2020 Wide Receivers

[Zool]

Kinda looks like the writing is on the wall that neither Rodgers or Adams will be here in two years. I'd imagine Gute will finally get aggressive all the sudden and bring in more receiver talent for his boy Love. That's kinda how I see it playing out.

He is hell bent on making this "His Team."

I was thinking 2 years is the plan for Rodgers too, assumin Love doesn’t look like hot garbage. Rodgers is a hell of a fall back plan if Love is Kizer 2.0. They have both under contract for 4 years so they might ride it out an extra year or 2 and see what happens. The rest of the roster might determine that.

[RashanGary]

I basically expect his ceiling is James Jones. Not based on year 1 but based on his skill set.

If we had Jennings or Finley, it would be more than enough.

Yeah, James Jonesish is kinda what I'm thinking is likely.

Let's cross our fingers for Stergburger. But shit, I see what you guys are saying, our best case scenario is what we need. And how likely is best case?

I guess we have a couple other long shots in EQ, Deguara, MVS and the Canadian kid. But collectively, I don't know if they sweeten the pot much, especially this year

[RashanGary]

I basically expect his ceiling is James Jones. Not based on year 1 but based on his skill set.

If we had Jennings or Finley, it would be more than enough.

But Lazard is like a physical carbon copy of Evans. Size, speed, jumps..... I think absolute max theoretic ceiling is mike Evans, but that's so unlikely. Poor man's Evans, to the James Jones level effectiveness is so much more likely.

If we just absolutely luck out like we did with Jennings, Jones, Cobb and Finley, back to back to back with these three young guys (sterg, deguara, Lazard) good things could happen . But I smell the doubt too. Its strong. And theyre young so even if it pans out, little late for 12

[RashanGary]

Adams
Jones
50/50 shot at Lazard being James Jones level
50/50 shot at sterg Beibg Finley

Flip a quarter two times. Might get two heads and 12 a ring

Then flip it two more times for health.

We're fucked. But I'm a gambler, so it's fun anyway

[RashanGary]

Then flip 2 more times for defensive health.

Odds of six heads in a row is 1.56, our super scientific chances of winning the SB.

12 should pull a Favre level fit to get out of dodge!

[GB-Brandon]

I was thinking 2 years is the plan for Rodgers too, assumin Love doesn’t look like hot garbage. Rodgers is a hell of a fall back plan if Love is Kizer 2.0. They have both under contract for 4 years so they might ride it out an extra year or 2 and see what happens. The rest of the roster might determine that.

This is where it gets a little fuzzy. If Gary doesn't get better and JL flames out then Gute could be shown the door. Gute put his career kinda on the JL pick with the way things are forming. Also, if this team starts to struggle this year and things heat up with Rodgers and LaFluer and resentments start to come out then Rodgers could demand his way out of here and were stuck with JL. It's easy for everyone to say the right things now in May but if "L's" start piling up and the pressure cooker starts getting hot etc etc things could get very fluid. This is where I would think Gute would at least "Clean Up The Mess" a little and make some type of move to give Rodgers some more comfort. Well see, I am really starting to believe my first thoughts might be becoming more true that Gute is gonna run this thing out the way it is. To me this is very very very High Stakes Gambling by Gute. He appears to be on a mission of some sort and well see where it ends up.

I wasn't gonna bring this up until later because I really don't like dumping so many negative opinions in one day but I mine as well because it ties to this. I've completed watching just about everything I can on Jordan Love and this pick scares the hell out of me. I really hope i'm wrong but some of things some scouts have said I completely confirm. He is big and athletic and has the arm with some ability to throw at some different launch points. He tends to be a streaker and he runs hot and cold. The biggest thing though that scares me about this guy is he is basically a "One Read QB." Yeah, there is some scramble stuff but when he throws from the pocket he doesn't appear to be able to process successfully past the first read. It's very obvious and that's why when he didn't have as good as talent around him last year and his main read couldn't win his interceptions went through the roof. He forces and forces and I don't believe he is anywhere near being able to process the field at the NFL level. This is probably at least a two year project and there is no guarantee it will ever work out. It's not like some mechanical thing that you can clean up. Lamar Jackson can get away with this because he is so fast he can tuck it an run for 40 yards down the field if his read isn't there. Love doesn't have that kind of speed. There is a lot of Kizer elements I see here and a lot of Blake Bortles too if he can't figure it out. Some do and some don't. I believe personally that it is a natural talent to some degree. If he can get it figured out we might have something but it's gonna be time and who knows. If he gets thrusted out there then it could fry him forever. Its really easy at the combine to look good making all the throws without having to make decisions reading defenses under pressure. He is great if he just has to stand there and some guy tells him to throw a certain route. I believe Gute got sold again on this massive upside kinda like Rashan Gary all over again.

So yeah there is a lot of moving parts to this whole thing. I'd love nothing more then Rodgers to somehow come out of this whole thing on top with the Packers and play here the rest of his career and win another Owl etc. Unfortunately I don't believe that is Gute's vision right now and I just sense an unwillingness to get Rodgers what he needs to get past this year with it being real positive. I think we might be in for a crazy ride this season but once again hoping for the best. They think they got the next Patrick Mahommes in Green and Gold. Lets see if there right.

[GB-Brandon]

So don't worry guys. We got "The Next Pattrick Mahomes" and "The Next Lawrence Taylor" they just do all there work from the bench.

[RashanGary]

You're making sense Brandon. I've watched Love games and see the one read a lot. Horrible oline in 2019 so some of that was necessity. I did see some second reads, looking guys off, etc.... So he showed in spurts of real NFL skillset even outside.ofnthe obvious physical talent.

Huge gamble on upside. Elite physical talent, and just enough sample of looking guys off, progressions and the ability to throw with velocity from a broken pocket and ability to throw on the run abd make plays off schedule. So everythibg. He's shown everythibg to see where the people who are high on him are really, really high.

Enough reason to doubt too. Enough reason to doubt.

I give him a 20% chance. Big gamble. Truely elite upside. Truly doubtful hell achieve it.

[RashanGary]

Throw from a clean pocket - check
Throw from a broken pocket - check
Scramble and make plays off schedule - check
Look guys off and make throw - check
Huge arm - check
Legs to scramble - check
Went through progressions and made plays wothint the play at times - check
Good dude - check

Literally everything is a check

Forced balls - yep
Got ball out to quick on one read - yep (but is that shaky OL confidence??)

Huge questions if he can't process through a whole play . Huge questions with the forced balls. Was that the team he was on. Those are warts that will doom him if they are him. Doom. There was just enough to think maybe tho

[texaspackerbacker]

I was thinking 2 years is the plan for Rodgers too, assumin Love doesn’t look like hot garbage. Rodgers is a hell of a fall back plan if Love is Kizer 2.0. They have both under contract for 4 years so they might ride it out an extra year or 2 and see what happens. The rest of the roster might determine that.

This may just be your best post ever.

RG, Gary at this point is frosting on the cake if he performs like you think (and I wouldn't rule that out). Regardless, we have the Smiths, and thus, we will have high quality edge rusher play if they stay healthy. I don't see Lazard as much like James Jones at all. I can't recall any similar Packer in recent history like him. Maybe go all the way back to Boyd Dowler in the Lombardi years. There have been a lot of big targets with fair speed and good ability to catch the ball on other teams, though, that he reminds me of. I'd be overselling the product if I said Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. I dug up an article of somebody's idea of the 25 best WRs all time, and it was surprising how few big guys were on that list. Art Monk and Andre Reed were the only two I would cite as maybe similar to a best case result for Lazard. With Rodgers throwing, though, I would say there is way better than a coin flip/50/50 chance of Lazard being better than James Jones. I can't say the same or even close, though, for Sternberger.

[Massive J]

[QUOTE=RashanGary;1062021]Don't bet against this guy, Brandon. #2 WR if i ever saw one.

This guy was gonna be one too someday. Still waiting.


https://youtu.be/DT47wkQyET0

I've been around too long. I don't get excited about these "K-Mart Red Light Special Pipe Dreams" anymore. Someone needs to tell Gute to go get some "Real Nike's." Tired of the fake shit.
No one EVER thought Janis would be even a #2. We all PRAYED he would. But the world knew he didn`t have the brains.

[GB-Brandon]

Throw from a clean pocket - check
Throw from a broken pocket - check
Scramble and make plays off schedule - check
Look guys off and make throw - check
Huge arm - check
Legs to scramble - check
Went through progressions and made plays wothint the play at times - check
Good dude - check

Literally everything is a check

Forced balls - yep
Got ball out to quick on one read - yep (but is that shaky OL confidence??)

Huge questions if he can't process through a whole play . Huge questions with the forced balls. Was that the team he was on. Those are warts that will doom him if they are him. Doom. There was just enough to think maybe tho

The processing thing at NFL speeds is my major concern. I don't believe he is even close. I don't see a natural feel there. Your kinda buying his one season. I see a guy that gets by on arm talent and a little movement in the Mountain West Conference that played like crap most of the season. That's not enough to get it done in the NFL. I don't see the Pattrick Mahommes thing. A few Pattrick Mahommes type plays don't make me go "Pattrick Mahommes". In fact this Mahommes thing is reach to me. Mahommes lit it up at Texas Tech and got better every year. It's not really even close if you look at sheer numbers or tape.

As far as "shaky OL confidence" whats he gonna do when he has two NFL talented edge rushers coming at him and beastly 300 pound NFL talent pushing his pocket a little? He is gonna have to learn how to slide around in there and step up while processing the whole field at NFL speed. It's a giant leap for him from what he shows on tape against soft competition. They prepped Brett Hundley for a year before he had to go in there and he bombed. Kizer has similar talent as Love and they couldn't fix his ass. This is a scratch off lottery ticket and for Gute to do this is just trash. He wants to make this big gamble so he can possibly look like some fucken genius. It was a power move. THIS WAS NOT PLAYING IT SAFE! And people that say "Well it was just a draft pick and we don't know if they got a receiver or LB even if that player would of been any good either." That's bullshit! We needed to take chances getting better now. I believe we had a chance.

I actually feel bad for Jordan Love. He is gonna get thrown into this thing and if he figures it out and becomes this BDP then hey more power to him. If he can take all the pressure that is gonna be there day 1 that just escalates and study hundreds and hundreds of hours of film and be a student and live this shit like Aaron Rodgers does then we shall see. He couldn't figure it out in college. He got in some trouble before his big bowl game where he flopped. Does he have the discipline and is he mentally strong enough? Lot's of question marks here.

To me this was two years to early and it was nothing more then Gute chasing Unicorns again and basically trying to stamp his name on this organization while he takes the wind out of sales of the "Aaron Rodgers Era." These things very rarely work out well and that's a fact.

[RashanGary]

Brandon, I'm pretty much with ya. Huge risk. Hugely different game at Utah State vs NFL. More to process. So many fail. And he showed some trouble spots that indicate possible failure. I doubt every rookie QB. I doubt Burrow.

Can't say I blame gute for shooting his shot though. He moved up to get love. This was not forced. He chose it.

If I was GM, I wouldn't just sit and try to win with Rodgers like he was my golden ticket. I'd have confidence in my abilities and I'd go all out with it.

So I respect what gute did and I want to see him succeed the same way I wanted to see Thompson succeed after Favre.

The Packers staff, starting with Wolf, has had some good luck with QBs. Most likely HOFers picked by Wolf deciples include: Favre (wolf), Rodgers (Thompson), Wilson (Schneider), Mahomes (Dorsey). Good QBs include: Hasselback (wolf), Carr (McKenzie) and Mayfield (Dorsey) and there is reason to believe that number could be higher if the above listed GMs needed a QB and continued to take them high. Wolf deciples have excellent QB play, all of them other than Thompson did it without Rodgers. And thompson didn't accidently draft Rodgers either. Rodgers isn't a unicorn.

Gute might be the next wolf deciple to be added to the above list. Love (gutekunst) Hall of Fame. Maybe they know something you don't.

[RashanGary]

Thompson once said, when an NFL player leaves a team it's like taking your hands out of a bucket of water. The water is still there and you aren't . Nobody is irreplaceable is what he was saying. That's what he found out. And he was man enough to make a life after. It's not personal. Rodgers is gonna have to be a big boy here. And I'm a big Rodgers fan.

[pbmax]

Thompson once said, when an NFL player leaves a team it's like taking your hands out of a bucket of water. The water is still there and you aren't . Nobody is irreplaceable is what he was saying. That's what he found out. And he was man enough to make a life after. It's not personal. Rodgers is gonna have to be a big boy here. And I'm a big Rodgers fan.

