defense O-line, TE.

I think the article has some good quotes about how it felt to be a defensive player for the team. Don’t know if it would have made a difference but it couldn’t have helped.

[pbmax]

i'm talking about how the article claims TT gutted the leadership from the team. woodson, sitton, etc., for young guys. there was no one to take their place in that respect. it left a void because mccarthy and rodgers aren't it.

I do think they made mistakes in retention plans. But I am not sure leadership is the quality they missed.

[pbmax]

I do think try made mistakes in retention plans. But I am not sure leadership is the quality they missed.

Woodson and Sitton were around for the quitting of the team in 2013 described in the article by a defensive player. So it’s a not a cure all.

In fact, we have seen those quotes about that season before. Little googling might reveal who it is. Might even have been Dunne’s article.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Greg Jennings is just loving life right now. He gets to rip on the Packers and everyone loves to hear it.

[pbmax]

Greg Jennings is just loving life right now. He gets to rip on the Packers and everyone loves to hear it.

This is the first complaint of Jennings that I understand on a fundamental, emotional level. Joking that the other guys should sign him was a bad move when that contract year was in his head already.

The quotes above that story, which also sound like Jennings or Finley, about Rodgers not talking to McCarthy about anything (except maybe 1 or 2 times) is more the speed of elucidation I expect from these two. Its funny how coach and QB never talked about the offense while meeting weekly but Rodgers was ceded more control AND got his scripted plays into the game plan midseason 2018.

[pbmax]

Based on the chip on the shoulder theory, Rodgers might try to win 2 MVPs this year.

[pbmax]

The other disturbing thing about this article is that it is another argument that basically red has been right for about 7 years.

Damn.

[pbmax]

I think this is like therapy for Finley. His own.


Adds Finley: "A-Rod wants his. He wants to eat. He cares about his yards, his completions. He's going to have a hard time. ... That's like an addict. You tell an addict to change his ways when he's been stuck in his ways so long. I think it's going to be very tough. I thought he'd be able to grow out of it, but, s--t, you give a guy more money, there's more attitude, more diva-ness..."

His voice trails off.

[pbmax]

As one player put it, Thompson assumed the Packers system was automatic and he could just plug cheap rookies in.

In the process, the Packers lost the leaders that Rodgers and McCarthy never were, never would be, and they never found replacements.

Gone were gnarly, take-no-prisoners guards Josh Sitton (a Packer from 2008 to 2015) and T.J. Lang (2009-2016).

Seriously, this is just dumb. EVERY team dumped vets for younger players in the new CBA (post 2011). It has been all over the news. The Packers signed both of these guys to second contracts for big money. And Sitton and Lang were there for the bone-headedness. If their leadership was supposed to be the difference, then they should have been let go earlier.

One was replaced well, the other less so. But that is not the point the article is trying to make.

I hope Ty doesn't get into any arguments with other Packer beat writers over the Bostick dig. Dunne and the other beat guys will fall over themselves praising Bostick as a standup guy for granting post game interviews after his play in Seattle.

[pbmax]

Gone were defensive tackle Ryan Pickett (2006-2013) and defensive back Charles Woodson (2006-2012). Gone was defensive tackle B.J. Raji (2009-2015), who one player claims held everyone accountable on defense. Thompson lowballed Raji, choosing instead to pay big money to fire-breathing defensive tackle Mike Daniels. While Daniels has been hell-bent on trashing Green Bay's "soft" label, one teammate says guys are turned off by his "hypocritical leadership."

Someone should look at the defensive statistics from 2011 and 13 when all these guys were there. If I was into small sample sizes, I would say leadership and accountability are worth next to nothing.

Also, Raji might have been low balled, but where did he sign for more money?

[pbmax]

Either way, he freelanced more than ever. One source with close ties to the team estimates Rodgers changed about a third of the plays McCarthy called. "An alarming amount. That is embarrassing. And they don't work!'" Realizing early on that his days in Green Bay were numbered, McCarthy would not rip Rodgers publicly. Not even as fans lambasted him for failing to feed dangerous running back Aaron Jones—while Rodgers simultaneously audibled out of runs.

Jones wasn't in the game for the first six weeks.

[bobblehead]

Ty Dunne is the best football writer around. We were lucky to have him.

Yes, Aaron Rodgers is the problem.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2828649-what-happened-in-green-bay

So you are telling me that ARod is so dumb he thinks the OC in SF decides on who to draft...not even the HC, but the OC!

Edit: Although I totally buy that ARod thought MM was a buffoon when it came to game management. MM is a tool. I am betting no one hires him again, and if anyone does he will fail miserably. He had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL for about a 7 year stretch and got one OWL that was basically won because the D got hot at the right time.

[pbmax]

Over the years, Rodgers has preferred to surround himself with "yes-men," multiple sources say.

Name them please. His agent is one of the most respected guys in the business.

[bobblehead]

That article had speculation about rings. I think 3 rings were left on the table: 2007,2011, 2014. 7 and 11 are interesting because the Packers lost to the same team that beat NE twice, including a team than many thought was the best NFL team ever. As I said after 2014, some losses are unrecoverable. You can't get past a loss like that without the organization blowing up. It took longer than it should have, but it eventually happened. I don't think any other Stubby teams were championship caliber. Maybe 2009, but they would have had to win at NO and at MN to get to the Super Bowl.

Article does confirm I think the worst suspicions about Thompson. (Edit: and I think the dynasty part is on Thompson. Even if the Packers win one of 2007 or 11 and 2014, that's just 3 SBs and maybe only two for Rodgers. The fact that the personnel got so bad, and there were so many draft mistakes, when that's your bread and butter, is all on TT. And you have to have continual good players and a few ringers for a dynasty. TT didn't get that done.)

TT's last few drafts were subpar. Prior to that he consistently provided one of the best rosters in the league...despite losing an all world S and a really good CB to injury right after signing a big deal.

[bobblehead]

Based on the chip on the shoulder theory, Rodgers might try to win 2 MVPs this year.

Season and Owl I hope!

[pbmax]

Peter Bukowski
This is the bottom line: Aaron Rodgers is hyper competitive. That makes him sensitive, not just to perceived slights, but to the people around him. If they're not working as hard as him, he resents that. Mike McCarthy wasn't working hard enough. Rodgers lost respect for him.


Ok, but who is Peter Bukowski?

[Joemailman]

Peter Bukowski
This is the bottom line: Aaron Rodgers is hyper competitive. That makes him sensitive, not just to perceived slights, but to the people around him. If they're not working as hard as him, he resents that. Mike McCarthy wasn't working hard enough. Rodgers lost respect for him.


Ok, but who is Peter Bukowski?

He apparently used to write for Packerswire. https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/02/how-athletic-new-packers-dbs-can-provide-massive-upgrade-to-defense/

[Joemailman]

Peter Bukowski
This is the bottom line: Aaron Rodgers is hyper competitive. That makes him sensitive, not just to perceived slights, but to the people around him. If they're not working as hard as him, he resents that. Mike McCarthy wasn't working hard enough. Rodgers lost respect for him.


Ok, but who is Peter Bukowski?

He sure has a lot to say about Rodgers and McCarthy. https://twitter.com/Peter_Bukowski?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Es erp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

[denverYooper]

TJ Lang Retweeted
John Kuhn
‏Verified account @kuhnj30
49m49 minutes ago

Never knew my coach to get a massage instead of attending meetings and my QB never threw me under the bus. #justsaying

[pbmax]

TJ Lang Retweeted
John Kuhn
‏Verified account @kuhnj30
49m49 minutes ago

Never knew my coach to get a massage instead of attending meetings and my QB never threw me under the bus. #justsaying

There is a lot of timeshiftimg going on in the article. Almost all the Rodgers stuff from players is Super Bowl and earlier. The stuff that looks like it might be current is from personnel people who are no longer there and the complaints echo all the entitled/diva talk about his pre-draft interviews.

I also find it hard to believe that Rodgers actually holds M3 responsible for the 49ers draft decision. I am certain he remembers it and the comments, but I doubt its an active source of frustration.

[pbmax]

McCarthy denies massage story: https://twitter.com/sportsrapport/status/1113945009215164418

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne
And fwiw, here is one player's response to McCarthy's response on this: "It was talked about widely. Bizarre that he would deny that when it was widely known."

Widely known is very close to "we all believed it".

[mraynrand]

McCarthy denies massage story: https://twitter.com/sportsrapport/status/1113945009215164418

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne
And fwiw, here is one player's response to McCarthy's response on this: "It was talked about widely. Bizarre that he would deny that when it was widely known."

Widely known is very close to "we all believed it".

I was gonna photoshop Joe Biden in there behind Stubby rubbing his shoulders...

[wist43]

And Skylar said that Brittney liked Tanner... meanwhile Brice told Ashley that Coach Dooley fondled his whatsit, and that he liked it!! Well of course, Ashley told Brice that if he liked it so much, he could just plan on spending spring break with coach Dooley then!!!

Tune in next week to see what color skirts the PackerRats gossip club will be wearing!!

[mraynrand]

And Skylar said that Brittney liked Tanner... meanwhile Brice told Ashley that Coach Dooley fondled his whatsit, and that he liked it!! Well of course, Ashley told Brice that if he liked it so much, he could just plan on spending spring break with coach Dooley then!!!

Tune in next week to see what color skirts the PackerRats gossip club will be wearing!!

someone needs a masseuse

[wist43]

someone needs a masseuse

We're a couple weeks out from one of the most important drafts for this franchise in recent memory, the roster is full of developing and/or transitional types of players, and we have a new coaching staff - and all this mob wants to talk about is gossipy shit from a bygone era??

I'm having to go to other sites just to talk about actual Packer issues and players b/c no one here wants to talk football.

Buncha God damned women!! Get your heads out of your pussies :bang: :x

[Bretsky]

Ty Dunne is the best football writer around. We were lucky to have him.

Yes, Aaron Rodgers is the problem.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2828649-what-happened-in-green-bay



This Deserved it's own thread

[call_me_ishmael]

Another longtime teammate agrees: "That was a large cancer in the locker room. It wasn't a secret."

Anonymous teammates in reference to Rodgers still being butthurt about McCarthy's squad drafting Alex Smith. Dude, move on with your life. How is this a thing?


One former teammate says he thinks Rodgers should have won a minimum of six Super Bowl rings under McCarthy and that the 2011 team should be remembered like the '72 Dolphins.

Who's the teammate? Also, this is insane.


Rodgers may not be a Tom Brady-like locker room presence, but to one former offensive teammate, he's still "by far the best quarterback, skills-wise, in the history of the NFL." And it was on McCarthy to manage that, provide leadership and make his quarterback's life as stress-free as possible. Do everything in his power to let that talent shine.

"His No. 1 job, and Mike always missed this point, is to manage Aaron," the former teammate says. "That's your driver. That's your engine. Aaron's your engine for the whole team. Whether you want to or don't want to, you have to make sure that guy's happy. At the end of the day—and it doesn't sound like a fun job—if he's happy, you're winning.

"Your job isn't to go out there and throw and catch passes. Your job is to manage people."

"He tried to bill himself as this quarterback master," the player says. "It was like, 'Buddy, I just want to let you know, Joe Montana did a lot more before he was in Kansas City.'"

Who's the teammate? Sounds to me like one of the recently retired guards.




McCarthy felt he was the one who created this monster of an offense. A personnel man adds: "That was McCarthy's big mistake. He wanted to be The Guy. He wanted to be The Reason. And he wasn't that good."

Elliot Wolf?



Gone was defensive tackle B.J. Raji (2009-2015), who one player claims held everyone accountable on defense. Thompson lowballed Raji, choosing instead to pay big money to fire-breathing defensive tackle Mike Daniels. While Daniels has been hell-bent on trashing Green Bay's "soft" label, one teammate says guys are turned off by his "hypocritical leadership."

My guess is the teammate is Haha.




It didn't help that McCarthy also was rotating his assistants between positions annually. He wanted them to gain more experience, but as Grant points out, this didn't necessarily help the players. Many times, they felt as though they knew more about their position than their own coach.

Sort of feel like our young and inexperienced staff is bound to be like this.



"What guys did on defense did not matter," he says. "This is an offensive-minded team, and our quarterback is expected to bail us out. As defenders, we used to always talk about it. It's like, 'We whupped their ass today in camp. Are they going to finally run to us? Respect us?'"

"That's when the real coaching, the real identity, the real character came out of everybody," he says. "I saw that guys give up when we don't have a star quarterback. I see guys aren't going to give it all when their backs are against the wall."

"That Seahawks game defined our team right there," he says. "We didn't have any finishers."

Who could this be other than Haha? At first I thought Randall but then it calls back to 2014-2015 pre-Randall so it's gotta be Haha.



In one red-zone drill in practice, St. Brown didn't pick up on a signal, and Rodgers lost it. No, he wasn't exactly giving these rookies a chance to grow, either. A source close to one of the team's skill-position starters says Rodgers was the one "sinking the ship" with zero interest in developing Valdes-Scantling, St. Brown or Moore.