Ted was wrong about that when it comes to the better players. If you are a backup ILB and special teamer, then yes, the bucket of water wins.

Love could be a one read guy, but that critique doesn't bother me. Offenses in college tend to be one read. And one read doesn't mean they aren't doing a pre snap read of the defense.

The Flowers offense is built off a pre-snap read then (normally) one read. He'll be OK in the basic offense and then might need to develop more. Same as with most QBs coming out. If he was this size and speed, ran a pro offense and did not throw picks, he would have been the #1 pick.

[GB-Brandon]

Thompson once said, when an NFL player leaves a team it's like taking your hands out of a bucket of water. The water is still there and you aren't . Nobody is irreplaceable is what he was saying. That's what he found out. And he was man enough to make a life after. It's not personal. Rodgers is gonna have to be a big boy here. And I'm a big Rodgers fan.

I fully expect him to get his 34 million dollars and try to say all the right things as much as he can this season. My OP in regards to this was a response to the Rodgers and Adams timeline. I just see some people and not just on here go this route where they think Rodgers is going to be here for awhile and I laugh. It's total denial and it's kinda like the "I want my cake and eat it too" saying. If I was betting on the timeline I believe this will Be Aaron Rodgers last season here in Green Bay with the only chance of him staying is if they win a Super Bowl.

If we "Must respect Gute's decision" as you say then we certainly "Must respect Rodgers decision" as well. After all it was Gute's decision that will ultimately serve as the catalyst moving forward. Aaron Rodgers wants to win as badly as anyone and he is smart enough to know that it probably isn't gonna happen in Green Bay(at least not a world championship). So he gets his $ and does the best he can do to stay healthy without making a bunch of forced throws with receivers he doesn't really trust to begin with while biting his tongue all season. He might even give a few "atta boy's" to Jordan Love. Then after a so and so season he asks to be traded which the Packers could conceivably do with some help from Rodgers which I believe is what Gute really wants anyways.

Then all the sudden this big pick that some think is so cool becomes very real. Maybe this is why they are rushing and making it a priority to acquire the nuts and bolts of this new scheme. They know its coming. There not stupid in the sense that they know they haven't gotten Rodgers what he needs to be Super Successful. All they really did is plug a few holes with some cheap injury prone players on which are basically one year contracts while they use there premium resources on there new plan. I'm sure there will be some more roster shifting next year and an attempt to help JL out more if this becomes the "here and now." Sure, the LaFluer offense might be more friendly to Love's limited in game processing reads and abilities but its still a massive jump. Well find out but I could see how this is the move that takes the Packers back to NFL Purgatory and rather quickly at that. I wouldn't be putting any heavy ching ching on the Packers to win and that's for sure.

[RashanGary]

Rodgers saw Favre get petty . Now he understands why. Now that he's in it, he understands why Favre was upset

But Rodgers was on the other side of the equation, 15 years ago. So he understands why people think big picture too.

Rodgers is uniquely qualified to handle this well, to see it from multIlle viewpoints and not get lost in his disappointmwnt turned anger

[GB-Brandon]

Rodgers saw Favre get petty . Now he understands why. Now that he's in it, he understands why Favre was upset

But Rodgers was on the other side of the equation, 15 years ago. So he understands why people think big picture too.

Rodgers is uniquely qualified to handle this well, to see it from multIlle viewpoints and not get lost in his disappointmwnt turned anger

Yes and Favre did not end his career in Green Bay and very few others in similar situations have with there respective teams over the years in the NFL. Your putting this "All on Rodgers" when its really "All on Gute". Rodgers even back tracked in his first interview about "Retiring as a Packer' and furthermore saying "Things are beyond his control" and this is just what he is "Saying" to the media.

If you don't think at some level that the wheels are not turning in Rodgers head about putting himself in a better position to win now then you live in a Fantasy Land that i can't help you get out of.

Sometimes "Handling it Well" = "Getting the Hell out of Dodge"

[pbmax]

Rodgers saw Favre get petty . Now he understands why. Now that he's in it, he understands why Favre was upset

But Rodgers was on the other side of the equation, 15 years ago. So he understands why people think big picture too.

Rodgers is uniquely qualified to handle this well, to see it from multIlle viewpoints and not get lost in his disappointmwnt turned anger

Rodgers is also smart enough to know his career, if he is healthy, is not going to end in Green Bay. He said exactly this in his PC.

And no one is contradicting him.

[texaspackerbacker]

The shit just keeps getting deeper and deeper in here. By far the most obvious thing is that Rodgers plays all four remaining years of his contract and excels - as always - doing so. Then after the four years, the Packers find themselves with the same tough decision they had with Favre and Rodgers. Maybe they were stupid in drafting Love; Maybe they just genuinely think lightning can strike twice. Anyway, all this talk about Rodgers leaving one way or the other sooner is idiotic. If he's playing super, why would he be dumped in a trade? If he's diminished, then we likely couldn't get a huge amount in a trade anyway, so why bother?

My guess is that at the end of the four years, we re-up Rodgers for a couple more years and pay a fairly significant amount to retain Love also, assuming he has developed the way it seems he is capable of by watching the GOAT. All it would take is sacrificing one mid-level player at some other position to do that.

[GB-Brandon]

The shit just keeps getting deeper and deeper in here. By far the most obvious thing is that Rodgers plays all four remaining years of his contract and excels - as always - doing so. Then after the four years, the Packers find themselves with the same tough decision they had with Favre and Rodgers. Maybe they were stupid in drafting Love; Maybe they just genuinely think lightning can strike twice. Anyway, all this talk about Rodgers leaving one way or the other sooner is idiotic. If he's playing super, why would he be dumped in a trade? If he's diminished, then we likely couldn't get a huge amount in a trade anyway, so why bother?

My guess is that at the end of the four years, we re-up Rodgers for a couple more years and pay a fairly significant amount to retain Love also, assuming he has developed the way it seems he is capable of by watching the GOAT. All it would take is sacrificing one mid-level player at some other position to do that.

And from you I would expect nothing less then this “Fairy Tale Ending.”

Obviously this would be amazing but everything would have to go just right for it too happen.

Anything is possible. Jordan Love could suffer a catastrophic injury in camp or Rodgers could suffer one in a game. Rodgers could go off this year like he did during “Run The Table” and win the whole thing. Yes, these things could happen but if your looking through a “Clear Lens” I think it’s pretty easy to see that the probabilities are greater that Rodgers career in Green Bay will be over sooner rather then later.

[texaspackerbacker]

That's not a "fairy tale ending". It's just the continuation of a trend - either the same level of excellence we have always seen or maybe a very slight downturn with age. Why would anybody, even you, Brandon, expect Rodgers not to play at top level at least as long as Brady, longer than Brees? And Brady just got noticeably worse the last season or so, arguably because he had less talent around him - something that has been Rodgers' life story.

[GB-Brandon]

So getting back to the topic of "The State Of The Wide Receiver Position" which directly affects all this and this season which i believe will paint the picture for the following years to come in regards to Aaron Rodgers. This whole thing is at a giant crossroad and has really become a "Year to Year Decision" at this point. I've heard some Packer Podcast Pundits(Not Gonna Name Names) talking about "How the receiver position isn't all that important" for the Packers and it's just a bunch of BULLSHIT!

Are we building a team to beat our fucken defense? Just because the Packers run some Mickey Mouse Scheme doesn't mean the rest of the league does. Talk about ignorance. Yeah, the Niners slapped there dirty parts all over the Packers faces and now we wanna do it. Give me a break. There are teams that can and will stop the run. Were not building the Baltimore Ravens and Lamar Jackson here. At some point some of our guys(other then Adams) are gonna have to win consistently for the Packers to have a chance. There is no two ways about it.

So with this being the case if these 60-1 longs shots don't work out then essentially Gute is just throwing salt in the wound of AR12. This will not be a pretty site if this becomes the case. You can take that to the bank.

[GB-Brandon]

That's not a "fairy tale ending". It's just the continuation of a trend - either the same level of excellence we have always seen or maybe a very slight downturn with age. Why would anybody, even you, Brandon, expect Rodgers not to play at top level at least as long as Brady, longer than Brees? And Brady just got noticeably worse the last season or so, arguably because he had less talent around him - something that has been Rodgers' life story.

I am going with what Aaron Rodgers has said which is "This Is A Situation Beyond My Control" which is the truth all the way around. He has ultimate urgency to win now. I expect him to pivot in whatever direction he needs too that puts him in the best situation to do that whether its the Packers or someone else at this point.

If He can get an opportunity to have a situation with weapons all around him and a serviceable defense with the right offensive mind he would bolt in a hear beat IMO. The Packers aren't winning this thing in the "Loyalty Department". In fact, there being kinda assholes about it.

[GB-Brandon]

This isn't a situation where Rodgers has been threatening to retire every off season or whining that he needs more money. He has never been in any trouble. The guy talks about playing into his 40's and is always trying to get better. He does everything he can to take care of his body.

This is what I said it was which is an Egomaniac(Gute) making some huge power play so he can look like some Genius at the cost of a Super Bowl Run. He used a 1st and a 4th round pick to buy which is probably a bag of fucken rocks after he wasted the 12th pick of draft buying a bag of rocks last year. Rodgers should be furious and I give him credit for handling it well as he does.

[texaspackerbacker]

I am going with what Aaron Rodgers has said which is "This Is A Situation Beyond My Control" which is the truth all the way around. He has ultimate urgency to win now. I expect him to pivot in whatever direction he needs too that puts him in the best situation to do that whether its the Packers or someone else at this point.

If He can get an opportunity to have a situation with weapons all around him and a serviceable defense with the right offensive mind he would bolt in a hear beat IMO. The Packers aren't winning this thing in the "Loyalty Department". In fact, there being kinda assholes about it.

Well yeah, he undoubtedly does see "ultimate urgency" to winning now, and yeah, the latest draft and a helluva lot that has been done earlier haven't made his job any easier. Where I differ from you, though, Brandon, is I expect him to pull it off. Why? Because he has generally been winning under those moderately adverse conditions pretty much forever (thanks, Ted).

There's a lot of whining in here that we have only won one Super Bowl with Rodgers as QB. The other side of that coin, though, is that unlike some feast or famine teams (a situation which I would absolutely hate for the Packers to be), the Packers have been consistently very near the top. While I'd love for us to win it all, I'm very pleased that my team has been so good for so long.

Hopefully the philosophy driving our team will continue to be that same "winning is normalcy" thing.

[GB-Brandon]

Well yeah, he undoubtedly does see "ultimate urgency" to winning now, and yeah, the latest draft and a helluva lot that has been done earlier haven't made his job any easier. Where I differ from you, though, Brandon, is I expect him to pull it off. Why? Because he has generally been winning under those moderately adverse conditions pretty much forever (thanks, Ted).

There's a lot of whining in here that we have only won one Super Bowl with Rodgers as QB. The other side of that coin, though, is that unlike some feast or famine teams (a situation which I would absolutely hate for the Packers to be), the Packers have been consistently very near the top. While I'd love for us to win it all, I'm very pleased that my team has been so good for so long.

Hopefully the philosophy driving our team will continue to be that same "winning is normalcy" thing.

Well to me it seems like an attempt to take 2 steps back in an attempt to then eventually take 3 forward. Once again I think this equation has more to do with Jordan Love succeeding then Aaron Rodgers. You and I can want Rodgers in Green and Gold all we want and Rodgers can as well for that matter. If Gute isn’t on that train(which I believe he isn’t) then Rodgers days in GB are numbered.

Once again I follow the moves and what people do. Not necessarily what they say and Gute has done next to zero to improve the offensive firepower other then furthering the development of LaFleurs power run scheme which actually patterns to what Jordan Love has a chance to do for a lot less $.

Whether it works or not and Green Bay maintains its “Winning Ways” is another whole discussion.

[Joemailman]

The shit just keeps getting deeper and deeper in here. By far the most obvious thing is that Rodgers plays all four remaining years of his contract and excels - as always - doing so. Then after the four years, the Packers find themselves with the same tough decision they had with Favre and Rodgers. Maybe they were stupid in drafting Love; Maybe they just genuinely think lightning can strike twice. Anyway, all this talk about Rodgers leaving one way or the other sooner is idiotic. If he's playing super, why would he be dumped in a trade? If he's diminished, then we likely couldn't get a huge amount in a trade anyway, so why bother?