Close to a skill position starter? Sounds to me like a skill position starter 'cause I doubt Ty Dunne is calling a close friend or spouse of a starter. Who could it be? I think Cobb and Rodgers genuinely get along so I am sort of at a loss here. Aaron Jones? Davante?



He ran the routes as they were called from the sideline, and his targets declined. Rodgers would look his way, then pat, pat, pat the ball for something else to develop. Why? A source close to the team says Valdes-Scantling told him Rodgers just didn't like him. That he wasn't doing exactly what Rodgers asked him to do, so the quarterback started to freeze him out.

Philbin??




But even in the best of times—when confetti should've still been stuck to their clothing—one person who was then close to Rodgers remembers he would regularly call to vent that McCarthy didn't have a clue what he was doing. He'd tell him that McCarthy frequently called the wrong play. That he used the wrong personnel. That they were running plays that worked one out of 50 times in practice. That McCarthy was a buffoon he was constantly bailing out.

Sounds like a brother or Munn.



"I guarantee you, he never—maybe once or twice—but mostly never, ever addressed any of those things with Mike," this person says. "Which means all it did was fester and poison it."

Sounds like a brother or Munn.



Sources say McCarthy welcomed Rodgers over to his house and once even recommended he pick up the phone to call his mother. But Rodgers wasn't a fan of McCarthy's storytelling—he preferred to stick to the X's and O's. And on the family advice, Rodgers told McCarthy in so many words to mind his own business. McCarthy demanded more of Rodgers "as a man," one ex-friend says, "and Aaron didn't want to hear it. He doesn't want to ever be told he's wrong."

Mike is a good guy. This sounds like a brother. Someone who is very close to Rodgers. Maybe Olivia Munn.


"Of course, it comes to a head, and what does he want to do?" says a source who was once close to Rodgers. "He wants to cut him out of his life, just like he cut his family out."

Brother or Munn.


Adds a personnel man who worked for the Packers at the time: "He's not going to respect you if he thinks he's smarter than you."

One ex-Packers scout puts it on both. He describes Rodgers as an arrogant quarterback quick to blame everyone but himself—one who's "not as smart as he thinks he is"—yet kindly points out that McCarthy basically quit on his team.

Elliot Wolf?


The problem for McCarthy was that as the talent drained, he failed to innovate. His scheme went stale and he didn't adapt. As one personnel man puts it, McCarthy "got full off his own juice." He believed his system—not the Packers' absurd amount of talent—was the foundation for the offensive success. But raw rookies cannot bust free one-on-one like, say, Jennings or Nelson or Jones.

Where were the route combinations? The motion? The misdirection? "It's like, 'Dude, you have to adjust! The league changes!'" the personnel man says. "You've got to be humble enough to follow it. If you can't adapt, you die. He definitely didn't adapt. You can't run 90 back-shoulders into coverage. I don't care who you are. Things got so stale."

Elliot Wolf?


"If you're not a part of meetings, and then you're trying to be pissed about execution, nobody's going to really respect you," says one former front-office member from the McCarthy-Rodgers era. "They're going to look at you like, 'Where have you been all week?' It sounded like he was really just chilling."

Wolf?


When Thompson hired McCarthy, he called him "Pittsburgh macho." And yet the coach rarely matched his no-bull rhetoric in press conferences with no-bull action. One personnel man calls him "a fake tough guy."

Wolf?


Another longtime member of the Packers front office agrees, claiming any frustration Rodgers felt with Janis, with anyone, is likely because that player doesn't work how Rodgers works. Think of Jordan, Kobe, any legend. They're all demanding to the point of teammates despising them. Ask Magic Johnson's teammates what they thought of him, the source says. "They'd say, 'This dude was a jerk!'"

Gooter.


The leadership exodus pushed Rodgers further and further into an ill-fitting role. He never had to worry about speaking up back in 2010 or 2011. He played football. That's what he prefers. Multiple sources say Rodgers misses those days, with one adding he's become worn down and bitter about everyone's expectations of the type of leader he should be. In other words, as a former Packers scout puts it, Rodgers "is Brett Favre 2.0. He used to say, 'Oh, I'll never be like that guy.' And he literally is."

Wolf?


How Thompson failed to grasp this dynamic baffles people in the organization, although they also believe someone above Thompson should've stepped in because the GM's health was deteriorating. One personnel man recalls Thompson moving "really slow," with slurred speech, falling asleep during film sessions. "I'm like, 'This is the GM?'" Thompson was dealing with obvious physical issues, and Mark Murphy, the team president since 2007, didn't step in.

Sounds like Wolf.


Many agree McCarthy could have saved himself if he had swallowed his pride and hired a bright offensive mind to challenge Rodgers. One beam of hope emerged in Alex Van Pelt, who coached running backs in 2012 and 2013 before moving over to quarterbacks in 2014. However, team sources say McCarthy felt threatened by Van Pelt, who became close to Rodgers. The Packers opted not to retain Van Pelt when his contract expired after the 2017 season, which didn't sit well with Rodgers.

Sounds like Wolf as well.

[call_me_ishmael]

Either way, he freelanced more than ever. One source with close ties to the team estimates Rodgers changed about a third of the plays McCarthy called. "An alarming amount. That is embarrassing. And they don't work!'" Realizing early on that his days in Green Bay were numbered, McCarthy would not rip Rodgers publicly. Not even as fans lambasted him for failing to feed dangerous running back Aaron Jones—while Rodgers simultaneously audibled out of runs.

Philbin? Winston Moss?


A source close to the team says St. Brown became frustrated because, as much as he wanted to follow McCarthy’s play design, he also heard rumors of Rodgers freezing out teammates if they didn't do exactly what he demanded. So he listened to Rodgers. On one play in New England, Rodgers told St. Brown to run a post route when the play called for a flag. St. Brown ran the post, and pressure forced Rodgers to throw the ball away toward the flag—leading his position coach to grill him on what he was thinking.

St. Brown told him he was "improvising" so he didn't upset Rodgers.

Knowing what was up, McCarthy told him to stick with the routes called.

"That's when it went off the rails," the source close to the team says. "This shit was terrible. He fucked McCarthy over. Aaron undermined him."

Sounds like Moss, maybe Philbin.


Right before the Packers announced LaFleur as their new head coach, the source close to the team says Murphy called Rodgers to tell him who they were going with. He didn't ask for permission—he told him who the choice was. There was a brief pause on the other end of the phone before Rodgers eventually spoke. Murphy made it clear that Rodgers would need to accept coaching. "Don't be the problem," he told him. "Don't be the problem."

The single most damning quote in the whole thing. Wow. Who could the source possibly be to know the content of a presumably private-ish phone call??


The Packers' brass did not feel the need to get Rodgers' approval on whomever it hired. Murphy wanted a young coach who'd challenge the entire team, not just the quarterback.

Probably same source as above.


After dismissing anything Jennings and Finley say—"Fuck those guys"—one former coach says Rodgers has matured and dismisses the idea that he'd blow off anyone who can't match his IQ. He says Rodgers simply wants a coach "who isn't going to bullshit him" and expects Getsy, who was in Green Bay from 2014 to 2017 and spent last year at Mississippi State, to be precisely that.

"You give a guy a green light to do whatever he wants and then criticize him for it. Which one do you want?" the coach says. "Do you want him to be creative, or do you want him to be exactly what you tell him?"


Sounds like Alex Van Pelt to me.

[Rutnstrut]

This proves what some of us have been seeing from the outside for years. Rogers is a stat whore diva, TT is an overrated idiot, and stubby was mediocre at best. Put the Kool-Aid down and you too will see this clearly.

[mraynrand]

This proves what some of us have been seeing from the outside for years. Rogers is a stat whore diva, TT is an overrated idiot, and stubby was mediocre at best. Put the Kool-Aid down and you too will see this clearly.

and yet they won a lot of games. I don't agree with your estimate of TT. I would say he was ill before I'd call him an idiot. Maybe he even has CTE, eh?

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

So...I'm old, maybe even senile, but I really give zero fucks. As a fan, I care most about entertainment, whether they win super bowl or not. So no matter who screwed who, or when, I want to watch a game and be entertained. Many good memories of the Favre years, and Rodgers years, but lately...crickets. So, I really don't care what happened in the past, I just eagerly wait for the Packers to get their head out of their ass and start dominating again. Isn't that what today's NFL is about??

[texaspackerbacker]

Good Post, obndy. All this idiocy and ingratitude from supposed fans is just sick. We Packer fans - and state of Wisconsin fans in general - are truly blessed, probably more than just about anybody else. Yet some in here whine and piss and moan about the greatness we have had provided to us. And hell yeah, the NFL is ALL about the Packers dominating!

[pbmax]

This proves what some of us have been seeing from the outside for years. Rogers is a stat whore diva, TT is an overrated idiot, and stubby was mediocre at best. Put the Kool-Aid down and you too will see this clearly.

Second or third best record in the league over the period.

But what proof is offered?

There is way too much credence given to every utterance and way too much forgetting what worked. If this is the Packers, other teams are vastly worse given their results. There is far less tension when there are no expectations.

[pbmax]

I forgot to mention the hysterical build up of Luke Getsy as someone who will finally challenge Rodgers bull. This is the coach that Rodgers went out of his way to praise when he was elevated to WR coach and then McCarthy allowed to leave. The idea that Murphy has finally straightened this out is perhaps the most laughable point of this article.

The coverage of this initially was that it was a sop to Rodgers given his new head coach and OC were new to him.

Its far more likely Getsy was a known commodity with Gute when LaFleur began running out of candidates.

[Fritz]

And Skylar said that Brittney liked Tanner... meanwhile Brice told Ashley that Coach Dooley fondled his whatsit, and that he liked it!! Well of course, Ashley told Brice that if he liked it so much, he could just plan on spending spring break with coach Dooley then!!!

Tune in next week to see what color skirts the PackerRats gossip club will be wearing!!

Brittney does not like Tanner; she likes Coach Dooley. That's why Brice said that shit about Coach, because he actually likes Brittney (not Ashley) and he wanted her to think Coach D. was into guys.

[mraynrand]

So...I'm old, maybe even senile, but I really give zero fucks. As a fan, I care most about entertainment, whether they win super bowl or not. So no matter who screwed who, or when, I want to watch a game and be entertained. Many good memories of the Favre years, and Rodgers years, but lately...crickets. So, I really don't care what happened in the past, I just eagerly wait for the Packers to get their head out of their ass and start dominating again. Isn't that what today's NFL is about??

Nah, the NFL is extreme socialism - try to even everything out so you get as many competitive games as possible, even if the overall quality sucks.

[Deputy Nutz]

I would love to agree with this article about every thing said about Aaron Rodgers, but this was a smut article written with a bunch of ridiculous sources that refused to be named. Jennings was the only reasonable source of the former players named. Rodgers has some personalities faults and is a narcissist, and I have always questioned his leadership qualities, but he didn't purposely tank this past season. I just wish he would be a better resource for the younger guys and not be so short sided with the other guys trying to develop into quality football players.

[mraynrand]

Good Post, obndy. All this idiocy and ingratitude from supposed fans is just sick.

I don't understand how dissecting what went wrong qualifies as 'ingratitude' Maybe a waste of time and gossip, but ingratitude? nah.

[Fritz]

I think Nutz has really gotten it right. Yes, we know Rodgers has faults, but geez, I do wish he were a bit more patient with the young receivers. I think at times he stunts their growth.

[call_me_ishmael]

I would love to agree with this article about every thing said about Aaron Rodgers, but this was a smut article written with a bunch of ridiculous sources that refused to be named. Jennings was the only reasonable source of the former players named. Rodgers has some personalities faults and is a narcissist, and I have always questioned his leadership qualities, but he didn't purposely tank this past season. I just wish he would be a better resource for the younger guys and not be so short sided with the other guys trying to develop into quality football players.

I mean, it's not like Elliot Wolf can go on record with his quotes. That's tampering I think. I get why most of the sources are anonymous. I think most of them are credible, reasonable, tough-but-fair people outside of Finley (who's a moron).

I think Philbin is the coach oft quoted, and he doesn't strike me as a sour grapes kind of guy. This was an incredibly well done and well-sourced article.

And call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think Murphy and Gooter were both interviewed for this. The "Don't be the problem" is a clear message being sent. If you're sick of someone being a diva and you want to get rid of them if they don't change their way, what better way to do that to a fan favorite then to plant the seeds now?

[ThunderDan]

And call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think Murphy and Gooter were both interviewed for this. The "Don't be the problem" is a clear message being sent. If you're sick of someone being a diva and you want to get rid of them if they don't change their way, what better way to do that to a fan favorite then to plant the seeds now?

The clear message isn't to extend him and then "send a clear message". That is half-assed backwards.

[texaspackerbacker]

Nah, the NFL is extreme socialism - try to even everything out so you get as many competitive games as possible, even if the overall quality sucks.

That may be their damn goal, but cream comes to the top. The world is just better with the Packers and Wisconsin teams in general where they belong - on top looking down at all the losers.

[texaspackerbacker]

I don't understand how dissecting what went wrong qualifies as 'ingratitude' Maybe a waste of time and gossip, but ingratitude? nah.

Ingratitude = posting negative shit about Aaron Rodgers - and Favre before him. THEY - not coaches, not GMs, not supporting cast of players - are the reason We the Packer Fans have been provided with more than two decades of quality football. Anybody not appreciating that can go be a damned Lions or Bears or Vikings fan.

[texaspackerbacker]

I think Nutz has really gotten it right. Yes, we know Rodgers has faults, but geez, I do wish he were a bit more patient with the young receivers. I think at times he stunts their growth.

It seems a helluva lot more likely that was the fault of the coaches. Hopefully we see a difference now with the new regime.

[call_me_ishmael]

The clear message isn't to extend him and then "send a clear message". That is half-assed backwards.

I'll give you that's where the thought process breaks down a bit. Unrelated, but I am not a fan of extending him personally. Have been saying it for over a year.

[mraynrand]

Ingratitude = posting negative shit about Aaron Rodgers - and Favre before him.

incorrect

[run pMc]

They were a 6 win team. The coach got fired. Players and Fans are gonna be unhappy. People are going to talk.

To the original question: Rodgers is still good. It doesn't mean he's above reproach or excluded from criticism. If the criticism is constructive/based on facts then it's fair to at least consider it.

[mraynrand]

They were a 6 win team. The coach got fired. Players and Fans are gonna be unhappy. People are going to talk.

To the original question: Rodgers is still good. It doesn't mean he's above reproach or excluded from criticism. If the criticism is constructive/based on facts then it's fair to at least consider it.

good post

[pbmax]

I think Nutz has really gotten it right. Yes, we know Rodgers has faults, but geez, I do wish he were a bit more patient with the young receivers. I think at times he stunts their growth.

I don't buy this much. Explain Adams and Geronimo developing through this understanding.

[pbmax]

The clear message isn't to extend him and then "send a clear message". That is half-assed backwards.

Yeah, that part of the article about sending a message through the hiring of a new coach seems backwards.

If the baseline level analysis of most of the article is correct, Rodgers wanted McCarthy gone. Or at least a different approach to offense. Which they gave him. If Rand is right about rebuilding in 2018, I doubt how much they even wanted them to work it out. That one year deal was a message to McCarthy, not Rodgers.

So the quotes about sending Rodgers a message (which is the same message Thompson sent Favre and McCarthy/Gute sent Rodgers when they changed QB coaches) seems after the fact explaining.

In general, Rodgers shouldn't have a say, that would be my franchise ideal. But if they got this wrong (and they have no idea if they have or not) then the Rodgers extension was a colossal blunder. They should have traded him like Gary suggested or drafted a decent QB in the last 2 years. Or sign Josh Rosen.

[pbmax]

Finally, we have an Official Favre thread for Rodgers!

[pbmax]

I love the thought process too: OK, we listened, we fired the coach. Now don't be a diva!

We need a chef's kiss emoji for this foolishness.

On the subject of leadership, how did Favre react to Jennings and Rodgers being the draft picks, anyone remember?

#SignRandyMoss!

Favre wanted to be the GM. Rodgers at worst wants to be the coach.

[Fritz]

I don't buy this much. Explain Adams and Geronimo developing through this understanding.

Two parts: one, it's possible both of the above just went with what Rodgers wanted and let him know they would. Two, it's possible Rodgers has gotten worse since those two. He does appear more impatient and unafraid of showing his displeasure than he used to be.

[woodbuck27]

i disagree. there's a lot in here. jennings was even blown away by the article.

I saw MM as a terrible Head Coach but today I am shocked and I do not shock easily with all the crap we are seeing today if you have a pulse.

In my six plus decades of playing sports and being a Pro Sports fan; I don't recall reading a more pointed critical indictment, more 'on point' focus on the real health of a Pro Sports franchise.

As fans we are seriously observing the teams we love and we know when things are wrong even if we're unaware of exactly what factors are causing the issue to exist. We see a lot of little pictures but Tyler Dunne explains to us the inside stuff. The stuff that rarely is revealed.

This article will of course be challenged but I predict it's award worthy. It is a shocking revelation of a storied franchise and just how bad things can get and how that bad plays out on game days.

I could see plenty bad but the reasons for that if this article is in it's entirety creditable are blowing me away.

The Head Coach missing his own Team Meetings on a detour to get a massage. Give me a break. Sneaking the masseuse into his office.

A. At 1:30 PM Scheduled Team meeting.

B. 4 PM A Booked massage in my office.

The Head Coach missing his own scheduled meetings . Give me a break !

Sneaking the Masseuse up the back stairs to the the head Coach's office !? What?... and if so ...why?

"What the hell is going on around this place?" Vince Lombardi

If this stuff is true Mike McCarthy might have difficulty getting his fat belly behind a bar as it's tender.

If this is true he won't coach a Pop Warner youth team. Forget getting another NFL Head Coaching or OC assignment. This article is a life impacting badass sentence on Mike McCarthy and no future in the NFL.

[woodbuck27]

Finally, we have an Official Favre thread for Rodgers!

Of course over the course of it we will know positively that Aaron Rodgers is not of the even near same quality of a person as Brett Favre. It has been said over and over just what a happy go lucky teammate Favre was supporting his peers.

Brett Favre clearly was 'a Team player'. Favre spread 'the love' .

[denverYooper]

Favre spread 'the love' .

Deanna was not very happy about that.

[woodbuck27]

Finally, we have an Official Favre thread for Rodgers!

What we really have is a QB that needs to bust his ass to get on the same page as his new Head Coach and OC.

What we might have here is an official Green Bay Packer management apology

Owed to Packer fans world wide,
.

[woodbuck27]

[QUOTE=denverYooper;1006846]Deanna was not very happy about that.[/QUR OTE]

All is well that ended well.

Most of us have done really stupid stuff and realized that was stupid at some point and hoped we would be simply forgiven.

[denverYooper]

Deanna was not very happy about that.

All is well that ended well.

Most of us have done really stupid stuff and realized that was stupid at some point and hoped we would be simply forgiven.

Nice pivot. Your claim was that Aaron Rodgers was not "the same quality of person". Now you explain away his lecherous behavior as simply something stupid.

As a teammate, Favre was quite detached from most of the younger players in his later years in Green Bay to the point that he was reported to have his own locker room. The routine offseason retirements didn't add to the perception that he was giving his all, either. Then there were the cold games where he just checked out. Yet he played that one magical season with the Vikings deep in his career that re-kindled the Favre of yore in the hearts of his most ardent supporters.

They've both had long careers with a lot of success and their share of warts. It is just Rodgers's time to get brought down a peg.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I would love to agree with this article about every thing said about Aaron Rodgers, but this was a smut article written with a bunch of ridiculous sources that refused to be named. Jennings was the only reasonable source of the former players named. Rodgers has some personalities faults and is a narcissist, and I have always questioned his leadership qualities, but he didn't purposely tank this past season. I just wish he would be a better resource for the younger guys and not be so short sided with the other guys trying to develop into quality football players.

Where in the article did Dunne mention that the Great Arm of Butte purposely tanked the season?

I've grown accustomed to A-Rod, but I'm disappointed to learn that he imprisoned Janis in a doghouse. Janis bailed Rodgers out TWICE on that last drive in Arizona, for fuck's sake! Good things happened when Janis was in the game.

Harlan is reading this and he's like, I'm glad i saw Janis live at Woodstock.

[mraynrand]

Deanna was not very happy about that.

All is well that ended well.

Most of us have done really stupid stuff and realized that was stupid at some point and hoped we would be simply forgiven.

Sure, but we still ended up in prison.

[mraynrand]

Nice pivot. Your claim was that Aaron Rodgers was not "the same quality of person". Now you explain away his lecherous behavior as simply something stupid.

As a teammate, Favre was quite detached from most of the younger players in his later years in Green Bay to the point that he was reported to have his own locker room. The routine offseason retirements didn't add to the perception that he was giving his all, either. Then there were the cold games where he just checked out. Yet he played that one magical season with the Vikings deep in his career that re-kindled the Favre of yore in the hearts of his most ardent supporters.

They've both had long careers with a lot of success and their share of warts. It is just Rodgers's time to get brought down a peg.

You first have to tear a person down to rebuild them.

LaFleur to Rodgers:
“The first and last words coming out of your filthy sewer will be ‘Yes Sir.’ Do you hear me?”
“Yes sir!”
“Bullshit!! I can’t hear you!”
“YES SIR!!!”

[Fritz]

Nice pivot. Your claim was that Aaron Rodgers was not "the same quality of person". Now you explain away his lecherous behavior as simply something stupid.

As a teammate, Favre was quite detached from most of the younger players in his later years in Green Bay to the point that he was reported to have his own locker room. The routine offseason retirements didn't add to the perception that he was giving his all, either. Then there were the cold games where he just checked out. Yet he played that one magical season with the Vikings deep in his career that re-kindled the Favre of yore in the hearts of his most ardent supporters.

They've both had long careers with a lot of success and their share of warts. It is just Rodgers's time to get brought down a peg.


A peg? C'mon, Denver, don't be so modest. Let's burn the whole thing down!

Or we could go to another thread.

I suspect there's some truth to what was written, a fair amount that was just axe-grinding, and the very real conclusion that it was no single person's fault.

Though I am tempted to simply blame Murphy.

[falco]

Nice pivot. Your claim was that Aaron Rodgers was not "the same quality of person". Now you explain away his lecherous behavior as simply something stupid.


Your first mistake was expecting logic from woodbuck... at best you'll get a nonsensical rant with a tinge of bigotry.

[Bretsky]

Let's call a spade a spade. Sometimes the truth is painful to acknowledge. I am a huge fan of AROD as a player.

But read in between the lines and listen tot e Packer Beat guys who cover the team on and off the record. Here are some captain obvious viewpoints

Rodgers is smug. He's very intelligent but perhaps to a fault. And he's kind of an asshole as teammate to many. He's roll his eyes, call out players, and dress them down occasionally in practices. He's a know it all who a few teammates embrace but many do not. Brett Favre was embraced by all his teammates untl he really got old and was a generation ahead of the entire team. Rodgers is not there. Watch the mannerisms after each of them throw TD's. Rodgers is far better than Favre, but he's no Favre as a leader. It got to some point where Rodgers no longer respected McCarthy as a coach, changed plays at will, and avoided throwing many many slants when they were wide open. I hope Rodgers embraces Matty; but I want to see how this turns out several months, or a couple years in....I want to know if Rodgers thinks he's too dam smart to respect a coach....he was a real shithead to Mike McCarthy.

And on to Mike McCarthy. I don't know when it was; but he lost the players and the longer it went on the more bad conduct was overlooked....neglected....and not handled remotely appropriate. As a disciplinarian MM said the right things to the press, but was a fruitcake the past couple years of his rein. I also think Mike McCarthy is a high class person. Unlike AROD, he's a good human being. He discussed how he was let go, and pondered how painful it was for him to deal with player shortcomings. He was no longer successful as a head coach. But how he was let go seemed pretty heartless

On to my frickin Fave....MARCIA MARCIA MARCIA....you deserve the blame for a lot of recent failings on the Green Bay Packers. You were overseeing this ship as the talent dried up badly.
And you let it keep happening. if TT was occasionally dozing off, mentally becoming unhealthy, shame on you for not reacting right away. You take much blame for this all from talent. And when you fire a coach who won a Super Bowl for the Green Bay Packers, have at least a bit of a heart. Pulling him out right after the presser, showing no emotion or thankfulness for MM leading us to a SB. Cold and Nasty Marcia. I lack faith in you ability as a leader.

We're lookin like a Fart in the Wind and all three of these guys, along with TT, have plenty of blame

[falco]

We're lookin like a Fart in the Wind and all three of these guys, along with TT, have plenty of blame

the technical term for this is a "shit show"

[pbmax]

Of course over the course of it we will know positively that Aaron Rodgers is not of the even near same quality of a person as Brett Favre. It has been said over and over just what a happy go lucky teammate Favre was supporting his peers.

Brett Favre clearly was 'a Team player'. Favre spread 'the love' .

He had his own office and locker room apart from the team.

[pbmax]

What we really have is a QB that needs to bust his ass to get on the same page as his new Head Coach and OC.

What we might have here is an official Green Bay Packer management apology

Owed to Packer fans world wide,
.

I would rather they bust their ass as much as he does. Because that doesn't seem to have been happening in the last few years.

[pbmax]

Where in the article did Dunne mention that the Great Arm of Butte purposely tanked the season?

I've grown accustomed to A-Rod, but I'm disappointed to learn that he imprisoned Janis in a doghouse. Janis bailed Rodgers out TWICE on that last drive in Arizona, for fuck's sake! Good things happened when Janis was in the game.

Harlan is reading this and he's like, I'm glad i saw Janis live at Woodstock.

It didn't. That is board speculation.

[pbmax]

the technical term for this is a "shit show"

You (Fritz and Bretsky too) have to look at this as disaster half full, not half empty.

If this dysfunction won a Super Bowl and had the second or third best record in the League during their time together, just think how well they will perform with a smaller degree of self-harm?