My guess is that at the end of the four years, we re-up Rodgers for a couple more years and pay a fairly significant amount to retain Love also, assuming he has developed the way it seems he is capable of by watching the GOAT. All it would take is sacrificing one mid-level player at some other position to do that.

There is no way in hell Jordan Love is going to want to sit and watch Aaron Rodgers for 6 years, unless it becomes obvious he is not starter material. My guess is that following the 2021 season the Packers will decide whether Aaron Rodgers or Jordan Love gives then the best chance at winning a Superb Owl and keep that guy.

[RashanGary]

There is no way in hell Jordan Love is going to want to sit and watch Aaron Rodgers for 6 years, unless it becomes obvious he is not starter material. My guess is that following the 2021 season the Packers will decide whether Aaron Rodgers or Jordan Love gives then the best chance at winning a Superb Owl and keep that guy.

IF love shows he's the real deal, a trade after the 2021 season is very possible. Whoever gets Rodgers would have a 2 year contract 25M per season. Very friendly for what I expect him to be at ages 38 and 39. Could even get a first round pick from a team thats a QB away.

[texaspackerbacker]

That "an attempt to take 2 steps back in an attempt to then eventually take 3 forward" is exactly what the Packers haven't done in at least 3 decades and what I would absolutely HATE for them to do. That's the "feast or famine" thing I mentioned in the other post. Spare us from that shit!

The Packers have remained near the top all through both the Favre and Rodgers years. Arguably, the supporting cast now is better than it has been through most of those years. I will Gutekunst credit for being better than Ted in that respect even though I don't like the recent draft. That is what maybe is relevant to this WR thread.

You're wrong, therefore. This discussion is more about Rodgers than Love, because it has to do with maintaining that "Winning Way" - which to most people is the most important thing - Win Now! ...... and then next year, Win Now again, and the year after that, Win Now again - do you see a trend there?

[RashanGary]

Next year is a huge Window year for Rodgers in Green Bay. Our most likely year at a SB in my opinion.

Should be able to keep the whole band together. Maybe Lindsley is replaced by Patrick and company, which to me is fine....

Adams Jones Lazard Sternberger in their primes. Maybe EQ too and the one trick pony MVS.

Dillon and Deguara at ages and stages to help

Veteran defense that's played together....

That's the big year in my opinion. This year there's a chance too!

Rodgers is going to make it really tough. He's gonna be the best 36 and 37 year old.QB to ever play I bet.

[texaspackerbacker]

IF love shows he's the real deal, a trade after the 2021 season is very possible. Whoever gets Rodgers would have a 2 year contract 25M per season. Very friendly for what I expect him to be at ages 38 and 39. Could even get a first round pick from a team thats a QB away.

That is exactly the same logic that says keep him. 3 first round picks or maybe 2 plus a 2nd, and maybe I'd consider a trade at that time hahahahaha. That's not likely, and anything less, forget it.

[texaspackerbacker]

There is no way in hell Jordan Love is going to want to sit and watch Aaron Rodgers for 6 years, unless it becomes obvious he is not starter material. My guess is that following the 2021 season the Packers will decide whether Aaron Rodgers or Jordan Love gives then the best chance at winning a Superb Owl and keep that guy.

You might be right, although pay him decently beyond his first four years and maybe. If he absolutely prices himself out of the market, I suppose let him go and hope he fails somewhere. If the kid is smart, though, he might see a better future with the Packers by waiting those 6 years. Or maybe it would become obvious after two or three years that he intends to leave. In that case, hopefully we could get more for him than the first rounder we invested in him.

You may very well be correct in your last line, but I'd say it will be pretty obvious that decision would be that Rodgers even 2 years farther down the road gives the Packers a better chance.

[RashanGary]

Favre was better than Rodgers in 2008 and 2009. The 2010 season Rodgers became elite. Comparable and a little better than Favre in his prime.

Love has a lot to prove. Gonna be hard for him to pass Rodgers, but if he shows he's a great player, the youth makes Love more valuable long term and you'd cut ties with Rodgers. Love has to show that though, first, otherwise you ride out Rodgers contract.

[GB-Brandon]

That "an attempt to take 2 steps back in an attempt to then eventually take 3 forward" is exactly what the Packers haven't done in at least 3 decades and what I would absolutely HATE for them to do. That's the "feast or famine" thing I mentioned in the other post. Spare us from that shit!

The Packers have remained near the top all through both the Favre and Rodgers years. Arguably, the supporting cast now is better than it has been through most of those years. I will Gutekunst credit for being better than Ted in that respect even though I don't like the recent draft. That is what maybe is relevant to this WR thread.

You're wrong, therefore. This discussion is more about Rodgers than Love, because it has to do with maintaining that "Winning Way" - which to most people is the most important thing - Win Now! ...... and then next year, Win Now again, and the year after that, Win Now again - do you see a trend there?

The trend I see is you have a HOF QB that is nearing 40 and you have to make the most out of the current situation. The Packers “Actions” did the exact opposite and it had nothing to do with strapping the cap as Gute has already done that. It has to do with drafting players that you can win with Rodgers NOW!

This is not what the Packers did. They put there eggs in a different basket. You can spin it all day long but once again I’m following their “actions.” I totally get that some fans can’t do anything but “follow their heart”

As far as receivers the Packers current group is rated 27th in PFF so I wouldn’t call that “One of the best supporting casts over the last 30 years” as far as that group goes.

[GB-Brandon]

That is exactly the same logic that says keep him. 3 first round picks or maybe 2 plus a 2nd, and maybe I'd consider a trade at that time hahahahaha. That's not likely, and anything less, forget it.

i hope you have a safety plan in play.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Favre was better than Rodgers in 2008 and 2009. The 2010 season Rodgers became elite. Comparable and a little better than Favre in his prime.

Not sure about this. 28 TDs/11 ints for Rodgers was better than Favre in most recent years (except 2007). By 2009 he was as good or better than old Favre (30 TDs/7 ints)—especially near the end of the year and playoff time. Peak Rodgers ran from late 2009 to around 2014.

[RashanGary]

Not sure about this. 28 TDs/11 ints for Rodgers was better than Favre in most recent years (except 2007). By 2009 he was as good or better than old Favre (30 TDs/7 ints)—especially near the end of the year and playoff time. Peak Rodgers ran from late 2009 to around 2014.

Yeah, late 09 was probably better. But I could feel the drop when Favre left. The sacks. The slow tempo, the losses. Rodgers got it together though. Probably would have been better sooner if he started his third season

[GB-Brandon]

There is no way in hell Jordan Love is going to want to sit and watch Aaron Rodgers for 6 years, unless it becomes obvious he is not starter material. My guess is that following the 2021 season the Packers will decide whether Aaron Rodgers or Jordan Love gives then the best chance at winning a Superb Owl and keep that guy.

To even try to play this thing out “6 years” is just Insane.

Like i posted earlier, with so many moving parts I believe in this era of the NFL it’s a year to year decision of what direction things go.

[RashanGary]

Brady's most prolific years, the Moss years, he never won a SB

[GB-Brandon]

Brady's most prolific years, the Moss years, he never won a SB

That’s fine. They were on the verge of completing historical greatness. They fell a little short. I think anybody here would take a shot at that.

[texaspackerbacker]

The trend I see is you have a HOF QB that is nearing 40 and you have to make the most out of the current situation. The Packers “Actions” did the exact opposite and it had nothing to do with strapping the cap as Gute has already done that. It has to do with drafting players that you can win with Rodgers NOW!

This is not what the Packers did. They put there eggs in a different basket. You can spin it all day long but once again I’m following their “actions.” I totally get that some fans can’t do anything but “follow their heart”

As far as receivers the Packers current group is rated 27th in PFF so I wouldn’t call that “One of the best supporting casts over the last 30 years” as far as that group goes.

It's hard to dispute what you say that Packer actions on draft day said something other than "Win Now". I was speaking of 2 or 3 or 4 years from now - saying "Win Now" then - or for that matter, never saying otherwise. As I have said, that feast or famine rebuilding shit is just plain stupid.

What I will say for now, though, is that apparently the powers that be in Titletown think we can Win Now this season - without going all in on draft day. And after 13-3 and probably a little bit of improvement, I sure wouldn't bet against it.

[pbmax]

That "an attempt to take 2 steps back in an attempt to then eventually take 3 forward" is exactly what the Packers haven't done in at least 3 decades and what I would absolutely HATE for them to do. That's the "feast or famine" thing I mentioned in the other post. Spare us from that shit!

The Packers have remained near the top all through both the Favre and Rodgers years. Arguably, the supporting cast now is better than it has been through most of those years. I will Gutekunst credit for being better than Ted in that respect even though I don't like the recent draft. That is what maybe is relevant to this WR thread.

You're wrong, therefore. This discussion is more about Rodgers than Love, because it has to do with maintaining that "Winning Way" - which to most people is the most important thing - Win Now! ...... and then next year, Win Now again, and the year after that, Win Now again - do you see a trend there?

C'mon. What was the team record in 2008?

Answer: 6 - 10.

What was the team record of the 2006 Ted rebuilt team with Favre operating under a first year head coach?

Answer: 8 - 8

What was the team record in 2005 when Ted rebuilt the depth of the team and the salary cap?

Answer: 4 - 12

We could all find out that 13-3 was the 2007 of this era of Packer football.

But any replacement scenario means that Love must show them he can start. I actually doubt people on the team knew Rodgers would be this good, but he clearly did things in practice that we didn't know about. It will be interesting.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'd never defend Ted Thompson about anything - other than blundering into picking Aaron Rodgers, of course. At least one or more of those bad seasons were due to Rodgers being hurt, of course. You know what I mean when I'm talking about "feast or famine" - the Giants, Houston, Miami, I think, and several others, the Niners were also that way at one point, probably others. I hate that, and I want no part of it for my team.

[pbmax]

I'd never defend Ted Thompson about anything - other than blundering into picking Aaron Rodgers, of course. At least one or more of those bad seasons were due to Rodgers being hurt, of course. You know what I mean when I'm talking about "feast or famine" - the Giants, Houston, Miami, I think, and several others, the Niners were also that way at one point, probably others. I hate that, and I want no part of it for my team.


That "an attempt to take 2 steps back in an attempt to then eventually take 3 forward" is exactly what the Packers haven't done in at least 3 decades and what I would absolutely HATE for them to do. That's the "feast or famine" thing I mentioned in the other post. Spare us from that shit!


I don't know how to reconcile these two posts.

Unless you are saying the Ted Thompson years don't count out of the last 30.

[texaspackerbacker]

When did I ever say anything positive about Ted Thompson? He absolutely did not maximize the Aaron Rodgers years. He did not, however, consciously tear down the team - trading top players for draft picks, etc. Thus, except for those injury-fucked seasons, the Packers were always close.

[pbmax]

When did I ever say anything positive about Ted Thompson? He absolutely did not maximize the Aaron Rodgers years. He did not, however, consciously tear down the team - trading top players for draft picks, etc. Thus, except for those injury-fucked seasons, the Packers were always close.

Didn't he trade Favre?

[ThunderDan]

When did I ever say anything positive about Ted Thompson? He absolutely did not maximize the Aaron Rodgers years. He did not, however, consciously tear down the team - trading top players for draft picks, etc. Thus, except for those injury-fucked seasons, the Packers were always close.

So he did exactly what you wanted to keep the Packers a winning franchise and you can’t find anything positive to say about him.

[sharpe1027]

This is not what the Packers did. They put there eggs in a different basket. You can spin it all day long but once again I’m following their “actions.” I totally get that some fans can’t do anything but “follow their heart”



Honest question. Do you have any idea how condescending you sound?

[texaspackerbacker]

So he did exactly what you wanted to keep the Packers a winning franchise and you can’t find anything positive to say about him.

I'll try to answer two posts with one. pbmax, obviously the Favre trade was something else entirely. The Packers were in the same position they may be in four years from now. No good choice, but the lesser evil.

ThunderDan, you have a point there, and I will give him some credit for that. However, his hatred for grabbing free agents from other teams was terrible. Based on last season anyway, Gutekunst is a breath of fresh air in that.

[bobblehead]

Don't bet against this guy, Brandon. #2 WR if i ever saw one.


https://youtu.be/JvMM16OAtp0
Wow, its almost like, between this video and Brandon's video of the chiefs that if you pick highlights everyone looks awesome!!