If they can make the playoffs year after year while their GM is suffering from an unknown neurological condition, then the sky is the limit now.

[woodbuck27]

He had his own office and locker room apart from the team.

And your making what point with this comment?

[pbmax]

And your making what point with this comment?

As with Rodgers now, there were complaints then that Rodgers was not an effective leader with young players.

It's an easy story to write about older players.

[woodbuck27]

You (Fritz and Bretsky too) have to look at this as disaster half full, not half empty.

If this dysfunction won a Super Bowl and had the second or third best record in the League during their time together, just think how well they will perform with a smaller degree of self-harm?

If they can make the playoffs year after year while their GM is suffering from an unknown neurological condition, then the sky is the limit now.

We have some better chance as with MM we had little and I never understood how anyone in here believed that MM was the Cat's Ass as a Head Coach. He was just what I saw and out to lunch full of himself. His job was simple. Work on the same page as his star QB. I really cannot believe that ARod didn't knock the wind out of MM with a gut punch.

I will never forget Aaron Rodgers coming off the field one time all fired up with his fists clinched at his waste and right then and there It sure looked like ARod wanted to smoke MM.I believe it was over a flag tossing incident that shouldn't have been or a clear example of MM and being out to lunch.

[Deputy Nutz]

It didn't take long for the Favre comparisons to start in this thread. Favre and Rodgers are completely different players both not accustom to losing seasons, especially back to back seasons. Favre was the gunslinger that was going to go down in flames if he was losing a game. He didn't care if he threw 2 interceptions, or 4 if his team lost. He was going to go down slinging and looking to make the big play to try and force the win. Rodgers isn't going to allow himself to make a mistake regardless of the score. These are very different approaches, both don't make the team any better at the end of the game or the end of the season.

Their leadership qualities are also drastically different. Favre loved the connection to his teammates, he wanted to make everyone around him better, even running routes in practice to demonstrate how to run the routes the way they needed to be run. I keeping reading the separate locker room with Favre, the reality was that the media that surrounded Favre was immense while he was in the NFL locker room, and Favre and the team thought it was easier for him to change in a separate locker room closer to the practice field during training camp. The media hated it because they couldn't get constant access to Favre, so they made a bigger deal than necessary.

A really good read, "The Gunslinger" was a biography on Favre and didn't pull any punches. There was a whole chapter on the Rodgers and Favre relationship. Neither one of them did a lot to promote a positive relationship between each other. Two different personalities and two different generations, that rubbed the other the wrong way. I think the older Rodgers has gotten the better it was gotten.

It's funny how the past is now repeating each other, even though Favre and Rodgers are so different.

[pbmax]

Their leadership qualities are also drastically different. Favre loved the connection to his teammates, he wanted to make everyone around him better, even running routes in practice to demonstrate how to run the routes the way they needed to be run.

snip

It's funny how the past is now repeating each other, even though Favre and Rodgers are so different.

How, in any way, is this different than Rodgers relationships with Martin, Nelson, Cobb, Jones, Sitton, Lang, Bach, Peppers, Kuhn and Woodson? How was Favre's relationship with Billy Schroeder? Greg Jennings? Funny, I remember people complaining about Favre not wanting to get to know or help young players either.

You last line sums all this up much better. However Rodgers and Favre are different (and they share far more in common than not) that difference is almost immaterial. Its about self interest. Favre wanted to be GM and load up for near term Super Bowl shots. Rodgers is convinced that McCarthy was out of ideas (or perhaps did not care enough to have anymore) and the offense was never again going to have the talent to control the teams destiny again. Each was trying to extend the streak of great play and get another ring.

Its literally the end of every successful veteran QB career not named John Elway. And I do not think its any coincidence that Murphy hired someone that can be traced back to that lineage.

[mraynrand]

Except for Favre, you have the evidence of 2007 and 2009. That's pretty much like an Elway/Manning ending sans rings. And the key was greatly improved surrounding talent and coaches adapting to/exploiting the QB's talent.

[Deputy Nutz]

How, in any way, is this different than Rodgers relationships with Martin, Nelson, Cobb, Jones, Sitton, Lang, Bach, Peppers, Kuhn and Woodson? How was Favre's relationship with Billy Schroeder? Greg Jennings? Funny, I remember people complaining about Favre not wanting to get to know or help young players either.

You last line sums all this up much better. However Rodgers and Favre are different (and they share far more in common than not) that difference is almost immaterial. Its about self interest. Favre wanted to be GM and load up for near term Super Bowl shots. Rodgers is convinced that McCarthy was out of ideas (or perhaps did not care enough to have anymore) and the offense was never again going to have the talent to control the teams destiny again. Each was trying to extend the streak of great play and get another ring.

Its literally the end of every successful veteran QB career not named John Elway. And I do not think its any coincidence that Murphy hired someone that can be traced back to that lineage.

Favre made remarks that it was hard to connect to the younger generation outside of football. He truly enjoyed the locker room environment when guys played cards, hung out together. He loved to work the locker room. It became different when guys locked into the cell phones and head phones. They just didn't relate all that well. Favre never struggled with bonding with teammates on the practice field or in the meeting rooms

[red]

I’d like to see the new kid coach talk a rod into taking more chances

2 ints just doesn’t seem right to me, especially when we see him passing up so many throws that we see other qbs routinely make (even him in the past)

Now I’m not saying to go all Favre, I’m not even saying to go half Favre

But something a little more then what he did last year with his ultra conservative approach

A guy running across the middle with a guy 2 steps behind him is not “covered” like so many people were claiming last year. He can make those throws

[Joemailman]

I’d like to see the new kid coach talk a rod into taking more chances

2 ints just doesn’t seem right to me, especially when we see him passing up so many throws that we see other qbs routinely make (even him in the past)

Now I’m not saying to go all Favre, I’m not even saying to go half Favre

But something a little more then what he did last year with his ultra conservative approach

A guy running across the middle with a guy 2 steps behind him is not “covered” like so many people were claiming last year. He can make those throws

I wonder if, perhaps because of his knee, he had lost confidence in his ability to make certain throws.

[pbmax]

Favre never struggled with bonding with teammates on the practice field or in the meeting rooms

And yet I haven't seen a story about Rodgers being unable to do that in meetings or on the practice field unless it was sourced to Finley or Jennings.

A Vikings writer today boldly pointed out that Jennings is bitter and disappointed, but the Dunne story tells us why that happened, so you Packer fans ought to listen. However, none of Dunne's story touches on the beginning of that disappointment and bitterness.

It started, not coincidentally, when Jennings failed to get an offer that he thought he was due from the Packers in the offseason. And it got worse from there. First McCarthy was sticking it to him by only running him on short routes. Then Rodgers mocked him to Carlos Rogers. The they misdiagnosed an injury. Then he stopped being the go to guy when he got back and vented through his sister.

Somehow I feel there is a pattern here, but I just can't tease it out.

Oh, I remember. Once, before Moss as a FA, Favre had routinely failed to speak up about personnel matters and suggest who the Packers should sign or re-sign. Hmm.

Its almost as if age and desperation change a person. It certainly messed with the heads of Finley and Jennings in their contract years.

I used to be puzzled by why seemingly all good QB retirements are involve bitterness and accusations (Bradshaw, Marino, Montana). After seeing it up close once and closing in on another), I grasp it now.

[George Cumby]

And yet I haven't seen a story about Rodgers being unable to do that in meetings or on the practice field unless it was sourced to Finley or Jennings.

A Vikings writer today boldly pointed out that Jennings is bitter and disappointed, but the Dunne story tells us why that happened, so you Packer fans ought to listen. However, none of Dunne's story touches on the beginning of that disappointment and bitterness.

It started, not coincidentally, when Jennings failed to get an offer that he thought he was due from the Packers in the offseason. And it got worse from there. First McCarthy was sticking it to him by only running him on short routes. Then Rodgers mocked him to Carlos Rogers. The they misdiagnosed an injury. Then he stopped being the go to guy when he got back and vented through his sister.

Somehow I feel there is a pattern here, but I just can't tease it out.

Oh, I remember. Once, before Moss as a FA, Favre had routinely failed to speak up about personnel matters and suggest who the Packers should sign. Hmm.

Its almost as if age and desperation change a person. It certainly messed with the heads of Finley and Jennings in their contract years.

I used to be puzzled by why seemingly all good QB retirements are involve bitterness and accusations (Bradshaw, Marino, Montana). After seeing it up close once and closing in on another), I grasp it now.

Ayuh.

They are only human. They are just as flawed as the rest of us, they are just really good at a very profitable venture. We could go on and on about how fame rewires their heads, money affects them, their ego's role in the deal.

It's part of the deal. It's the human condition.

[pbmax]

Rodgers Interviewed:

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
#Packers QB Aaron Rodgers said two main things he wants to talk about is Mark Murphy's reported comment to him and that if he hated McCarthy so badly, why would he re-sign with the #Packers. Interview on @WildeAndTausch

Rodgers said Gutekunst called him and asked him to talk to LaFleur and told him that LaFleur was the top candidate. Then Murphy called and said Murphy said nothing like, "Don't be the problem." Called it patently false.

Rodgers said he used to joke with McCarthy about picking Alex Smith over him. Said he did not have a grudge. Says, "I love Mike McCarthy. We had our issues. But we dealt with those issues face-to-face. It would be at my house sometimes, at his house sometimes."

Rodgers said he and McCarthy also came to common ground after their disagreements and hugged each other and said, "I love you." Said he went to MM's office after his post-game Bills comments and apologized.

Rodgers said he thinks "we need to honor Mike. "We did some incredible things. Instead of trashing him on the way out, remember the great things we did. If you see Mike, shake his hand and tell him how much you appreciate what we accomplished."

Rodgers on regrets with MM: I wish I wouldn't have said anything after the Bills game.

Rodgers said he had a lot of latitude to change plays at the line of scrimmage. He said sometimes McCarthy gave him two plays in the huddle and had McCarthy gave him the ability to change the plays.

Rodgers said a coach and a quarterback don't win championships. Said it takes an organization to win championships.

[pbmax]

Michael Cohen @Michael_Cohen13
#Packers QB Aaron Rodgers said he's heard from "over 100" current and former coaches/players since the @BleacherReport story was published, according to an interview Rodgers did with ESPN Wisconsin radio. Rodgers called the article a "smear" job.

Rodgers says if he really disliked Mike McCarthy as much as the article portrayed, he wouldn't have re-signed with the #Packers last summer.

Rodgers said Mark Murphy never told him "Don't be the problem" as the article stated. It was totally false, according to Rodgers. And Murphy said it was "ridiculous" as well. Rodgers going after Jermichael Finley and Greg Jennings. "It's the same tired stories." #Packers

Rodgers on McCarthy: "This idea that I had a grudge against him for years is absolutely ridiculous. Where was that grudge when we won the Super Bowl? Where was that grudge when we won 19 games in a row?" #Packers

Acknowledges there were issues, but they were promptly discussed.

Rodgers emphasizes that his respect is earned, not given. He thinks there can be a sense of entitlement with younger players in the league. "The opportunities to earn that respect are there from day one, meeting one, conversation No. 1." #Packers

Rodgers asked if he needs to adjust his process for building trust with receivers: "My style of leadership is my style. I'm prepared, I'm focused, I'm competitive. I hold myself to a high standard and I hold the guys to a high standard." #Packers

Rodgers dodges a question about whether the #Packers could have been more successful if he and McCarthy managed the tension between them more effectively. Instead, he says there are more things that go into winning besides just a coach and a player.

Rodgers on the tension with McCarthy: "It's just two alpha males who are hyper competitive and love winning who are both a little stubborn." #Packers

Rodgers: "I wished I hadn't said anything after the #Bills game last year." Instead, Rodgers wishes he expressed those concerns privately rather than at the podium after a game.

Rodgers said being passed over for the No. 1 pick bothered him until the #Packers won a Super Bowl and he won a couple of MVPs. Then he needed to find other things to motivate him. Rodgers says he has no ill will toward the #49ers or anyone from that organization.

Rodgers says the #Packers need to honor Mike McCarthy and respect him the right way. "We did some incredible things. So instead of trashing this guy on the way out, let's remember the amazing times that we had together."

Rodgers said he apologized to Mike McCarthy after his negative comments following the #Bills game last season. They talked about it for an hour and moved forward. #Packers

Rodgers on McCarthy: "This idea that I had a grudge against him for years is absolutely ridiculous. Where was that grudge when we won the Super Bowl? Where was that grudge when we won 19 games in a row?" #Packers

Rodgers said Mark Murphy never told him "Don't be the problem" as the article stated. It was totally false, according to Rodgers. And Murphy said it was "ridiculous" as well. Rodgers going after Jermichael Finley and Greg Jennings. "It's the same tired stories." #Packers

Rodgers says if he really disliked Mike McCarthy as much as the article portrayed, he wouldn't have re-signed with the #Packers last summer.

#Packers QB Aaron Rodgers said he's heard from "over 100" current and former coaches/players since the @BleacherReport story was published, according to an interview Rodgers did with ESPN Wisconsin radio. Rodgers called the article a "smear" job.

[pbmax]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3qewDMW0Agochl.jpg:large

[pbmax]

Rodgers Interviewed:

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
#Packers QB Aaron Rodgers said two main things he wants to talk about is Mark Murphy's reported comment to him and that if he hated McCarthy so badly, why would he re-sign with the #Packers. Interview on @WildeAndTausch

Rodgers said Gutekunst called him and asked him to talk to LaFleur and told him that LaFleur was the top candidate. Then Murphy called and said Murphy said nothing like, "Don't be the problem." Called it patently false.

Rodgers said he used to joke with McCarthy about picking Alex Smith over him. Said he did not have a grudge. Says, "I love Mike McCarthy. We had our issues. But we dealt with those issues face-to-face. It would be at my house sometimes, at his house sometimes."

Rodgers said he and McCarthy also came to common ground after their disagreements and hugged each other and said, "I love you." Said he went to MM's office after his post-game Bills comments and apologized.

Rodgers said he thinks "we need to honor Mike. "We did some incredible things. Instead of trashing him on the way out, remember the great things we did. If you see Mike, shake his hand and tell him how much you appreciate what we accomplished."

Rodgers on regrets with MM: I wish I wouldn't have said anything after the Bills game.

Rodgers said he had a lot of latitude to change plays at the line of scrimmage. He said sometimes McCarthy gave him two plays in the huddle and had McCarthy gave him the ability to change the plays.

Rodgers said a coach and a quarterback don't win championships. Said it takes an organization to win championships.

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
Rodgers said the EQSB route that was reportedly changed in the huddle was a conversion route in which EQSB was facing press coverage and Rodgers thought he was running a go route, not a post. Said he corrected EQSB on the sideline.

[Fritz]

Well, a solid response from Rodgers. Shows respect for his old boss, answers some particular charges (see PB's post above), and gets a good shot in against Finley (visiting him in hospital, going to his place for extra review, etc).

That should put all this to bed. We, the fans, can return to our generally hopeful thoughts about the coming seasons. Maybe I can forgive Murphy for waiting a few years too long to make changes.

Hey, the Packers might win the Super Bowl this year! A slow start as they learn the system, a rush at the end, 10-6 and a run through the playoffs!

Whew, okay. I'm good now.

[pbmax]

I think you could take the Rodgers contract question further:

Given the timeframe of the named teammates, why did he sign his 2013 contract?

Audio about Jennings and Finley: https://twitter.com/WildeAndTausch/status/1115478029747269632

Story by Demovsky: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26473333/rodgers-disputes-claims-feud-mccarthy

They don't post each hour like a podcast anymore (that I can find), so I don't know where you go to find the entire interview, but this is the main website: https://t.co/crRZVtSuWV

[Deputy Nutz]

The article should be recognized for what it is, Rodgers is not wrong to call it a smear job, but at the same time did he grant an interview for the original article? At the end of the day the Packers are going to being playing football in September with Aaron Rodgers at QB. The team will go 8-8 under a new coach and hopefully the train can get on the right track.

News flash, Rodgers isn't perfect on the field or off the field, he is just trying to win games as the QB for the Green Bay Packers. He is no brain surgeon or space biologist, just like McCarthy isn't a cognitively disabled. Rodgers doesn't have to be a great person off the field, he just needs to be a good teammate and a great QB for the Green Bay Packers.

[pbmax]

I am posting this not because its that important, but because I want to post the comment that followed it.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3rCIvSXsAAVZ24.jpg:large


James H. @Holden_Twin
None of that matters, because in the hour of greatest need, Rodgers threw hail marys to you....TWICE! It showed at least when the game was on line, he had enough trust to throw the ball to you. Thanks for standing up for AR and MM. You're awesome!

[pbmax]

Answers to questions from Week 1 last year:

Wilde And Tausch @WildeAndTausch
"I had a tibial plateau fracture and obviously an MCL sprain..."
- @AaronRodgers12 on his Week 1 injury last season. #Packers

Aaron Rodgers says he got a series of shots in his knee as opposed to doing surgery after consulting with team doctor Pat McKenzie. Rodgers says he had a tibial plateau fracture in addition to an MCL sprain. #Packers


And from Week 17

Michael Cohen @Michael_Cohen13
Aaron Rodgers said the concussion in Week 17 was scary because he couldn't see, he lost vision. "It was the first time in my career that I've taken myself out of a game." Rodgers said his peripheral vision was drastically reduced. #Packers

[Deputy Nutz]

If nothing else, Rodgers is a liar. Proof ===== He took himself out of the game when his collarbone broke.

[mraynrand]

Answers to questions from Week 1 last year:

Wilde And Tausch @WildeAndTausch
"I had a tibial plateau fracture and obviously an MCL sprain..."
- @AaronRodgers12 on his Week 1 injury last season. #Packers

Aaron Rodgers says he got a series of shots in his knee as opposed to doing surgery after consulting with team doctor Pat McKenzie. Rodgers says he had a tibial plateau fracture in addition to an MCL sprain. #Packers


And from Week 17

Michael Cohen @Michael_Cohen13
Aaron Rodgers said the concussion in Week 17 was scary because he couldn't see, he lost vision. "It was the first time in my career that I've taken myself out of a game." Rodgers said his peripheral vision was drastically reduced. #Packers

And again, there was no reason to have him play week 17. Astonishingly stupid.

[mraynrand]

The article should be recognized for what it is, Rodgers is not wrong to call it a smear job, but at the same time did he grant an interview for the original article? At the end of the day the Packers are going to being playing football in September with Aaron Rodgers at QB. The team will go 8-8 under a new coach and hopefully the train can get on the right track.

News flash, Rodgers isn't perfect on the field or off the field, he is just trying to win games as the QB for the Green Bay Packers. He is no brain surgeon or space biologist, just like McCarthy isn't a cognitively disabled. Rodgers doesn't have to be a great person off the field, he just needs to be a good teammate and a great QB for the Green Bay Packers.

Good post, but I'd put a +/- 2 games around that 8-8. Could see as many as 10 and as few as 6 wins, APRH.

[run pMc]

A tibial plateau fracture is no joke. I would think it impacted his accuracy. I don't think that explains (or excuses) everything, but it must have contributed.
https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/features/tibial-plateau-fractures#1

Part of me would like to see a stronger run game and more in rhythm, in the pocket throws from Rodgers. The out of the pocket, "just get open" playground style of passing from Rodgers makes great highlights, but it's going to get him hurt more and more, and it's IMO producing diminishing returns.

The other part of me pessimistically thinks LaFleur will be over his head and unable to rein Rodgers in.

[Fritz]

"Part of me would like to see a stronger run game and more in rhythm, in the pocket throws from Rodgers. The out of the pocket, "just get open" playground style of passing from Rodgers makes great highlights, but it's going to get him hurt more and more, and it's IMO producing diminishing returns."

I don't know if this observation would hold up under statistical analysis, but my impression is that some of Rodgers's best games came when he was hobbled and unable to scramble. The Chicago early-season game last year, the playoff game against Seattle...those two come to mind. There may be others.

[pbmax]

I don't know if this observation would hold up under statistical analysis, but my impression is that some of Rodgers's best games came when he was hobbled and unable to scramble. The Chicago early-season game last year, the playoff game against Seattle...those two come to mind. There may be others.

I think at this point there is little doubt that Rodgers loves touchdown to check down as much as McCarthy ever did. He was not changing the play to slant/flat.

Physical harm is one way to stop him. Let's hope LaFleur has another.

[pbmax]

The Packer Ranter @PackerRanter
Greg Jennings only plays on a broken leg in a video game. Aaron Rodgers does it in real life.

[gbgary]

A tibial plateau fracture is no joke. I would think it impacted his accuracy. I don't think that explains (or excuses) everything, but it must have contributed.
https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/features/tibial-plateau-fractures#1

Part of me would like to see a stronger run game and more in rhythm, in the pocket throws from Rodgers. The out of the pocket, "just get open" playground style of passing from Rodgers makes great highlights, but it's going to get him hurt more and more, and it's IMO producing diminishing returns.

The other part of me pessimistically thinks LaFleur will be over his head and unable to rein Rodgers in.
yeah, googled it when i first heard it. some of the x-rays look terrible, others you can't see a thing. his must have been one of the latter. was listening to Green Bay/Milwaukee local radio today and there's speculation that the team doctor (mckenzie) wouldn't have let rodgers play with a broken leg. hmmm

[pbmax]

yeah, googled it when i first heard it. some of the x-rays look terrible, others you can't see a thing. his must have been one of the latter. was listening to Green Bay/Milwaukee local radio today and there's speculation that the team doctor (mckenzie) wouldn't have let rodgers play with a broken leg. hmmm

The problem is with the phrase broken leg. Jack Youngblood played with a broken leg too, but I think it was later confirmed a fracture as well.

Not saying a fracture is painless or without risk, but broken leg makes it sound like one of the two bones has been split in half, but the reality is far less egregious. Saying broken leg just makes everything else dumber.

[Joemailman]

yeah, googled it when i first heard it. some of the x-rays look terrible, others you can't see a thing. his must have been one of the latter. was listening to Green Bay/Milwaukee local radio today and there's speculation that the team doctor (mckenzie) wouldn't have let rodgers play with a broken leg. hmmm

Late in 2017, yhey let him play with a broken collarbone that they knew wäs not fully healed.

[mraynrand]

yeah, googled it when i first heard it. some of the x-rays look terrible, others you can't see a thing. his must have been one of the latter. was listening to Green Bay/Milwaukee local radio today and there's speculation that the team doctor (mckenzie) wouldn't have let rodgers play with a broken leg. hmmm

yep, most of these are just bone bruises. The speculation is just that. without seeing the actual scans - x-rays and MRIs - there's nothing to be learned from this.

[pbmax]

yep, most of these are just bone bruises. The speculation is just that. without seeing the actual scans - x-rays and MRIs - there's nothing to be learned from this.

We do know more than we did. It was 2 injuries and we have the names. Anyone know what the recovery range time is for each?

[mraynrand]

nm

[mraynrand]

We do know more than we did. It was 2 injuries and we have the names. Anyone know what the recovery range time is for each?

The tibial plateau could be anything. Most likely a bruise so it’s long healed. Even a fracture would be healed by now unless something funny is going on.

I’m more concerned about the totally unnecessary concussion in week 17.

[call_me_ishmael]

Late in 2017, yhey let him play with a broken collarbone that they knew wäs not fully healed.

He was medically cleared, and it was "healed", just maybe not 100%. Is a broken collarbone ever truly 100% again?

[Joemailman]

He was medically cleared, and it was "healed", just maybe not 100%. Is a broken collarbone ever truly 100% again?

They made a calculated gamble he could play without reinjuring the collarbone. But the first time he got sacked, when he returned to the sideline the whole medical crew surrounded him to see if he was okay. After the Packers lost and were eliminated from the playoffs, they put Rodgers back on IR. He was cleared to play, but I'm not sure he should have been. I'm not sure about 2018 either.

[gbgary]

tibial plateau fractures (https://www.google.com/search?q=tibia+plateau+fracture&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS590US590&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi91oqG5cjhAhWKjVQKHfrJDegQ_AUIDigB&biw=1280&bih=881)

[pbmax]

So Dez Bryant had one. And you have to be rooting for Type 3.


https://radiologykey.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/C9-FF27-3.gif

[mraynrand]

Obviously, you aren't gonna be playing on anything more severe than type III, and maybe not even as severe as the type III depicted.

[pbmax]

Obviously, you aren't gonna be playing on anything more severe than type III, and maybe not even as severe as the type III depicted.

Couldn't just tape up Type 2?

[Fritz]

A tibial plateau fracture is a fissure on the plateaus of Tibia, which is in northern mongolia.

Everyone knows that.

[gbgary]

lol

[call_me_ishmael]

I have long said signing him to the big deal was a mistake. This article jives with my thoughts well.
https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/04/15/silverstein-delaying-rodgers-deal-wouldve-given-packers-trade-option/3475334002/

Rodgers had no leverage but they gave him a bunch with that deal. The franchise option will look like a bargain. Not saying they should go that route, but they should have waited a year. No doubt his contract is less money had they just waited a year. Another year of mileage, injury, bad stats, etc.

In general, I think we're going to see teams pull back from paying QB salaries. It's sort of silly how inflated they are right now with no path towards correction. It is an albatross to a team unless the QB is a truly special, game changing talent. How many top draft picks at QB have busted lately? I think QBs are trained much better today, people scout them much better, and in general changes to the game/rules have made it more QB friendly. I believe you can win with an above average QB on a rookie deal vs a premier QB at an insane price. That's my theory anyway. I think we'll see some teams test out that theory in the coming years. It's a challenge this year since this is a historically poor year for QBs in the draft.

[run pMc]

I have long said signing him to the big deal was a mistake. This article jives with my thoughts well.
https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/04/15/silverstein-delaying-rodgers-deal-wouldve-given-packers-trade-option/3475334002/

Rodgers had no leverage but they gave him a bunch with that deal. The franchise option will look like a bargain. Not saying they should go that route, but they should have waited a year. No doubt his contract is less money had they just waited a year. Another year of mileage, injury, bad stats, etc.