[bobblehead]

There is a reason he didn't get drafted

Don't get me wrong, I love the Lizard. But he is what he is.....solid 4 maybe a 3

Put him against starters every week and he's not an impact starter

I want him to be our 5 talent wise. But he's not. He might be our 2

Why did Tom Brady get drafted in the 6th? Why was James Harrison undrafted? Why was Tony Romo undrafted? Asking for a friend.

[bobblehead]

So don't worry guys. We got "The Next Pattrick Mahomes" and "The Next Lawrence Taylor" they just do all there work from the bench.

Lets stay on topic. This thread is about WRs.

[texaspackerbacker]

Why did Tom Brady get drafted in the 6th? Why was James Harrison undrafted? Why was Tony Romo undrafted? Asking for a friend.


Because drafting is an inexact science hahahahaha.

[sharpe1027]

I'll try to answer two posts with one. pbmax, obviously the Favre trade was something else entirely. The Packers were in the same position they may be in four years from now. No good choice, but the lesser evil.

ThunderDan, you have a point there, and I will give him some credit for that. However, his hatred for grabbing free agents from other teams was terrible. Based on last season anyway, Gutekunst is a breath of fresh air in that.

He did spend money on FA guys like Woodson, Pickett, Chillar, Saturday, Peppers, Cook, and Bennett.

[GB-Brandon]

It's hard to dispute what you say that Packer actions on draft day said something other than "Win Now". I was speaking of 2 or 3 or 4 years from now - saying "Win Now" then - or for that matter, never saying otherwise. As I have said, that feast or famine rebuilding shit is just plain stupid.

What I will say for now, though, is that apparently the powers that be in Titletown think we can Win Now this season - without going all in on draft day. And after 13-3 and probably a little bit of improvement, I sure wouldn't bet against it.

I never said anything about “Betting against the Packers.” If there are games or lines that don’t look good the practice is to stay away from that bet all together.

[texaspackerbacker]

You're not seriously gonna praise Ted Thompson on free agent signings, are you, Sharpe?

In all his years ....... put 'em all together, and those guys don't amount to Smith, Smith, Amos, and Turner in one season. The only two that really stand out for Ted were over age guys he got lucky with.

[texaspackerbacker]

I never said anything about “Betting against the Packers.” If there are games or lines that don’t look good the practice is to stay away from that bet all together.

I guess we'll see where you stand when the annual prediction of record thread comes out hahahahahaha.

[GB-Brandon]

Wow, its almost like, between this video and Brandon's video of the chiefs that if you pick highlights everyone looks awesome!!

Except Lazard’s highlight video is only a minute long and revolves around basically 3 catches.

“JAG”

[GB-Brandon]

I guess we'll see where you stand when the annual prediction of record thread comes out hahahahahaha.

I don’t score it that way. “My System” works a bit different. I don’t go game for game individually. I calculate more on a “Macro Level” to with tons of information to give me “Micro Level” results.

I will release this but not yet. Still gathering more information and waiting for more potential additions.

[GB-Brandon]

Honest question. Do you have any idea how condescending you sound?

I probably need to pick and choose what I reply to more carefully.

[woodbuck27]

Has there been a CFL receiver that has ever gone on to do well in the NFL? Just curious.
I am absolutely stunned and deeply concerned that they didn't draft a single WR in what was widely considered (if not by Gute) to be a historically good draft for WR. The WR group they had last season weren't exactly keeping DC's up at night working out special coverages.

Maybe the plan is to copy SF by running the ball so much they only ask Rodgers to throw 8 passes a game. Drafting a RB, H-Back and 3 OL would certainly point to a commitment to the running game like few I've seen.

Have you forgotten Swervin' Mervyn Hernandez of the Oakland Raiders?

[woodbuck27]

I don’t score it that way. “My System” works a bit different. I don’t go game for game individually. I calculate more on a “Macro Level” to with tons of information to give me “Micro Level” results.

I will release this but not yet. Still gathering more information and waiting for more potential additions.

Interesting and good luck Cha Cha Cha !

[woodbuck27]

Favre was better than Rodgers in 2008 and 2009. The 2010 season Rodgers became elite. Comparable and a little better than Favre in his prime.

Love has a lot to prove. Gonna be hard for him to pass Rodgers, but if he shows he's a great player, the youth makes Love more valuable long term and you'd cut ties with Rodgers. Love has to show that though, first, otherwise you ride out Rodgers contract.

Back to back to back HOF QB'S. A big reach to expect that.

Aaron Rodgers plays out his contract.

[woodbuck27]

I probably need to pick and choose what I reply to more carefully.


This is PACKERRATS; fill your boots.

[texaspackerbacker]

I don’t score it that way. “My System” works a bit different. I don’t go game for game individually. I calculate more on a “Macro Level” to with tons of information to give me “Micro Level” results.

I will release this but not yet. Still gathering more information and waiting for more potential additions.

I didn't mean the game by game prediction contest. I meant the Packer record for the season thread.

[GB-Brandon]

I didn't mean the game by game prediction contest. I meant the Packer record for the season thread.

Well since your trying to “High Pressure” me for some type of prediction right now I’m at 9-7(thats right now) as my starting point based on internal moves additions/subtractions and early schedule review.

Vegas is at 9.5. This could change but I will need to see much more like i posted.

[texaspackerbacker]

hahahahaha "high pressure" wasn't my intention. "I wouldn't bet against it" was just a figure of speech. 9-7 sounds about like what I'd expect from you. I guess I'm at a 13-3 repeat right now, but that's not firm until the prediction thread.

What do you mean by the 9.5? It sounds like you're talking about odds, but odds of what? Are you saying "Vegas" somehow predicts 9 and a half wins? I'd bet against that coming true, precisely anyway hahahaha. Is it an "over/under"?

[Bretsky]

I've come to believe Gutebag and Flowerboy have come to the conclusion that AROD is deteriorating as a prime time player; that is part of why they are going to try to redefine his role as a game manager. So who needs WR"s ? We're going to run and run and run to be successful. So we stack the RB talent and hope to hell the OL can block well enough to do so. And with Rodgers play apparently getting worse, they have punched his ticket out of her before AROD will want to stop playing. It's going to be an interesting ride

[Bretsky]

hahahahaha "high pressure" wasn't my intention. "I wouldn't bet against it" was just a figure of speech. 9-7 sounds about like what I'd expect from you. I guess I'm at a 13-3 repeat right now, but that's not firm until the prediction thread.

What do you mean by the 9.5? It sounds like you're talking about odds, but odds of what? Are you saying "Vegas" somehow predicts 9 and a half wins? I'd bet against that coming true, precisely anyway hahahaha.



The over/under in VEGAS was 9.5 wins Tex; so go bet some serious buckswanas on more if you want

[texaspackerbacker]

The over/under in VEGAS was 9.5 wins Tex; so go bet some serious buckswanas on more if you want

I may just do that.

I think you're wrong about their view of Rodgers deteriorating. They couldn't possibly be that stupid - I hope.

[Joemailman]

I've come to believe Gutebag and Flowerboy have come to the conclusion that AROD is deteriorating as a prime time player; that is part of why they are going to try to redefine his role as a game manager. So who needs WR"s ? We're going to run and run and run to be successful. So we stack the RB talent and hope to hell the OL can block well enough to do so. And with Rodgers play apparently getting worse, they have punched his ticket out of her before AROD will want to stop playing. It's going to be an interesting ride

I suppose it's possible Gutey and Flower have decided that a 36 year old QB who has broken both collarbones and suffered 2 significant leg injuries might not be able to do everything he could do when he was 26. So they've drafted his eventual replacement. And they've installed an offense with more emphasis on the run so that the QB doesn't have to perform heroics every week for the team to win. Crazy.

[falco]

I suppose it's possible Gutey and Flower have decided that a 36 year old QB who has broken both collarbones and suffered 2 significant leg injuries might not be able to do everything he could do when he was 26. So they've drafted his eventual replacement. And they've installed an offense with more emphasis on the run so that the QB doesn't have to perform heroics every week for the team to win. Crazy.

Possible? Yes, anything is possible. But it is much more likely some combination of Murphy, Gutekunst, and LaFleur are on a power trip and trying to simultaneously tank the franchise and alienate our first ballot HOF QB. Or have you not been paying attention???

:huh:

[Joemailman]

Possible? Yes, anything is possible. But it is much more likely some combination of Murphy, Gutekunst, and LaFleur are on a power trip and trying to simultaneously tank the franchise and alienate our first ballot HOF QB. Or have you not been paying attention???

:huh:

I see no reason to think they would want to tank the franchise. Any of them can be fired if the franchise goes in the wrong direction. I think they are trying to win now while also setting up the franchise for winning in the future.

[pbmax]

I've come to believe Gutebag and Flowerboy have come to the conclusion that AROD is deteriorating as a prime time player; that is part of why they are going to try to redefine his role as a game manager. So who needs WR"s ? We're going to run and run and run to be successful. So we stack the RB talent and hope to hell the OL can block well enough to do so. And with Rodgers play apparently getting worse, they have punched his ticket out of her before AROD will want to stop playing. It's going to be an interesting ride

Gute also wanted a QB in 2019 draft. A year after drafting 3 WR. A year after signing him to a record breaking extension.

Hell of a switch to a rookie head coach that wasn't your pick.

[pbmax]

I see no reason to think they would want to tank the franchise. Any of them can be fired if the franchise goes in the wrong direction. I think they are trying to win now while also setting up the franchise for winning in the future.

Think he was joking.

[Joemailman]

Gute also wanted a QB in 2019 draft. A year after drafting 3 WR. A year after signing him to a record breaking extension.

Hell of a switch to a rookie head coach that wasn't your pick.

He might well have agreed with the pick though. There was a report that Lafleur was added to the list of candidates at Gute's insistence. There were a lot of former head coaches on that list. I've always wondered if going that route was Murphy's preference, until they interviewed Lafleur.

[Joemailman]

Think he was joking.

Oops. I must have confused him with Brandon.

[falco]

Oops. I must have confused him with Brandon.

Sorry, I thought I heaped the sarcasm on heavy enough, but I forgot how bad it can get around here! :P

[sharpe1027]

You're not seriously gonna praise Ted Thompson on free agent signings, are you, Sharpe?

In all his years ....... put 'em all together, and those guys don't amount to Smith, Smith, Amos, and Turner in one season. The only two that really stand out for Ted were over age guys he got lucky with.

If stating facts is praise in your mind, I guess. Also, I said nothing about his success at FA. I just said he spent a fair amount on those guys.

[pbmax]

He might well have agreed with the pick though. There was a report that Lafleur was added to the list of candidates at Gute's insistence. There were a lot of former head coaches on that list. I've always wondered if going that route was Murphy's preference, until they interviewed Lafleur.

Yes, I read that too. But Gute was ready for second interviews, Murphy was ready to hire. Hard to read much into that.

[pbmax]

If stating facts is praise in your mind, I guess. Also, I said nothing about his success at FA. I just said he spent a fair amount on those guys.

Its also Year 3 of Gute. Ted signed a big chunk of those FAs in 2006 (in his year 2-3) and then hibernated as someone would say. :lol:

Plenty of time for Gute to be sleepy too.

[falco]

Its also Year 3 of Gute. Ted signed a big chunk of those FAs in 2006 (in his year 2-3) and then hibernated as someone would say. :lol:

Plenty of time for Gute to be sleepy too.

Just my $0.02, but the Woodson signing was TT's greatest move behind drafting Rodgers.

[pbmax]

Just my $0.02, but the Woodson signing was TT's greatest move behind drafting Rodgers.

I think so. Though Pickett was very good too. And Peppers should have been on that level had the team not pulled a brain stem in the 2014 playoffs.

[RashanGary]

I suppose it's possible Gutey and Flower have decided that a 36 year old QB who has broken both collarbones and suffered 2 significant leg injuries might not be able to do everything he could do when he was 26. So they've drafted his eventual replacement. And they've installed an offense with more emphasis on the run so that the QB doesn't have to perform heroics every week for the team to win. Crazy.

It almost makes sense if you're minds not made up on something else

[RashanGary]

It's possible they weren't even looking to draft Rodgers replacement, but love was too good to pass up. You never regret Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes (all drafted by wolf deciples) You move up to get them if possible.

But if Love shows that HOF stuff, just a bad situation for AR as AR is approachint 40 and you have to keep the young one if there is a choice.