In general, I think we're going to see teams pull back from paying QB salaries. It's sort of silly how inflated they are right now with no path towards correction. It is an albatross to a team unless the QB is a truly special, game changing talent. How many top draft picks at QB have busted lately? I think QBs are trained much better today, people scout them much better, and in general changes to the game/rules have made it more QB friendly. I believe you can win with an above average QB on a rookie deal vs a premier QB at an insane price. That's my theory anyway. I think we'll see some teams test out that theory in the coming years. It's a challenge this year since this is a historically poor year for QBs in the draft.

I think we saw it with young Russell Wilson/Colin Kaepernick, and now Mahomes and possibly Trubisky. If you sign a non-top10 QB to a top-10 contract your team can find itself in trouble, and if you find an above average QB on the cheap (draft) and have enough other pieces around them you can make some noise.

I think Rodgers can play up to his contract, and I think he wants to. If he does then the contract is worth it because he can be elite. The young WRs need to improve, and the defense needs to grow and build on last year.

[call_me_ishmael]

Had a hypothetical thought in the shower today. Could never happen due to contracts and guaranteed money. Would you take Rodgers for Russ Wilson and a first and third round pick? I think I would.

[pbmax]

I have long said signing him to the big deal was a mistake. This article jives with my thoughts well.
https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/04/15/silverstein-delaying-rodgers-deal-wouldve-given-packers-trade-option/3475334002/

Rodgers had no leverage but they gave him a bunch with that deal. The franchise option will look like a bargain. Not saying they should go that route, but they should have waited a year. No doubt his contract is less money had they just waited a year. Another year of mileage, injury, bad stats, etc.

In general, I think we're going to see teams pull back from paying QB salaries. It's sort of silly how inflated they are right now with no path towards correction. It is an albatross to a team unless the QB is a truly special, game changing talent. How many top draft picks at QB have busted lately? I think QBs are trained much better today, people scout them much better, and in general changes to the game/rules have made it more QB friendly. I believe you can win with an above average QB on a rookie deal vs a premier QB at an insane price. That's my theory anyway. I think we'll see some teams test out that theory in the coming years. It's a challenge this year since this is a historically poor year for QBs in the draft.

No leverage, huh? QBs don't get cheaper year by year. As you say, with no correction in sight, signing him early made fine sense. He's the best player on the team and they have no backup plan. Maybe if you thought Baker Mayfield was the answer last year you go get him and play hardball. But they didn't.

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
Russell Wilson and the Seahawks reached agreement on a 4-year, $140 million in new money extension that includes a $65 million signing bonus, per source.

[pbmax]

Ian Rapoport @RapSheet
For the #Seahawks and QB Russell Wilson, it’s a 4-year extension worth $140M, source said. He beats Aaron Rogers as the highest-paid player in the NFL.

[pbmax]

From the Silverstein article:


There aren’t any can’t-miss quarterback prospects this year, but who’s to say Seattle or Green Bay couldn’t win with Oklahoma’s Kyler Murray, Ohio State’s Dwayne Haskins or Missouri’s Drew Lock? Or maybe they gather draft capital and wait until next season when they’d have a shot at the highly touted 2020 QB class that includes Alabama’s Tua Tagovailoa, Oregon’s Justin Herbert and Georgia’s Jake Fromm?

Well. I will say it. You trade Rodgers, spend more money on FA and draft one of those QBs, you won't win appreciably for two years. Baker Mayfield was a hit as a rookie because of the terrible franchise/constant rebuild effect. They had some top line talent before he got there, especially on defense.

[pbmax]

RapSheet says there is a no-trade clause in this deal.

[call_me_ishmael]

From the Silverstein article:



Well. I will say it. You trade Rodgers, spend more money on FA and draft one of those QBs, you won't win appreciably for two years. Baker Mayfield was a hit as a rookie because of the terrible franchise/constant rebuild effect. They had some top line talent before he got there, especially on defense.

I agree the QB class is hot garbage this year. It's quite unusual. It's historically bad it seems. I disagree that the Browns are winning because of the talent they had and not Mayfield. They weren't winning when he wasn't starting. Look at the dude in Chicago, Philly, Rams, etc. Young QBs are winning a lot these days. RG3 was great before injuries robbed him of his talent. Luck is obviously fantastic. I am a big believer that QBs, QB coaching, rules and systems are all aligning towards the same place where life is much easier for a QB.

To respond to your other response, I'm not so sure I agree. Rodgers signed for a historic amount of money and reset the scale. His contract is an albatross and I am sure all the other QBs love it but all of the other franchises are thinking if someone isn't a young Andy Luck or Russell Wilson it may be a good idea to punt and go young. They didn't need to act on him for 2-4 years. They chose to, and it may have been a poor choice. We'll get a lot more clarity into whether it was a good or bad choice this year.

[pbmax]

I agree the QB class is hot garbage this year. It's quite unusual. It's historically bad it seems. I disagree that the Browns are winning because of the talent they had and not Mayfield. They weren't winning when he wasn't starting. Look at the dude in Chicago, Philly, Rams, etc. Young QBs are winning a lot these days. RG3 was great before injuries robbed him of his talent. Luck is obviously fantastic. I am a big believer that QBs, QB coaching, rules and systems are all aligning towards the same place where life is much easier for a QB.

To respond to your other response, I'm not so sure I agree. Rodgers signed for a historic amount of money and reset the scale. His contract is an albatross and I am sure all the other QBs love it but all of the other franchises are thinking if someone isn't a young Andy Luck or Russell Wilson it may be a good idea to punt and go young. They didn't need to act on him for 2-4 years. They chose to, and it may have been a poor choice. We'll get a lot more clarity into whether it was a good or bad choice this year.


They could have waited a year and then they would be bidding against the now known Wilson contract. Wilson (reportedly) just topped the biggest QB deal. AR would have had another poor year (2018), but I do not think that tempers the Packers or Rodgers salary expectations. His contract would therefore be larger. It would also have impeded FA signings this spring if they don't know the numbers. There is value to the team in having large costs known.

They could have waited 2 years and its possible another modest year lowers his cost. But its probably just as likely Rodgers carries the offense again and gets more expensive, though at this point, there could be true disagreement among the parties. This is where the Packers and Rodgers might really disagree about value and I think its almost impossible to sign Rodgers if they view him as declining in effectiveness while negotiating after the 2019 season.

Which raises a question: how many years do you need to pro-rate the bonus to make the contract doable? Packers traditionally have done the full five for market value signing bonuses. If you wait 2 seasons to sign a five year deal, then you really are playing with serious money at the end of his career. I think a fair judgement about Rodgers age and health mean the sooner you get the five year deal started, the better off you both are. I think both sides WANTED it to be done the same as last time, with 2 years to go.

I also sincerely doubt a QB of Rodgers stature would play for the tag. He'd hold out and wait for the collapse. If that is the team strategy, you need to invest first round resources in finding a QB to replace him because that replacement is not on the roster. You have two years to do it while you are pissing your current QB off. That might be four years of limbo trying to prepare for a QB succession. I don't think Gute or Murphy has that kind of patience.

Thompson pulled it off with a draft steal, 3 years of info about Rodgers and the whole organization behind him. Plus Favre using his leverage to get the team back into win now mode. Those factors aren't there anymore.

No, I don't think waiting to do a deal makes any sense. The only other plan that made sense was Gary's. He wanted to trade Rodgers before the deal was done, even soon enough to grab Mayfield.

That makes some sense, as the contract question goes away and you likely get maximum value back for Rodgers.

Mayfield struggled with that offense until Kitchens took it over and modified it. We'll see if it continues to upswing or people figure the two of them out. Unscouted looks are very valuable.

[run pMc]

I'm not impressed with this year's draft crop of QBs.
I don't think signing Rodgers was a mistake -- they didn't exactly have someone in the pipeline (Kizer lol), and he hasn't been giving them the "will he, won't he" Favre retirement treatment.
Cousins fully guaranteed contract changed things IMO.
Silverstein's article feels like a clickbait assignment from the Editor's desk. I don't believe for a second he'd seriously entertain trading a proven QB for an unknown rookie QB and expect them to challenge for the NFCN when paired up with their defense and a first time head coach. I'm not even sure Matt Millen would do something that dumb. It's all just a mental exercise intended to get people's attention.

What's a QB who throws for 4000yds and doesn't turn the ball over worth? What are they worth if they've won the SB and been to the NFC Championship a few times and won the MVP?

[pbmax]

I'm not impressed with this year's draft crop of QBs.
I don't think signing Rodgers was a mistake -- they didn't exactly have someone in the pipeline (Kizer lol), and he hasn't been giving them the "will he, won't he" Favre retirement treatment.
Cousins fully guaranteed contract changed things IMO.
Silverstein's article feels like a clickbait assignment from the Editor's desk. I don't believe for a second he'd seriously entertain trading a proven QB for an unknown rookie QB and expect them to challenge for the NFCN when paired up with their defense and a first time head coach. I'm not even sure Matt Millen would do something that dumb. It's all just a mental exercise intended to get people's attention.

What's a QB who throws for 4000yds and doesn't turn the ball over worth? What are they worth if they've won the SB and been to the NFC Championship a few times and won the MVP?

It would be worth it if you doubted your ability to turn around the franchise on a dime. If you really needed a two year rebuild, tear it down to the studs.

Will be interesting to think about this after the draft: does Gute think he is in Year 2 of a reload or is it Year 1 of winning again?

[Rutnstrut]

They could have waited a year and then they would be bidding against the now known Wilson contract. Wilson (reportedly) just topped the biggest QB deal. AR would have had another poor year (2018), but I do not think that tempers the Packers or Rodgers salary expectations. His contract would therefore be larger. It would also have impeded FA signings this spring if they don't know the numbers. There is value to the team in having large costs known.

They could have waited 2 years and its possible another modest year lowers his cost. But its probably just as likely Rodgers carries the offense again and gets more expensive, though at this point, there could be true disagreement among the parties. This is where the Packers and Rodgers might really disagree about value and I think its almost impossible to sign Rodgers if they view him as declining in effectiveness while negotiating after the 2019 season.

Which raises a question: how many years do you need to pro-rate the bonus to make the contract doable? Packers traditionally have done the full five for market value signing bonuses. If you wait 2 seasons to sign a five year deal, then you really are playing with serious money at the end of his career. I think a fair judgement about Rodgers age and health mean the sooner you get the five year deal started, the better off you both are. I think both sides WANTED it to be done the same as last time, with 2 years to go.

I also sincerely doubt a QB of Rodgers stature would play for the tag. He'd hold out and wait for the collapse. If that is the team strategy, you need to invest first round resources in finding a QB to replace him because that replacement is not on the roster. You have two years to do it while you are pissing your current QB off. That might be four years of limbo trying to prepare for a QB succession. I don't think Gute or Murphy has that kind of patience.

Thompson pulled it off with a draft steal, 3 years of info about Rodgers and the whole organization behind him. Plus Favre using his leverage to get the team back into win now mode. Those factors aren't there anymore.

No, I don't think waiting to do a deal makes any sense. The only other plan that made sense was Gary's. He wanted to trade Rodgers before the deal was done, even soon enough to grab Mayfield.

That makes some sense, as the contract question goes away and you likely get maximum value back for Rodgers.

Mayfield struggled with that offense until Kitchens took it over and modified it. We'll see if it continues to upswing or people figure the two of them out. Unscouted looks are very valuable.





It's also very possible he gets hurt yet again this year, which would have made him even cheaper.

[pbmax]

It's also very possible he gets hurt yet again this year, which would have made him even cheaper.

Yeah, but what if he is hurt for four games and is lights out for 12? It could go a lot of ways. He was QB on a 4-1 team when Barr planted him. If its a separated shoulder rather than clavicle, 2017 looks very different.

But I am pretty sure both sides wanted to bet on the youngest version of Rodgers which is why both sides were happy to do the deal.

Its possible Murphy played a role because he was talking about it before Gute was. But Murphy seems like a consensus guy, so I think this was the personnel side's base position.

[gbgary]

Ian Rapoport @RapSheet
For the #Seahawks and QB Russell Wilson, it’s a 4-year extension worth $140M, source said. He beats Aaron Rogers as the highest-paid player in the NFL.

another dumb qb contract.

[run pMc]

It would be worth it if you doubted your ability to turn around the franchise on a dime. If you really needed a two year rebuild, tear it down to the studs.

Will be interesting to think about this after the draft: does Gute think he is in Year 2 of a reload or is it Year 1 of winning again?

It would also be worth it if you could trade him for multiple picks a la the Khalil Mack trade and it was a good draft for QBs. It's awful hard to rebound without a quality starting QB, and when you find one you keep them until they aren't a quality-starter. I still think Rodgers is.
I agree it will be interesting to see Gute's approach and attitude. Hiring a young coach like LaFleur makes it a little harder to judge, but from a personnel side TT had a couple of dud drafts and IMO Gute is off to a reasonably good start at cleaning up the mess.