It's possible for the situation to be undesirable for Rodgers and good intentions to have been applied at the same time.

[Joemailman]

It's possible they weren't even looking to draft Rodgers replacement, but love was too good to pass up. You never regret Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes (all drafted by wolf deciples) You move up to get them if possible.



I think they decided that a team drafting in the mid 20's/early 30's almost every year doesn't often get a chance to draft a QB as talented as Love. I suspect they were set on moving up to get Love from the start if he slid in the draft.

[sharpe1027]

Its also Year 3 of Gute. Ted signed a big chunk of those FAs in 2006 (in his year 2-3) and then hibernated as someone would say. :lol:

Plenty of time for Gute to be sleepy too.

They're pretty similar in that regard at the same point in their tenure.

I know the popular sentiment is Thompson avoided free agency completely. Like many things, the truth is not as black and white as the narrative.

[ThunderDan]

It's possible they weren't even looking to draft Rodgers replacement, but love was too good to pass up. You never regret Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes (all drafted by wolf deciples) You move up to get them if possible.

But if Love shows that HOF stuff, just a bad situation for AR as AR is approachint 40 and you have to keep the young one if there is a choice.

It's possible for the situation to be undesirable for Rodgers and good intentions to have been applied at the same time.

Unless they are sitting on the bench behind your HOF QB.

We had Brunell, Haselbeck and Brooks on the Packers teams when Favre was here. At least we were able to get some draft capital when we traded them.

[sharpe1027]

Double post.

[GB-Brandon]

Possible? Yes, anything is possible. But it is much more likely some combination of Murphy, Gutekunst, and LaFleur are on a power trip and trying to simultaneously tank the franchise and alienate our first ballot HOF QB. Or have you not been paying attention???

:huh:

Im not so sure about “tanking the franchise.” I am certain they think they are on the right track and are building something that is fantastic and amazing. Time will tell on that. Now, “Tanking The Rodgers Era With GB” is a different story. They brought nobody in other then an injury proned JAG and passed on 36 receivers in the draft.

Instead they chose to make picks that align more with the future. I am simply following their moves here.

[pbmax]

Unless they are sitting on the bench behind your HOF QB.

We had Brunell, Haselbeck and Brooks on the Packers teams when Favre was here. At least we were able to get some draft capital when we traded them.

That is the part of the plan I don't think they have an answer for. If succession comes in two years, how do you handle it?

[RashanGary]

If love shows Hof stuff, you trade Rodgers without blinking

[RashanGary]

I'm starting to see what Brandon is saying about the future thing. He wants a full sell out on resources for right now with no thought of the future and gute balances it.

I understand gute trying to build sustainable success but I can see how someone just wants to shoot the whole load now too

[RashanGary]

I don't see clowney taking a year. Glad we have Deguara instead of a one year Sanders rental. But whatever, I see why they think that way

[texaspackerbacker]

Just my $0.02, but the Woodson signing was TT's greatest move behind drafting Rodgers.

I agree, but all things considered, Ted got lucky. Woodson at his age could easily have bombed out and made the signing a big waste. Same with Peppers.

[texaspackerbacker]

If love shows Hof stuff, you trade Rodgers without blinking

No, you've got that backwards. You ride Rodgers as long as he is still GOAT-like, and if Love is good enough, sacrifice a mid-level contract at some other position to keep Love beyond the four years of his rookie contract.

[GB-Brandon]

I'm starting to see what Brandon is saying about the future thing. He wants a full sell out on resources for right now with no thought of the future and gute balances it.

I understand gute trying to build sustainable success but I can see how someone just wants to shoot the whole load now too

Go look at the cap situation. Gute already “Sold Out For Now.” We’re not keeping certain guys next year. The “Time Was Now” Based on contracts that were given and moves made including giving Rodgers that huge contract just two years ago with tons of guaranteed $.

The FINAL MOVES were needed to be made and weren’t. It’s like they got halfway in and then decided to pull out. Now everyone is scratching their heads trying to figure it out.

Like Bretsky posted it appears behind closed doors LaFluer and Gute don’t believe Rodgers is Elite anymore.

[GB-Brandon]

I’m sure it also wore on LaFluer that Rodgers continued to audible and run his playbook instead of Lafleur’s on a a lot of plays and it’s wearing on LaFleur.

[GB-Brandon]

I think Jordan Love is exactly what LaFluer wants. A guy that can run his playbook and follow through with plays called. LaFluer wants to run his system and believes starting from scratch with a new QB that he can influence is the way to go. It makes sense but not sure it will work.

It didn’t with Mariota and the Titans.

[sharpe1027]

I agree, but all things considered, Ted got lucky. Woodson at his age could easily have bombed out and made the signing a big waste. Same with Peppers.

That's true, but do you also say he got unlucky with the failed signings? If not, are you being unbiased in your assessment? There's an element of luck to every signing.

[GB-Brandon]

On Gute’s side his ego runs high as exhibited over and over and he wants to get the the franchise back from Aaron Rodgers who has been the face of it for years and runs as Rodgers runs.

Gute doesn’t like that.

[GB-Brandon]

The 2020 season is set up as nothing more then a “Look Everyone Rodgers Has Regressed” as we give him zero weapons and hang him out to dry. That’s how Gute Operates.

He did the same thing to McCarthy.

[GB-Brandon]

This Gute is bad news. I’m telling ya.

[Radagast]

I’m sure it also wore on LaFluer that Rodgers continued to audible and run his playbook instead of Lafleur’s on a a lot of plays and it’s wearing on LaFleur.

Putting words in LaFluer's or anyone's mouth is just wrong. Rodgers/LaFleur ran the media gauntlet last season and finished with a 13-3 record and a NFC North Title. No HC likes to watch his QB change his plays, but it "is" Rodgers job to change plays to avoid a defense that is targeted to stop a called play or to take advantage of a defensive weakness. I think they did quite well in 2019 and should do as well in 2020.

Jordan Love was drafted because he possesses both the physical and mental skills to someday be a starter. I said someday! Today he is learning his playbook like any rookie and will looking to Rodgers to minter him. I would not cast him as a ready to start QB until his 3rd or 4th NFL Season. Rodgers is not concerned over Love and will be the Packers QB until he retires/is injured/or is traded to another team. Rodgers is a sure HOF QB that has many years still left to play at the highest level, Love is project that has the golden opportunity to learn from Rodgers in the same way that Young learned from Joe Montana.

Gutekunst and Rodgers are not Thompson and Favre. I don't foresee any recapitulations of that "Greek Tragedy".

[GB-Brandon]

Putting words in LaFluer's or anyone's mouth is just wrong. Rodgers/LaFleur ran the media gauntlet last season and finished with a 13-3 record and a NFC North Title. No HC likes to watch his QB change his plays, but it "is" Rodgers job to change plays to avoid a defense that is targeted to stop a called play or to take advantage of a defensive weakness. I think they did quite well in 2019 and should do as well in 2020.

Jordan Love was drafted because he possesses both the physical and mental skills to someday be a starter. I said someday! Today he is learning his playbook like any rookie and will looking to Rodgers to minter him. I would not cast him as a ready to start QB until his 3rd or 4th NFL Season. Rodgers is not concerned over Love and will be the Packers QB until he retires/is injured/or is traded to another team. Rodgers is a sure HOF QB that has many years still left to play at the highest level, Love is project that has the golden opportunity to learn from Rodgers in the same way that Young learned from Joe Montana.

Gutekunst and Rodgers are not Thompson and Favre. I don't foresee any recapitulations of that "Greek Tragedy".

I’m not putting words in anyone’s mouth. I’m following their “Actions” which I keep having to post. I also never said Love would start this season. The fact is whether you or anyone else wants to believe it or not is we’re moving into “A NEW ERA.” Shit, it’s even being painted on signs here and appears to be “The Narrative” here in Green Bay that does not include Rodgers. You don’t trade up in the first round to take a QB to put him on the bench for 3-4 years. It makes almost zero sense in today’s NFL.

The other moves or non-moves made makes it clear to see the Packers do not value going all in this year with Rodgers. In fact there moves that “Point to the future.” Rodgers will have to overcome so much this season and I’m not sure that he can go to the level required that will be necessary. I still believe he can win another Super Bowl but it will need to be with a different team that values him and puts the necessary pieces around him.

The chances Rodgers gets traded after 2020 IMO are much more possible then him staying and finishing out his contract. This season is gonna be a wild ride. Really the narrative around here should be “What will his trade value be next year” and “where does he get traded too”

Sorry this is so hard for you. It was for me as well.

[RashanGary]

Only thing I know for sure is Gute liked Love a lot. Traded up in the first round to get him.

And now we watch it play out.

[GB-Brandon]

Well i understand it’s a tough reality and bitter pill to swallow. This Jordan Love thing is “not an experiment” in their minds. It was a “Decisive Move” to replace Aaron Rodgers and subsequent moves reinforce their direction. Gute will ultimately live or die with the results as far as him remaining as GM for the Packers.

Heck, I can see a scenario where neither Jordan Love or Aaron Rodgers is our QB 3-4 years from now. This has the potential to go many different ways.

[RashanGary]

I think it was just a case of loving the player, not a forced move with the intention to remove Rodgers. But hey, we all have different opinions on what gute might thinking

[RashanGary]

I don't know I'm as sure of myself on what gute is thinking as you are. You really should find a way to take advantage of that talent

[GB-Brandon]

I don't know I'm as sure of myself on what gute is thinking as you are. You really should find a way to take advantage of that talent

Trust me. I do.

[GB-Brandon]

I think it was just a case of loving the player, not a forced move with the intention to remove Rodgers. But hey, we all have different opinions on what gute might thinking

If you are jumping off the reservation and ignoring immediate needs on a team one game from the Super Bowl for just some “Love Affair” with a player that plays the same position as the best player on your team that has almost zero chance of helping you “NOW” then your not the right person for the job.

[GB-Brandon]

This was done with a clear direction of the future being Jordan Love as soon as he can. All the subsequent moves point to this.

[GB-Brandon]

Why would anyone pay a QB 34 Million or even 24 million to hand the ball off “over and over”

[GB-Brandon]

In 2005 they weren’t “changing the whole offense” to become some run heavy team.

They had a QB that was threatening to retire every year.

[texaspackerbacker]

That's true, but do you also say he got unlucky with the failed signings? If not, are you being unbiased in your assessment? There's an element of luck to every signing.

Maybe, but almost all were fringe guys who were predictably mediocre. Chillar, Saturday, etc. were never gonna be anything special. When players like that play down to expectations, it's not bad luck. When somebody like Pickett rises to being comparatively decent, that's beyond expectations. To put it in current terms, if Rick Wagner or Devin Funchess become quality starters, it's about like Pickett doing so.

[falco]

Sorry this is so hard for you. It was for me as well.


:roll:

[pbmax]

Go look at the cap situation. Gute already “Sold Out For Now.” We’re not keeping certain guys next year. The “Time Was Now” Based on contracts that were given and moves made including giving Rodgers that huge contract just two years ago with tons of guaranteed $.

The FINAL MOVES were needed to be made and weren’t. It’s like they got halfway in and then decided to pull out. Now everyone is scratching their heads trying to figure it out.

Like Bretsky posted it appears behind closed doors LaFluer and Gute don’t believe Rodgers is Elite anymore.

I don't think that is it. I think Gute thinks his future is tied to getting another better than Pro Bowl talent at QB.

The WR thing started after Adams was drafted.

Lack of ILB has been the case since Desmond Bishop got hurt.

Drafting D and only D happened after 2011.

I think D&D in the 2nd and 3rd round were the sop to The Flower, not the QB. Otherwise, why chase Lock last year? The H back was, in part, a recommendation from his friend, who was his college coach.

[beveaux1]

I don't think that is it. I think Gute thinks his future is tied to getting another better than Pro Bowl talent at QB.

think D&D in the 2nd and 3rd round were the sop to The Flower, not the QB. Otherwise, why chase Lock last year? The H back was, in part, a recommendation from his friend, who was his college coach.

I agree with this. If we hadn't drafted Love, Rodgers gets hurt, and the team goes 5-11, we draft high but we would still be a 10 win team with a healthy Rodgers. Drafting a QB with that high pick would look like
we're rebuilding and that would be the impression given to the fans.

This pick of Love almost looks like we were drafting from a position of strength, with a 13 win team that made the NFC Championship game and could afford to take a flyer on a QB that had impressive talent and had slipped to us.