[texaspackerbacker]

It would be all out bonehead stupid to trade the GOAT QB who likely still has 5 to 10 years of excellency left and getting basically a pig in a poke - which is what happens when you draft even a QB of proven excellence in college. Even if you get lucky and the QB you draft turns out to be NFL-good, it's almost certain he will be way short of Aaron Rodgers-good.

[pbmax]

It would also be worth it if you could trade him for multiple picks a la the Khalil Mack trade and it was a good draft for QBs. It's awful hard to rebound without a quality starting QB, and when you find one you keep them until they aren't a quality-starter. I still think Rodgers is.
I agree it will be interesting to see Gute's approach and attitude. Hiring a young coach like LaFleur makes it a little harder to judge, but from a personnel side TT had a couple of dud drafts and IMO Gute is off to a reasonably good start at cleaning up the mess.

Agree about QB certainty. It would have been an easy call if you can get the #1 pick and Andrew Luck is available.

[run pMc]

As far as whether the timing was bad in signing Rodgers, I think signing him and extending the cost of the contract over more years is better, although it could be argued he might have costed less if they waited until this offseason (based on his recent performance). I doubt it though - QB contracts aren't going down. Paying out $100M in the first 12 months is pretty steep, but assuming MLF can keep him healthy he could have a bounceback year and make the argument feel silly in a year.

That said, how likely is Rodgers going to stay healthy for a full season? They will need to look at a quality backup/eventual successor, and Boyle is probably not it. Kizer frightens me. I don't think this is the draft for a successor, but I have to think they will look at next year's group.
Would you trade a R3 pick for Rosen?

[ThunderDan]

I would argue that ARod has a good chance of staying healthy all year.

It doesn't matter who you are if you get planted like ARod did by Anthony Barr you are going to break your collarbone. And getting your leg landed on by a 300 lbs person while in that position it is going to receive sever damage.

Those injuries to me is like an OL or DL getting rolled up from behind and blowing their knee or ankle out. It wasn't their fault and they aren't injury prone. Sometimes in a violent sport there is collateral damage.

[MadScientist]

I would argue that ARod has a good chance of staying healthy all year.

It doesn't matter who you are if you get planted like ARod did by Anthony Barr you are going to break your collarbone. And getting your leg landed on by a 300 lbs person while in that position it is going to receive sever damage.

Those injuries to me is like an OL or DL getting rolled up from behind and blowing their knee or ankle out. It wasn't their fault and they aren't injury prone. Sometimes in a violent sport there is collateral damage.

You make an argument that Rodgers is not inherently injury prone, but staying healthy all season will depend on having a line that can actually stop Mack and the other top rushers, having receivers that are getting open on time and Rodgers not holding the ball for the big play very much. If M3 were still in charge, I'd say Rodgers would be out by week 3. With the new staff, it might be hope and wishful thinking, but at least there is some cause for hope.

[denverYooper]

You make an argument that Rodgers is not inherently injury prone, but staying healthy all season will depend on having a line that can actually stop Mack and the other top rushers, having receivers that are getting open on time and Rodgers not holding the ball for the big play very much. If M3 were still in charge, I'd say Rodgers would be out by week 3. With the new staff, it might be hope and wishful thinking, but at least there is some cause for hope.

I think that was part of the goal in hiring the new staff -- get the ball out of Rodgers's hands faster, keep him from getting hit as much. My gut feeling is they'll get a bump for a while running a new system because they will be using their offensive personnel (esp Rodgers) differently than the last several years. The question will be what happens when the film catches up.

[pbmax]

I think that was part of the goal in hiring the new staff -- get the ball out of Rodgers's hands faster, keep him from getting hit as much. My gut feeling is they'll get a bump for a while running a new system because they will be using their offensive personnel (esp Rodgers) differently than the last several years. The question will be what happens when the film catches up.

I definitely think his offense helped assuage concerns, even if it wasn't priority one.

But now I really wish the Packers had kept JC Tretter, the poor man's Mike Flanagan*.



* I know, I know, from a cap perspective, it wasn't going to happen.

[gbgary]

please tell me it's not starting already. this doesn't sound like someone who's buying-in, wants to be coached, or wants to make the Packers O less predictable...

Rodgers wants to target Adams more in 2019 (https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/1782436 via @theScoreRodgers wants to target Adams more in 2019)

[texaspackerbacker]

It DISGUSTS me to even see this rotten excuse for a thread resurrected again. Fuck the God damned ingrates who see Aaron Rodgers as anything less than the best in the NFL now and in fact, the greatest ever.

Buying in? It sounds like some in here think the new coach is stupid enough to buy in to de-emphasizing the passing game and shit like that. Dream on.

I absolutely do not want Aaron Rodgers changing what he does. If there is any offensive changing going on, it should be a little bit more creativity in pass routes, emphasis on receivers continuing to try and get open after the original route, etc.

As for targeting Adams more, whatever. Probably that was just Rodgers giving a generic answer to a stupid question from the damned media. Spreading it around just for the sake of spreading it around is not a good thing, although I doubt Rodgers ever did that. It's more about hitting the open receiver. Making the young guys prove they can get open ain't a bad way to go. I expect MVS and St. Brown to do that way more than Cobb did. The media puke writing the article didn't even include Moore in his list of WRs. However, that probably says more about his poor quality of writing than anything else.

[mraynrand]

It DISGUSTS me to even see this rotten excuse for a thread resurrected again. Fuck the God damned ingrates who see Aaron Rodgers as anything less than the best in the NFL now and in fact, the greatest ever.

This is an effective opening salvo to bring people to your point of view.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/Dale_Carnegie.jpg

[texaspackerbacker]

Gosh, do ya think I should take it back and go for more kindness and gentility? Naw, too much trouble to edit it hahahahahahaha.

[mraynrand]

I absolutely do not want Aaron Rodgers changing what he does.

Doesn't this depend on knowing what he does? What if he's changing called plays to the detriment of the offense's success?

[run pMc]

please tell me it's not starting already. this doesn't sound like someone who's buying-in, wants to be coached, or wants to make the Packers O less predictable...

Rodgers wants to target Adams more in 2019 (https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/1782436 via @theScoreRodgers wants to target Adams more in 2019)

I call BS on this. If Adams is truly "always open" he should always be getting the ball. I mean, shouldn't Rodgers be throwing to the open receiver? It's all exaggeration, and quite possibly some kind of psychological thing aimed at the other WRs to mimic Adams and do a better job of getting open. I don't think Adams gets > 160 targets this year.

[MadScientist]

I'm ok with Adams getting more touches if the reason is that he's the best receiver on the best offense in the league, and the defense gives them more opportunities.

[pbmax]

Adams could do better on TDs and yards. Not sure he is getting more than 111 catches.

I think Rodgers is just giving the best guy on his team his due.

[gbgary]

Adams could do better on TDs and yards. Not sure he is getting more than 111 catches.

I think Rodgers is just giving the best guy on his team his due.

i sure hope so. we all know he talks to the powers-that-be through the press though. i was cautiously optimistic he'd buy-in and play in the structure of the new O. that would mean a complete change of spots which might be impossible since he's played without structure for so long. if this is a not-so-subliminal message...it isn't good. i guess we'll see.

[texaspackerbacker]

Doesn't this depend on knowing what he does? What if he's changing called plays to the detriment of the offense's success?

You seriously think that happens anything other than extremely rarely? I sure as hell don't.

I say again, a smart coach - which hopefully LaFleur is - will build his offense around what Aaron Rodgers does and does better than anybody else in history, with maybe just a tad bit of fine tuning.

[pbmax]

You seriously think that happens anything other than extremely rarely? I sure as hell don't.

I say again, a smart coach - which hopefully LaFleur is - will build his offense around what Aaron Rodgers does and does better than anybody else in history, with maybe just a tad bit of fine tuning.

I tend to agree about how to align the offense. No reason to ask a great QB to be a different QB.

But in the previous version of this offense, Rodgers' forte has not been the 10 pass TD drive with 8 first downs. You get that out of La Fleur's offense (maybe its 5 runs and 5 passes) plus a developing long passing game with MVS, Brown or Allison, then you really have something. But sometimes, especially in the playoffs, you just need a first down in a bad way.

And yes, slug or not, Allison has the body type to be a version of the James Jones rebounding deep pass collector.

[mraynrand]

You seriously think that happens anything other than extremely rarely? I sure as hell don't.

I'm not sure. What did your investigation into it reveal?

[MadScientist]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-we-sure-aaron-rodgers-is-still-an-elite-quarterback/
Interesting analysis of Rodgers' struggles the few years, but with hope for a future return to glory with a better scheme. Side note that better TE play would help as well.

[RashanGary]

I call BS on this. If Adams is truly "always open" he should always be getting the ball. I mean, shouldn't Rodgers be throwing to the open receiver? It's all exaggeration, and quite possibly some kind of psychological thing aimed at the other WRs to mimic Adams and do a better job of getting open. I don't think Adams gets > 160 targets this year.

Interesting!

[RashanGary]

Goff said he needs to have audible answers to avoid being smothered like he was by NE. Maybe Rodgers experience will blend with Lafleurs and strike that perfect balance! Or maybe it will be a conflict that blows up in their faces. But it could go a number of ways, some of which are very positive.

[Radagast]

Winning can be like magic, it can make things disappear. This sports reporter generated flap between HC LaFleur and Rodgers may have had a crumb of a truth to begin with, but like hungry Sharks that smell blood in the water, the media has grabbed a hold on it and refused to let go. This non-story will melt into earth like rain on a practice field. Sure LaFleur and Rodgers have to become accustomed to working together, but I've not seen either disrespect the other like the press would just love to report.

I pay little to no attention to talking TV Heads or to those looking to self promote with a sensational news "Splash". Instead I rely on those meat and potatoes guys reporting from the trenches of the practice fields. Using their more trusted stories and my own independent research, I make my own mind up about players, teams, coaches, and trades/deals.

[Joemailman]

Goff said he needs to have audible answers to avoid being smothered like he was by NE. Maybe Rodgers experience will blend with Lafleurs and strike that perfect balance! Or maybe it will be a conflict that blows up in their faces. But it could go a number of ways, some of which are very positive.

That's pretty much it. Arod and MLF will fight with each other or enhance each other. Rodgers kind of took things into his own hands last year because he had lost confidence in MM's offense. Not defending him, but he had his reasons. Earlier this year Hackett said that ultimately they want to get to a point where Rodgers will often be able to anticipate what the call is going to be. If they can all get on the same page, this offense can be better than what we've seen from the McVay/Shanahan/LaFleur coaching tree because Rodgers is a better QB than those guys had.

[mraynrand]

Winning can be like magic, it can make things disappear.

Magic can also cut things in half.

[RashanGary]

I’ve listened to every Rodgers interview and press conference of the offseason and TC. Early on he seemed cocky and arrogant and selfish. I must say, I give him a break. It was a lot of change, fast, and he was bombarded with questions suggesting he might be the problem. Honestly, he didn’t answer perfectly early on but he’s really impressed me lately. His obsession with the offense is inspiring and gives me confidence. His passion for the scheme and confidence are contagious. He’s done a complete 180 and I’m just gonna own my mistake in being too hard on him early in the transition. He’s doing awesome in every way I know how to measure right now.

[RashanGary]

Also, in my time as a Packer fan, I’ve never seen a more maniacal practice player. He’s intense. You can tell LaFleur loves him.

[Bretsky]

Also, in my time as a Packer fan, I’ve never seen a more maniacal practice player. He’s intense. You can tell LaFleur loves him.


Silverstein was the first to throw a Dart at MattyFloor writing it was a mistake to sit Rodgers game 1

[bobblehead]

Silverstein was the first to throw a Dart at MattyFloor writing it was a mistake to sit Rodgers game 1

I threw that dart awhile ago. I don't think you get ready for the bears by watching Kizer play.

But what do I know. Last year fat mike rested Bulaga all preseason and then trotted him out to iso on Mack...that worked out right...right??

And yes, I know Bulaga was "hurt" last preseason.

[pbmax]

And yes, I know Bulaga was "hurt" last preseason.

Possible Rodgers back has been acting up too. Just a guess but its an issue now.

I would rather have him healthy than fully practiced and on the Inactive list.

[mraynrand]

Rodger's back is just the sign of an aging man. When you get past you mid twenties, you realize that you don't completely recover the day after a strenuous workout - not enough to repeat it day after day. When you reach 30, your soreness lasts a day longer than it did 5 years ago. When you reach 40, you can't recall what you did that would make you sore. After a strenuous workout, you realize that a day off isn't really sufficient to recover. When you reach 50, your achilles goes out when you make a simple quick move tossing the football around in the back yard. When you reach 60, it takes half the day just to get your body loose enough to move. When you reach 70, those flowers next to the headstone smell nice - to the person who put them there.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Rodger's back is just the sign of an aging man. When you get past you mid twenties, you realize that you don't completely recover the day after a strenuous workout - not enough to repeat it day after day. When you reach 30, your soreness lasts a day longer than it did 5 years ago. When you reach 40, you can't recall what you did that would make you sore. After a strenuous workout, you realize that a day off isn't really sufficient to recover. When you reach 50, your achilles goes out when you make a simple quick move tossing the football around in the back yard. When you reach 60, it takes half the day just to get your body loose enough to move. When you reach 70, those flowers next to the headstone smell nice - to the person who put them there.