I also think the 2nd and 3rd round picks were LaFleur picks because he felt they could be plug and play and could help the team now.

We'll see if that's true. I think they needed a WR to groom for the future, but I also thought they needed to draft a pass rusher two years ago when all they had was Matthews and Perry.
If I recall correctly, they took DBs and waited until the next year for Gary and the Smiths.

Interested to see how this season plays out.

[GB-Brandon]

I don't think that is it. I think Gute thinks his future is tied to getting another better than Pro Bowl talent at QB.

The WR thing started after Adams was drafted.

Lack of ILB has been the case since Desmond Bishop got hurt.

Drafting D and only D happened after 2011.

I think D&D in the 2nd and 3rd round were the sop to The Flower, not the QB. Otherwise, why chase Lock last year? The H back was, in part, a recommendation from his friend, who was his college coach.

Lock last year? I believe Gute is “Infatuated” with QB’s cause you have to add Kizer to the list as well.

I agree with almost all these things. I’m actually fine with the Packers draft overall(I think they got some good players) if they would of addressed D-Line and WR either in free agency(other then Funches) or the draft. We basically gave up a 1st and a 4th that we could of used and took a shot with Tee Higgins or Denzel Mimms and also got a DL to potentially to help solidify the Front. That was enough draft capital to move around the board and get it done.

I will never “Love” the “Love Pick” unless he somehow becomes something special and then I will happily admit I was wrong. If he is just some career back up or bust or journeyman QB then this was a MASSIVE FAILURE. To take this gamble with a team that I believe was a few pieces away is just painful down to the core.

This whole thing has me just hoping they make some type of move now. It’s so desperate at WR that I would be more then happy to take a chance and welcome Antonio Brown and hope for the best cause we’re not winning a Super Bowl this year with current situation IMO.

[Bretsky]

they have broken you too

[GB-Brandon]

I agree with this. If we hadn't drafted Love, Rodgers gets hurt, and the team goes 5-11, we draft high but we would still be a 10 win team with a healthy Rodgers. Drafting a QB with that high pick would look like
we're rebuilding and that would be the impression given to the fans.

This pick of Love almost looks like we were drafting from a position of strength, with a 13 win team that made the NFC Championship game and could afford to take a flyer on a QB that had impressive talent and had slipped to us.

I also think the 2nd and 3rd round picks were LaFleur picks because he felt they could be plug and play and could help the team now.

We'll see if that's true. I think they needed a WR to groom for the future, but I also thought they needed to draft a pass rusher two years ago when all they had was Matthews and Perry.
If I recall correctly, they took DBs and waited until the next year for Gary and the Smiths.

Interested to see how this season plays out.

Getting beat by a team by a combined score of 50-0 in two first half’s of football is not “Strength.” The Packers are not in a position to be making luxury picks. There are a couple serious deficiencies on this roster that needed to be addressed.

There is also zero evidence that JL could be inserted as rookie replacing an injured Rodgers and win games in the NFL.

[Joemailman]

I think Funchess could give Rodgers the kind of red zone target they thought Graham would be until they realized Jimmy can't jump anymore.

[GB-Brandon]

I think Funchess could give Rodgers the kind of red zone target they thought Graham would be until they realized Jimmy can't jump anymore.

If there is a guy to get behind for me it is Funches. Some like MVS and some like Lazard and some even EQ. I like Funches as the best shot to give us some of what we need as a target Rodgers could get comfortable with and make some big catches for us. He isn’t gonna run by anyone but I think he is faster and more twitchy then Graham. The key here is kinda like with Kirsksey and Wagner with staying healthy.

[pbmax]

they have broken you too

Not everything is a conspiracy theory. Sometimes things have rough endings because everyone is imperfect.

[RashanGary]

If you are jumping off the reservation and ignoring immediate needs on a team one game from the Super Bowl for just some “Love Affair” with a player that plays the same position as the best player on your team that has almost zero chance of helping you “NOW” then your not the right person for the job.

Rodgers might get injured.

[GB-Brandon]

Rodgers might get injured.

And what? Jordan Love couldn’t pick up a Utah State team that had some talent deficiencies in the Mountain West. You really think he can carry the Packers with the 27th ranked receiving Corp in the NFL?

[pbmax]

And what? Jordan Love couldn’t pick up a Utah State team that had some talent deficiencies in the Mountain West. You really think he can carry the Packers with the 27th ranked receiving Corp in the NFL?

We saw his HC from last year in Madison. I wouldn't put too much stock in last year. Love isn't perfect and definitely took a step back, but it wasn't just talent either.

But Love wasn't about this year. That's what made it a puzzling pick.

[falco]

Getting beat by a team by a combined score of 50-0 in two first half’s of football is not “Strength.” The Packers are not in a position to be making luxury picks. There are a couple serious deficiencies on this roster that needed to be addressed.

There is also zero evidence that JL could be inserted as rookie replacing an injured Rodgers and win games in the NFL.

Which is it, are we one we piece away from being a contender or do we have serious deficiencies?

[Radagast]

Some still fail to understand that the LaFleur offensive system places greater emphasis on the running game. RB A.J.Dillon will bring a fresh set of legs along with a heavier physical frame. The 2019 season introduced us to this somewhat "retro" offensive system. I expect that with a successful season under this system already in the books, it will operate smother from the start than last season.

I'll be the first to agree that having a great QB like Rodgers is a wonderful advantage, however easing the load on him to carry the team solely on his shoulders can't help but be an advantage for Rodgers and the Packers. More running 1st downs and touchdowns not only relieves the pressure on Rodgers but causes defenses to fear more than a GB passing game. This can open up both the pass and run attacks.

[GB-Brandon]

Which is it, are we one we piece away from being a contender or do we have serious deficiencies?

I’m done digging into it any further . I’ve been more then thorough dissecting the whole thing. I believe I’ve also made it more then clear where I stand.

I’ll offer my “Offseason Grades” if I see that thread comes up.

[falco]

I’m done digging into it any further . I’ve been more then thorough dissecting the whole thing. I believe I’ve also made it more then clear where I stand.

I’ll offer my “Offseason Grades” if I see that thread comes up.

Ok cool.

[run pMc]

Some still fail to understand that the LaFleur offensive system places greater emphasis on the running game. RB A.J.Dillon will bring a fresh set of legs along with a heavier physical frame. The 2019 season introduced us to this somewhat "retro" offensive system. I expect that with a successful season under this system already in the books, it will operate smother from the start than last season.

I'll be the first to agree that having a great QB like Rodgers is a wonderful advantage, however easing the load on him to carry the team solely on his shoulders can't help but be an advantage for Rodgers and the Packers. More running 1st downs and touchdowns not only relieves the pressure on Rodgers but causes defenses to fear more than a GB passing game. This can open up both the pass and run attacks.

Agree with Radagast on this. Running game will help. I wanted Gute to draft a quality WR, but it's clear he drafted to bolster the running game with Dillon, Deguara, and the OL. Offense will be more balanced. If you think this is dooming the offense, consider the peak years of Ahman Green or Eddie Lacy. Pair that with a defense that improved (but still needs more) and it could give teams trouble. Rodgers is still very good, but putting it all on him is not a recipe for success, especially as he nears 40.

[texaspackerbacker]

Good Post.

A year ago, I was dead set against drafting a WR early. This year with the apparent quality in the draft of WRs, I was convinced we should get one also. The powers that be saw it different. I do think, though, we could have built for a stronger run game without Dillon and Deguara - meaning strengthened the O Line. Either those guys were seen as excellent bargains or in the case of Dillon anyway, it is pre-planned not to re-sign both J. Williams and Jones next year.

[RashanGary]

Losing Jones would be a mega disappointment. He's on the same page with Rodgers. Game changer as a RB in all spots except short yardage.

Rodgers needs Jones and Adams these next two years. These might be Rodgers last two years. Would hate to see him done so dirty.

[texaspackerbacker]

I agree with this also, but it kinda seems they are setting things up to do just that. Jones not only has been good; He's been pretty durable, he apparently is an excellent person, and most of all for me, he's the kind of breakaway threat I want my team to have at RB.

[Radagast]

With 3 months before a regular season game, Adams is the only "safe" WR on the Packers roster. The rest will be battling for the remaining slots. With so many vying for an NFL paycheck The QBs in practice will be throwing a lot of footballs. Rodgers throws will be strictly counted in camp and reserved for those that most likely will be the starting WR/TE/RB force.

QBs Jordan Love/Tim Boyle/and Jalen Morton will be throwing a TON of footballs in TC. Rodgers will be put into proper shape, but he will not be carelessly risked. The running game may be in greater focus, but GB will still field the best WRs available. There may yet be FA WR/s that have not been added to the roster and I'm sure that some are just not released yet

TC should be quite a show !

[falco]

With 3 months before a regular season game, Adams is the only "safe" WR on the Packers roster. The rest will be battling for the remaining slots. With so many vying for an NFL paycheck The QBs in practice will be throwing a lot of footballs. Rodgers throws will be strictly counted in camp and reserved for those that most likely will be the starting WR/TE/RB force.

QBs Jordan Love/Tim Boyle/and Jalen Morton will be throwing a TON of footballs in TC. Rodgers will be put into proper shape, but he will not be carelessly risked. The running game may be in greater focus, but GB will still field the best WRs available. There may yet be FA WR/s that have not been added to the roster and I'm sure that some are just not released yet

TC should be quite a show !

Should being the key word there... Who knows what it will be at this point in time

[Radagast]

Should being the key word there... Who knows what it will be at this point in time


True enough, but many are posting as if all will proceed as usual. Using that hopeful thought, a 2020 Packer TC may still not see the traditional Kids/Bicycles this year. Placing greater risk on the community may not be so good "this" year.

As for fans in the stands at practice or games, it still remains to be resolved. Perhaps the Packers will stream the practices for the fans. Safety, distancing (when possible), and testing will be the order of the day.

[GB-Brandon]

Wisconsin is pretty much “Fully Opening.” Their even opening up gyms so I expect fans to be allowed at camp in some type of revised version as long as things don’t escalate.

This is good. I’m really looking forward to this.

[Zool]

Good question about the bike ride. I wonder how that will go.

[Joemailman]

I don't see any of that happening this year. Just too difficult to enforce distancing.

[Zool]

I don't see any of that happening this year. Just too difficult to enforce distancing.

It seems the bulk of WI is not concerned with distancing. They are allowing people from MN to drive over and get a haircut with no PPE. Wonder if the NFL or the Packers will feel differently?

[Joemailman]

It seems the bulk of WI is not concerned with distancing. They are allowing people from MN to drive over and get a haircut with no PPE. Wonder if the NFL or the Packers will feel differently?

I think they will be more cautious. All of the Titletown businesses are still closed to the public even as a lot of other places are opening up.

[Zool]

I think they will be more cautious. All of the Titletown businesses are still closed to the public even as a lot of other places are opening up.

There's so much money wrapped up in the NFL, it would make sense for them to be super cautious.

[falco]

There's so much money wrapped up in the NFL, it would make sense for them to be super cautious.

My hope is they can still find a way to generate their content and get it to the masses without creating any public health risks. I'm looking forward to football as a return to some kind of normalcy this fall, even if there aren't people in the stands.

[pbmax]

Rob Demovsky @RobDemovsky

LaFleur on @WildeAndTausch:
“One are we really need to improve on is creating more explosive plays. We were pretty efficient ... but were 23rd in explosive plays. That starts with play calling (and) maybe take a few more chances to help generate those plays down the field.”

Yep, they are definitely running more with the rookie RB and TE.

Zach Kruse @zachkruse2
They took plenty of shots. Creating explosive plays is much easier with explosive players, and the Packers just didn’t (and still don’t?) have many of them

AND FURTHER EVIDENCE THAT THE SILO MAN HAS FAILED.

[pbmax]

Bill Huber @BillHuberSI

From 2008-2018, the #Packers averaged 88 plays of 20-plus yards. In 2019 under Matt LaFleur, they had 59. When they had five 20s in a game, they were undefeated.

No wonder LaFleur told @WildeAndTausch that "creating more explosive plays" is priority.

[GB-Brandon]

Bill Huber @BillHuberSI

From 2008-2018, the #Packers averaged 88 plays of 20-plus yards. In 2019 under Matt LaFleur, they had 59. When they had five 20s in a game, they were undefeated.

No wonder LaFleur told @WildeAndTausch that "creating more explosive plays" is priority.


Except it got left off the shopping list all off-season. Great!!!