Maybe you just need to do more sit-ups, about 5000 a day or so should do it.

[texaspackerbacker]

Rodger's back is just the sign of an aging man. When you get past you mid twenties, you realize that you don't completely recover the day after a strenuous workout - not enough to repeat it day after day. When you reach 30, your soreness lasts a day longer than it did 5 years ago. When you reach 40, you can't recall what you did that would make you sore. After a strenuous workout, you realize that a day off isn't really sufficient to recover. When you reach 50, your achilles goes out when you make a simple quick move tossing the football around in the back yard. When you reach 60, it takes half the day just to get your body loose enough to move. When you reach 70, those flowers next to the headstone smell nice - to the person who put them there.

At age 72 and playing 2 or 3 sets of tennis 4 or 5 days a week, I beg to differ hahahahaha.

[bobblehead]

Possible Rodgers back has been acting up too. Just a guess but its an issue now.

I would rather have him healthy than fully practiced and on the Inactive list.

Possible. Rodgers ain't 42 though, he is 35. At 35 I was still close to my peak as I stayed in shape. He has 30 million reasons to be in peak physical shape.

Maybe its a legit injury. Maybe the new boss is same as the old boss. All hail the king!!

[mraynrand]

At age 72 and playing 2 or 3 sets of tennis 4 or 5 days a week, I beg to differ hahahahaha.

Did you play football for your entire life into your thirties? Talking about pro players here.

[pbmax]

Marvel at the ability of weekend athletes to compare themselves to professionals. Its always astonishing.

[pbmax]

Did you play football for your entire life into your thirties? Talking about pro players here.

A pro player with a bad wheel. Easy to develop another injury if you are slightly compensating for the first.

Of course, this could all be a smokescreen to keep Rodgers out of the preseason altogether.

[Rutnstrut]

Marvel at the ability of weekend athletes to compare themselves to professionals. Its always astonishing.


Maybe not weekend athletes, but. I have respect for any blue collar worker that does physical work and works hard day after day, year after year. Not nearly as much respect for any pro athlete making millions that sits out for every little bump and bruise. That more than anything is why I liked Favre so much.

[RashanGary]

At age 72 and playing 2 or 3 sets of tennis 4 or 5 days a week, I beg to differ hahahahaha.

Glad to hear Tex. I’m 38, take good care of my body. Gives me hope of a long, energetic life!

Part of why I still think Graham has it. At 33 i could do everything so i know he’s got more!

[mraynrand]

Glad to hear Tex. I’m 38, take good care of my body. Gives me hope of a long, energetic life!

Part of why I still think Graham has it. At 33 i could do everything so i know he’s got more!

Did you have a degenerative knee from playing football your whole life? Seriously, be a little realistic.

[mraynrand]

Maybe not weekend athletes, but. I have respect for any blue collar worker that does physical work and works hard day after day, year after year. Not nearly as much respect for any pro athlete making millions that sits out for every little bump and bruise. That more than anything is why I liked Favre so much.

Depending on the type of blue collar work, it can take far more out of you than even the longest, ironman NFL career.

[texaspackerbacker]

Marvel at the ability of weekend athletes to compare themselves to professionals. Its always astonishing.

Point taken ...... but he was talking about 50s, 60s, and 70s. Nobody other than maybe Blanda or Favre's next comeback made it even to the low end of that.

How many professionals or others make a quick move and their achilles goes out even without contact even in their 20s and 30s? There's a degree of luck involved.

As for the comparison, it strikes me as odd or something that so many professionals - not just in football - get these minor or major injuries for seemingly small insignificant moves, hits, etc. - when many of us "weekend athletes" don't get stuff like that despite making some pretty quick sharp moves, taking an occasional fall, etc. even to advance ages.

Personally, I don't take much care of my body - other than the tennis, of course, and I sure as hell don't "eat right" hahahahaha. And I'm maybe 20 or 30 pounds overweight. All of that leads me to conclude that just maybe conditioning, doing what professional athletes do, at best doesn't help much, and at worst might make them a bit "muscle bound" or whatever and actually worsen their chances for playing without injury.

[mraynrand]

Point taken ...... but he was talking about 50s, 60s, and 70s. Nobody other than maybe Blanda or Favre's next comeback made it even to the low end of that.

Uhh, that would be after they retire.

[pbmax]

Maybe not weekend athletes, but. I have respect for any blue collar worker that does physical work and works hard day after day, year after year. Not nearly as much respect for any pro athlete making millions that sits out for every little bump and bruise. That more than anything is why I liked Favre so much.

As Mike Holmgren once said, if, at the end of each rotation, turn or bolt assembly they take a baseball bat to the ribs, then we might be talking about a football simulation. I know dry wallers near retirement age can do that job as well as their younger counterparts even though it all hurts. But you can't be a 55 year old football player.

There is also the fact of their compensation and talent level, many NFL guys are not easily replaceable.

There is nothing wrong with nor easy about manual labor jobs. But unless you work in a paper mill, no one is usually trying to kill you/knock you out until next shift.

https://www.wisn.com/article/man-convicted-in-green-bay-paper-mill-vat-death-in-1990s-released-from-prison/28267620

I can think of one comparison and there are probably more: carpet installers that used the knee activated stretcher usually need new knees before the time they are thinking about retiring. But even that device went by the wayside eventually. Now it has a ratchet handle.

[mraynrand]

As Mike Holmgren once said, if, at the end of each rotation, turn or bolt assembly they take a baseball bat to the ribs, then we might be talking about a football simulation.

Did he really say that? Because I know blue collar workers who would agree to getting beaten for 48 hours (1.5 hoursx16 games + 24 hours more for preseason and camp) instead of the grueling 2500 hours/year of their jobs. Heat, fumes, strain, stench. My dad worked at Trostel Tannery 16 hours a day over summers to pay for school. He'd take a pro athlete's life in exchange in a second and so would the guys who worked there every day.

"Oh, what I wouldn't give to be spat at in the face! Sometimes I hang awake at night, dreaming of being spat at in the face..."
http://newsite.annotatedmst.com/tinymce/plugins/moxiemanager/data/files/Mole%20People/life%20of%20brian.jpg

[texaspackerbacker]

Uhh, that would be after they retire.

Your scenario was meant to be realistic for a retired athlete? Come on!

[Upnorth]

Did he really say that? Because I know blue collar workers who would agree to getting beaten for 48 hours (1.5 hoursx16 games + 24 hours more for preseason and camp) instead of the grueling 2500 hours/year of their jobs. Heat, fumes, strain, stench. My dad worked at Trostel Tannery 16 hours a day over summers to pay for school. He'd take a pro athlete's life in exchange in a second and so would the guys who worked there every day.

"Oh, what I wouldn't give to be spat at in the face! Sometimes I hang awake at night, dreaming of being spat at in the face..."
http://newsite.annotatedmst.com/tinymce/plugins/moxiemanager/data/files/Mole%20People/life%20of%20brian.jpg

Most would take the abuse to make that kinda pay, but they don't have the talent to go with the willingness to be hurt.

[mraynrand]

Your scenario was meant to be realistic for a retired athlete? Come on!

Maybe, if they're lucky. Many of those guys live with a lot of pain.

[RashanGary]

Depending on the type of blue collar work, it can take far more out of you than even the longest, ironman NFL career.

Dick Buttkiss (picture that) played with bone on bone for years (picture that)

But really, he played bone on bone. So did Favre in his ankle. Graham is no where near that. He can push through hard for one more year and get closer to a HOF bid.

[pbmax]

Did he really say that? Because I know blue collar workers who would agree to getting beaten for 48 hours (1.5 hoursx16 games + 24 hours more for preseason and camp) instead of the grueling 2500 hours/year of their jobs. Heat, fumes, strain, stench. My dad worked at Trostel Tannery 16 hours a day over summers to pay for school. He'd take a pro athlete's life in exchange in a second and so would the guys who worked there every day.

"Oh, what I wouldn't give to be spat at in the face! Sometimes I hang awake at night, dreaming of being spat at in the face..."
http://newsite.annotatedmst.com/tinymce/plugins/moxiemanager/data/files/Mole%20People/life%20of%20brian.jpg

I paraphrased. He was talking about Dorsey Levens working out with other athletes (track guys). I added the bit about manual labor.

A tannery would qualify. Read about football production and it reminded me of some things I have read about working in a tannery. Rated one of the more hazardous jobs, if I recall correctly.

Cows for Goodell: https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/01/31/how-cow-becomes-football-horween-wilson

I'd take the pro athletes life if I could have a longish career or hit a big payday. Problem is, not completely under your control. Vanishingly small number of people are good enough. Which makes the comparison to manual labor even tougher.

[texaspackerbacker]

Maybe, if they're lucky. Many of those guys live with a lot of pain.

A few, I'd agree. "Many"? I doubt it, and dying young? only if they abuse chemicals or shit like that - or just get very unlucky.

[mraynrand]

A few, I'd agree. "Many"? I doubt it, and dying young? only if they abuse chemicals or shit like that - or just get very unlucky.

look it up. Or just watch those 70 year old former players stumble off the field when they return to Lambeau. You play football for 20 years, a lot of your joints are just wrecked. But those guys are really tough. Guys who played the game tend to hold out a lot longer than people in the general population before they get joint replacements.

[call_me_ishmael]

Tex you're being naive again. Listen to interviews with any former player, especially running backs, and they'll tell you how messed up their body is.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Silverstein was the first to throw a Dart at MattyFloor writing it was a mistake to sit Rodgers game 1

Post the fucking article, yo! Not all us make 6 figures and have disposable income to be a subscriber.

[texaspackerbacker]

look it up. Or just watch those 70 year old former players stumble off the field when they return to Lambeau. You play football for 20 years, a lot of your joints are just wrecked. But those guys are really tough. Guys who played the game tend to hold out a lot longer than people in the general population before they get joint replacements.

Rand, I'm just going by your probably facetious/definitely ridiculous earlier post - here it is:

"Rodger's back is just the sign of an aging man. When you get past you mid twenties, you realize that you don't completely recover the day after a strenuous workout - not enough to repeat it day after day. When you reach 30, your soreness lasts a day longer than it did 5 years ago. When you reach 40, you can't recall what you did that would make you sore. After a strenuous workout, you realize that a day off isn't really sufficient to recover. When you reach 50, your achilles goes out when you make a simple quick move tossing the football around in the back yard. When you reach 60, it takes half the day just to get your body loose enough to move. When you reach 70, those flowers next to the headstone smell nice - to the person who put them there."

Sure, some of those old guys stumble a bit - and a lot of them don't. Why would you think former players would "hold out a lot longer than people in the general population before they get joint replacements"? With very few exceptions, they have a ton of money - and I wouldn't be surprised if the team or the league still would pay for that sort of thing.

You're not totally wrong; You're just exaggerating things way the hell out of proportion - kinda like that "exceptional case" thing ya'all are so famous for in FYI.

And CMI, I don't suppose you would entertain the thought that the ones who don't have those messed up bodies aren't as likely to do interviews about it hahahahaha.

[mraynrand]

The older football guys hold out longer because they’re generally tougher and take more pain. It’s just an observation of most ortho surgeons I know.

Yeah the original post was tongue in cheek with a smattering of general truth.

The point being that your assertion of how Rodgers can run around like a second year running QB is absurd. You’re so concrete I should just flatly say stuff like that and then move on.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Depending on the type of blue collar work, it can take far more out of you than even the longest, ironman NFL career.

Shit, i've been working a lot of OTs lately. My legs are sore all over the place. And all that OTs for what? The capitalists milk me dry every day.

Anyone tried cryotherapy before?

Maybe it's time to quit the porn and take some English courses at the local community college. Become a lyricist/screenwriter. Or at least quit the porn and find a boring office job.

Anyone needs their books cooked? I've passed the CPA exams and would be happy to work for 15 bucks an hour, especially since I currently make the federal minimum wage flipping burgers.

[texaspackerbacker]

The older football guys hold out longer because they’re generally tougher and take more pain. It’s just an observation of most ortho surgeons I know.

Yeah the original post was tongue in cheek with a smattering of general truth.

The point being that your assertion of how Rodgers can run around like a second year running QB is absurd. You’re so concrete I should just flatly say stuff like that and then move on.

hahahahaha Yes you should - in all venues.

I don't want to see Rodgers taking hits either, but scrambling and throwing - which is a necessity almost all the time with this O Line, and occasionally taking off for 15 or 20 yards, then going out of bounds or sliding, that's not gonna get him hurt - and it is an integral factor in making the offense work.

[mraynrand]

hahahahaha Yes you should - in all venues.

I don't want to see Rodgers taking hits either, but scrambling and throwing - which is a necessity almost all the time with this O Line, and occasionally taking off for 15 or 20 yards, then going out of bounds or sliding, that's not gonna get him hurt - and it is an integral factor in making the offense work.

At least this take is much more sensible that your first.