[GB-Brandon]

Someone forgot to buy all the ingredients. Hmmmmm

Making Lasagna with no noodles. Yum Yum.

[bobblehead]

Bill Huber @BillHuberSI

From 2008-2018, the #Packers averaged 88 plays of 20-plus yards. In 2019 under Matt LaFleur, they had 59. When they had five 20s in a game, they were undefeated.

No wonder LaFleur told @WildeAndTausch that "creating more explosive plays" is priority.

Wait....when u have successful plays on offense u win more often? Who knew. It's that simple. 3 and out all day, but complete 5 long passes a game and you win!

[pbmax]

Wait....when u have successful plays on offense u win more often? Who knew. It's that simple. 3 and out all day, but complete 5 long passes a game and you win!

You might be surprised at the number of 3 and out drives teams have. Nearly scoring on five plays is a HUGE deal. With some field position (special teams and defense) you are in scoring position already).

[Sparkey]

Someone forgot to buy all the ingredients. Hmmmmm

Making Lasagna with no noodles. Yum Yum.

Precooked cabbage leaves. Try it some time.

[pbmax]

Precooked cabbage leaves. Try it some time.

Zucchini works too.

[run pMc]

or use spaghetti noodles. It's a staple in many pantries, just like a decent running game for an offense.

[bobblehead]

You might be surprised at the number of 3 and out drives teams have. Nearly scoring on five plays is a HUGE deal. With some field position (special teams and defense) you are in scoring position already).

My point was that you don't "create" explosive plays, you put a defense on its heels, wear them down and explosive plays happen. Every big run Jones had last year was when the D was starting to guess. He didn't create them on his own.

[pbmax]

My point was that you don't "create" explosive plays, you put a defense on its heels, wear them down and explosive plays happen. Every big run Jones had last year was when the D was starting to guess. He didn't create them on his own.

I don't think this is true at all s it related to being on their heels or worn down.

Scheme does play a role.

[theeaterofshades]

So 2021 draft, target EQ's brother Amon-Ra? I am kind of in favor of it at this way too early of a juncture.

[bobblehead]

I don't think this is true at all s it related to being on their heels or worn down.

Scheme does play a role.

doesn't scheme put a defense on its heels?

[Zool]

So 2021 draft, target EQ's brother Amon-Ra? I am kind of in favor of it at this way too early of a juncture.

At the very least, he could unleash a plague on the opposition.

[pbmax]

doesn't scheme put a defense on its heels?

Sure, but I thought you were using on their heels to describe being worn down.

So I should have posted that I don't think tiredness explains many big plays.

[sharpe1027]

doesn't scheme put a defense on its heels?

Isn't that still creating a big play? Don't big plays happen on the first drive, on the first snap, even?

I do not understand your point.

[RashanGary]

Isn't that still creating a big play? Don't big plays happen on the first drive, on the first snap, even?

I do not understand your point.

He's saying if an offense both runs and passes the ball, sometimes the defense guesses pass when it's a run and that helps set up explosive runs. And if you're running well, the defense might even go do far as to commit extra resources to the run, which sets up the explosive pass.

If a defense knows what is coming, they can attack in a forward leaning way. Being on ones heels is saying they can't lean into an aggressive stance, but instead are keeping their weight back and waiting until they know what's coming before they lean into an attack direction.

In summary, offensive balance leads to defensive uncertainty. Hence the term, "keeping them on their heels" or "keeping the defense off balance" or making the defense unsure so they can't attack a known play type.

[RashanGary]

Balance and unpredictability are established over time. So the very first play of a new game, before any in game identity can be established, the long term unpredictability or "balance" of an offense can already be established, leading to more off balance defensive calls and play tentitiveness (on heels) which leads to more big plays, from play 1, and throughout the game.

[RashanGary]

I'm surprised the concept offensive play calling balance doesn't register with so many people. Looking at extreme imbalance would be an offense running outside zone right on every play. There is no guessing for the defense. Just line up and stop that. Another extreme form of imbalance would be passing on 70% of first downs. A defense could then commit the DL to put their energy into pass rush first and 70% of the time they'd be right, so over time the aggressive pass rush would pay off more times than not, leading to a more successful defense.

When you run 50% of the time on first down, teams have to equally honor the run and pass. Or guess. That's what's called uncertainty and uncertain guys play with slower game speed as they can't immediately commit to one thing.

It seems so obvious to me, but maybe some people really don't see this as an advantage and offensive coordinators really are idiots for their commitment to unpredictable play calling on first down. Often times rather than Calling it unpredictability, they shoeten it to say they aim for balance, assuming people understand why. Clearly the reasons for balance are completely disagreed upon by a lot of people who watch football.

[pbmax]

Here is the next question you must interrogate your wide zone right on every play scenario:

How many left runs, or passes, would you need to call to get them to stop committing more men to stop it zone right?

I don't think the answer is anywhere as high as 30% tendency breaker.

No one is against breaking tendency when fruitful or being unpredictable. But I'm not going to insist on 50/50 or even 55/45 for my balance.

If you were to simply do what the defense is offering, you'd run the Mike Sherman game plan versus the Ravens in 2001 (a win by the way). You run when they put in their pass rushers. You pass when their runs stuffers are in. The defense would dictate the balance.

[RashanGary]

That worked really well on 2001 because he had the OL who he knew could steam roll their pass rushers and the QB he knew could take advantage when they didn't have pass rushers in. Some teams, some situations, something like that could work great.

[RashanGary]

I think, on first down, unless you have a really poor running game..... I think 50/50 is a nice run/pass split. If you run the ball really well, I think 60% first down running would open up such huge passing numbers in the 40% that even running more times they'd still get more pass yards.

[RashanGary]

Especially if you have personnel groups that include guys like Sternberger (the guy we hope he can be), Deguara (the guy we hope he is), and maybe even double RB backfields with Williams (can block a little) and Jones... When both backs are good pass catchers like that and you have a whole crew of run blockers...

If you have personnel like that and you establish some run dominance, playcallers start selling out to stop that run. I know you're not a pride guy, but trust me, getting rolled up on is embarrassing to prideful people.... So they sell out to stop that and AR carves them up

Again, gotta have the guys who can do it though. But ideally, I'm hoping for a dominant run game, which will mean more run plays, but even more pass yards

[RashanGary]

If I had

Jennings in his prime
Jordy in his prime
Finley in his prime
J. Jones in his prime
And Donald Driver

And then a whole crew of good pass blocking OL anchored by Sitton, Lang and Bulaga..... AND Aaron Rodgers in his prime......


And a shitty running back


50/50 on first down wouldn't make much sense for me.

[RashanGary]

So the 50/50 thing is a rough starting point that changes with opponent, personnel and even the ol' ride the hot hand once the game starts idea.... And so many more.

But building a team that can run the ball well, like the Packers seem to be doing is really built to pass for a lot of yards even if they pass a little less often percentage wise

[RashanGary]

I've never heard a coach insistent on 50/50 ball. They all want to run it well, but I think most do that because they know it opens up the passing game and high scoring offense.

[texaspackerbacker]

If I had

Jennings in his prime
Jordy in his prime
Finley in his prime
J. Jones in his prime
And Donald Driver

And then a whole crew of good pass blocking OL anchored by Sitton, Lang and Bulaga..... AND Aaron Rodgers in his prime......


And a shitty running back


50/50 on first down wouldn't make much sense for me.

Very True, but even I, one of the biggest proponents of pass-first, am coming around to maybe not run-first, but a fairly balanced attack.

[sharpe1027]

I'm not questioning that being difficult to predict can lead to big plays. Nobody is saying that's not that case. I mean the concept is sports 101.

This conversation started with criticism of this: "That starts with play calling (and) maybe take a few more chances to help generate those plays down the field"

So, is the argument that play calling does not help create big plays? Will taking more chances not lead to more big plays?

[RashanGary]

Very True, but even I, one of the biggest proponents of pass-first, am coming around to maybe not run-first, but a fairly balanced attack.

It's run more often to pass more successfully and score more points.

[RashanGary]

I'm not questioning that being difficult to predict can lead to big plays. Nobody is saying that's not that case. I mean the concept is sports 101.

This conversation started with criticism of this: "That starts with play calling (and) maybe take a few more chances to help generate those plays down the field"

So, is the argument that play calling does not help create big plays? Will taking more chances not lead to more big plays?

It probably will and should. So many factors go into big pass plays.

Great personnel makes big pass plays more likely
A great run game opens up big pass plays
Blown coverages
Play calling

So many things affect big pass plays. Sure, one of them is coaching and Calling plays to get more. Not so sure calling the plays will be enough though. A lot of factors go in. With this offense, I'd rather see it organic. Run the ball so well, AR will get some favorable looks and exploit the hell out of it. I'd rather see it come this way than forced.

Not good to force the run game either. Not good to force anything.

[RashanGary]

If we played the browns and they were insistent on matching Aaron Jones with BJ Goodson, id take some shots down field there.

If a team is playing dime personnel and skinny DL to pass rush and you think you have the guys to pound it down their throats, I wouldn't be forcing deep passes there. I'd run more.

Its so fluid with so many variables. Bill Walsh wrote pages upon pages about his concepts and the why's. For us to do that here, discuss.thst deep, to try to make everything concrete in few enough words to keep each other's attention spans.

I'm not seeing this conversation getting locked down. And even in trying to lock it down, if we allowed ourselves that type of depth, something with so many variables is like trying to take a picture of the ocean as it is. A second later, and it's moved. It never stays in the same. Always changing.

[sharpe1027]

It probably will and should. So many factors go into big pass plays.

Great personnel makes big pass plays more likely
A great run game opens up big pass plays
Blown coverages
Play calling

So many things affect big pass plays. Sure, one of them is coaching and Calling plays to get more. Not so sure calling the plays will be enough though. A lot of factors go in. With this offense, I'd rather see it organic. Run the ball so well, AR will get some favorable looks and exploit the hell out of it. I'd rather see it come this way than forced.

Not good to force the run game either. Not good to force anything.

Okay. Reading between the lines, he thinks they missed opportunities to test the defense with some shots down the field. Disagree?

[RashanGary]

As soon as you start talking about just dialing up big plays, you immediate open the door to the execution discussion, the personnel discussion and the scheme discussion.

Honestly assessing our roster, I dont think the deep passing game is the strength of our personnel.

The personnel strength is starting to be versatile TEs and backs who can run or pass and take advantage of what the defense gives.

So as soon as you start talking about scheming more big plays you get people talking about how to get the right matchups because we just don't have the guys to force that type of game down anyobes throat. We're more likely to have a Billy turner wiff or MVS drop than a 40 yard bomb. So people start talking about how ya gonna do with with these guys?

Run to set up the pass starts making more sense once you let go of the pleasant but unlikely idea that you can just throw it downfield at will because you dialed up the play and said so.

[RashanGary]

Okay. Reading between the lines, he thinks they missed opportunities to test the defense with some shots down the field. Disagree?

I think he looked at stats and numbers after the season was over and realized his offense was missing big plays. So he's digging for ways to make big plays with the talent he has on the roster now.

[sharpe1027]

I think he looked at stats and numbers after the season was over and realized his offense was missing big plays. So he's digging for ways to make big plays with the talent he has on the roster now.

So, you disagree then?

[pbmax]

It's run more often to pass more successfully and score more points.

I have news for Flower Power offense fans. The Packers pass game is still more potent AND has more potential to be improved.

There is not much room left at the top end for the running game. Top 3 or 4 last two years (DVOA).

If there was ever a chance with Rodgers that defenses would shift attention to the run game, this year will be it. But I bet it still doesn't happen.

[pbmax]

Very True, but even I, one of the biggest proponents of pass-first, am coming around to maybe not run-first, but a fairly balanced attack.

Et tu Brute?

[texaspackerbacker]

hahahaha What I should have said is that it has a lot to do with my high opinion of Aaron Jones. I still don't think much of grind it out football, but when you've got a breakaway RB who is fairly durable and motivated by a contract year, ride him.

[Radagast]

This is a WR thread, but RBs catch footballs too. Including the rookie RB A.J.Dillon , which RB is best catching passes?

[run pMc]

I have news for Flower Power offense fans. The Packers pass game is still more potent AND has more potential to be improved.

There is not much room left at the top end for the running game. Top 3 or 4 last two years (DVOA).

If there was ever a chance with Rodgers that defenses would shift attention to the run game, this year will be it. But I bet it still doesn't happen.


I read somewhere that Rodgers actually attempted a lot of deep throws, he just wasn't very effective with them...so I agree the pass game has more potential to be improved. I think most would agree with that, and explains the frustration at no WRs drafted because adding talent implies (but does not itself guarantee) improving the pass game. Rodgers could rediscover his accuracy, the young WRs could improve, the TEs could emerge ... those are all ways it can improve.

Before last year I would have said Jamaal Williams might be the best receiving RB, but Jones has overtaken him. Ervin might show something, and Dillon was reportedly underused. I do think the run game will be better with the additions of Dillon and Deguara (APRH) and the subtraction of Jimmy Graham...I'm not sure if it will necessarily show significantly in the numbers.

[Zool]

I want to say Jones is best receiving back, but I can't get that image out of my head from last year where he took that deep ball to the face mask as he fell down in the end zone.

[RashanGary]

I have news for Flower Power offense fans. The Packers pass game is still more potent AND has more potential to be improved.

There is not much room left at the top end for the running game. Top 3 or 4 last two years (DVOA).

If there was ever a chance with Rodgers that defenses would shift attention to the run game, this year will be it. But I bet it still doesn't happen.

Run more often and keep that same DVOA, and teams gonna have no choice but to overcommit. You'll see a passing dvoa in the top 3 if they can run just as well, more often

[smuggler]

Not sure that running more often can result in that DVOA. Last year definitely felt like the running game taking advantage of the defense being out to stop the pass. If you run more frequently, they'll be forced into more run defense. Should help the passing attack, though.

[RashanGary]

Not sure that running more often can result in that DVOA. Last year definitely felt like the running game taking advantage of the defense being out to stop the pass. If you run more frequently, they'll be forced into more run defense. Should help the passing attack, though.

Agree. They ran well when they ran, but not quite often enough to really open things up for AR.

Aaron Jones, AJ Dillon and Jamaal Williams, plus Sternberger and Deguara (skilled run blockers in place of Graham) should make it possible to run more often and be good at it.

I'm very curious to see how they piece it together this year.

[pbmax]

Agree. They ran well when they ran, but not quite often enough to really open things up for AR.

Aaron Jones, AJ Dillon and Jamaal Williams, plus Sternberger and Deguara (skilled run blockers in place of Graham) should make it possible to run more often and be good at it.

I'm very curious to see how they piece it together this year.

If Jones 18 TDs and long runs don't open a defense, then defenses are not going to open up.

Team needs better production out of the WR. Rodgers could play better, but WR have the most room for improvement.

[sharpe1027]

Team needs better production out of the WR. Rodgers could play better, but WR have the most room for improvement.

I tend to agree, but having a fairly low completion percentage coupled with league low interceptions suggests a very conservative approach by Rodgers.

[pbmax]

I tend to agree, but having a fairly low completion percentage coupled with league low interceptions suggests a very conservative approach by Rodgers.

Perhaps. But I am more worried about lack of deep completions. And that I place more on the WR. Rodgers has not been at his best dp, but when receivers are good, they make the QB look better than he is.

There was a Russell Wilson highlight reel that NFL.com was running on Twitter. It was a lot of big completions that featured a LOT of tough adjustments and catches by his receivers. Except for MVS versus the Raiders, Packers simply have not had that.

[sharpe1027]

Perhaps. But I am more worried about lack of deep completions. And that I place more on the WR. Rodgers has not been at his best dp, but when receivers are good, they make the QB look better than he is.

There was a Russell Wilson highlight reel that NFL.com was running on Twitter. It was a lot of big completions that featured a LOT of tough adjustments and catches by his receivers. Except for MVS versus the Raiders, Packers simply have not had that.

Some analysis trying to tease out QB vs WR credit for deep throws puts Wilson in the top. Rodgers didn't make the top list, but he did throw a ton down field.
https://sportsinfosolutionsblog.com/2020/01/07/who-were-the-best-quarterbacks-throwing-long-passes-in-2019/

[run pMc]

Russell Wilson is an excellent deep thrower...right now I think he's more accurate at deep throws than Rodgers.
Agree WRs and play calling have most room for improvement. I think MLF will continue to refine/revamp the calls -- there were several games where the scripted stuff worked great but the offense sputtered after that.

[pbmax]

Russell Wilson is an excellent deep thrower...right now I think he's more accurate at deep throws than Rodgers.
Agree WRs and play calling have most room for improvement. I think MLF will continue to refine/revamp the calls -- there were several games where the scripted stuff worked great but the offense sputtered after that.

Same as the last year with McCarthy. Weird because Rodgers wanted it so it just can't be coach versus QB.

[RashanGary]

PFF Packers just posted on Twitter that MVS was targeted 38 times over 20 yards down field. 1 career drop in deep throws.

One trick pony. Good trick. But one trick pony. He's a spot player in long field situations. In the mold of a KGB on defense.

I don't see him ever being a guy you want in the redzone or a guy you want on 3rd and 6 because he doesn't move the chains. He stretches the field and that's about it.

[RashanGary]

Play Funchess a little more when you just need a first down or in the redzone. Play MVS a little more when you want to stretch the field or in matchups where the defense doesn't have the speed to match

[HarveyWallbangers]

PFF Packers just posted on Twitter that MVS was targeted 38 times over 20 yards down field. 1 career drop in deep throws.

How many catches in those situations? Does it count plays where he makes terrible adustments on the ball and doesn't even get his hands on it. His ball skills are terrible. If there is a defender close to him, he rarely comes down with the ball. Perhaps contested catches aren't classified as drops. No statistic is going to make me think he does a good job on deep balls. He can catch the ball thrown to him when he's open, and he does have more than enough speed to take it to the house.

My guess is that Adams, Lazard, Funchess, and probably ESB all play more snaps than MVS this year.

[RashanGary]

How many catches in those situations? Does it count plays where he makes terrible adustments on the ball and doesn't even get his hands on it. His ball skills are terrible. If there is a defender close to him, he rarely comes down with the ball. Perhaps contested catches aren't classified as drops. No statistic is going to make me think he does a good job on deep balls. He can catch the ball thrown to him when he's open, and he does have more than enough speed to take it to the house.

My guess is that Adams, Lazard, Funchess, and probably ESB all play more snaps than MVS this year.

I agree on shorter and intermediate routes. Weirdly though, down field, for whatever reason, my observation is he's always done that well.

It's like James Jones has great ball skills except for over the shoulder stuff. Except the opposite for MVS.

I see what you're saying about traffic and contested stuff. But I'm standing on my one trick pony observation here

[Zool]

I can't find the video of him short arming the long throw against the Bears. His one trick was more like an illusion last season.

[pbmax]

Like a QB who can throw you open, a receiver who can use his hands to make himself open.

[RashanGary]

I can't find the video of him short arming the long throw against the Bears. His one trick was more like an illusion last season.

He has 9 over 40 in his first two years. It's in the top 10 in the NFL for that span

[pbmax]

He has 9 over 40 in his first two years. It's in the top 10 in the NFL for that span

Little like Billy Schroeder.. Great if wide open but ask them to run a route to form and compete for the ball, suddenly less interested.

I am not as down on him as Harv seems to be, but he has to be more competitive in traffic. Rodgers will throw contested balls to guys to battle. If not, its not going there.

[Zool]

He has 9 over 40 in his first two years. It's in the top 10 in the NFL for that span

I had to go look at his game logs. This was from the 2019 season.
1 week one
1 week three
1 week six
2 week seven

I guess my lasting memory is his disappearing act in the second half of the season. I didn't get to watch the Raiders last year, but that was by far his best game statistically. He was awful the last 9 games 19 targets, 5 catches, 37 yards. Maybe he will be better, but he sure looked bad every time I watched him. The one I keep going back to was week one where it alligator armed a bomb when he had 2-3 steps on the DB and there was no way a safety was going to be there. Lazard looked so much better.

For the season he had 56 targets, 26 catches, 452 yards. 46% completion is horrible.

[mraynrand]

There was a Russell Wilson highlight reel that NFL.com was running on Twitter. It was a lot of big completions that featured a LOT of tough adjustments and catches by his receivers. Except for MVS versus the Raiders, Packers simply have not had that.

Jones had an exceptional adjustment in that game too. You bet it helps if the receiver can win at the catch point. Would like to see a little of that MichaelIrvin-esque competitiveness from Funchess. He's done it in the past.

[mraynrand]

The one I keep going back to was week one where it alligator armed a bomb when he had 2-3 steps on the DB and there was no way a safety was going to be there.

reminded me of those James Jones drops. This is MVS's Donald Driver year. He has to make a significant leap this year or he is gone. He may just not have it in him. Wonder what his offseason regimen looks like...

[texaspackerbacker]

Michael Irvin's bread and butter is routinely called OPI nowadays.

Yeah about Valdez-Scantling being in that now or never time like Driver was. I wouldn't bet against him either.

[HarveyWallbangers]

reminded me of those James Jones drops. This is MVS's Donald Driver year. He has to make a significant leap this year or he is gone. He may just not have it in him. Wonder what his offseason regimen looks like...

James Jones had the dropsies one year, but you could tell the ball skills were there. It seemed to be more focus drops. Hand-eye coordination and route timing are lacking for MVS. One of the things I look for in a WR are his ability to adjust his running when the ball is in the air. I liked Greg Jennings because of his ability to adjust to a ball in the air. MVS is more Qadry Ismail than James Jones. I'd like to be wrong.

[mraynrand]

MVS is more Qadry Ismail than James Jones. I'd like to be wrong.

That'a a good comparison. I was joking with the Jones quip. You were spot on when you originally called out MVS as a poor point of catch/coordination guy. It pops out with respect to other receivers once you start looking for it. That's why I wonder what he's up to this summer. A good eye exam follow by some really specific targeted drills might be his only chance. But he was a raw seventh rounder, like Driver. If I recall, Driver had the great leaping/athletic ability/fearlessness to run inside/strong hands at the start. I seem to recall his route running was initially pretty spotty.

[RashanGary]

Saw a post by Lazards dad on Twitter. Spent some time reading up on Lazard.

Dad is a coach. Taught Lazard subtleties at a young age (something Rodgers noticed right away)

Mentally tough. Fearless. Competitive. Plays his best when everything is on the line.

He lost 15 pounds, from 230 to 215 after his rookie practice squad year to dial in on WR as his position.

Basketball standout in highschool (a lot of great receivers cite basketball as the foundation for great footwork as a WR)

Lazard said his running feels more explosive and powerful since the weight loss. He ran a 4.55 at 227 so I'm guessing he's more of a 4.50 guy now. Thay is really good speed to go with that kind of size.


The more I dig into Lazard, those Kenny Golladay and Mike Evans comps look more and more realistic.

[Upnorth]

The more I dig into Lazard, those Kenny Golladay and Mike Evans comps look more and more realistic.

I hope you are right but I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't expect Lazard to come close to Mike Evans, but I'm convinced that he's not a one year wonder like Boykin and Allison. I expect him to have a nice, long career (a James Jones type career).

[GB-Brandon]

“Mediocrity”

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2020/06/12/packers-have-nfls-slowest-skill-position-grouping/

[Joemailman]

“Mediocrity”

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2020/06/12/packers-have-nfls-slowest-skill-position-grouping/

So what this shows is that the offenses with the fastest speed at skill positions ranked 23rd, 6th, 28th, 19th and 13th. The offenses with the slowest speed at skill position ranked 18th, 15th, 7th, 10th and 29th. Very little difference. And by speed we mean how fast guys ran the 40 at the combine. Perhaps timed speed isn't the best way to judge explosiveness of an offensive player. Aaron Jones ran a mediocre 40 time but few would argue that he's not an explosive player. I'm not saying Jeremiah's numbers are wrong. Just not very relevant.

[pbmax]

So what this shows is that the offenses with the fastest speed at skill positions ranked 23rd, 6th, 28th, 19th and 13th. The offenses with the slowest speed at skill position ranked 18th, 15th, 7th, 10th and 29th. Very little difference. And by speed we mean how fast guys ran the 40 at the combine. Perhaps timed speed isn't the best way to judge explosiveness of an offensive player. Aaron Jones ran a mediocre 40 time but few would argue that he's not an explosive player. I'm not saying Jeremiah's numbers are wrong. Just not very relevant.

JMM, I am going to need you to respect my wish to be able to freak out about a post first before you talk us down.

I feel robbed.

[Joemailman]

JMM, I am going to need you to respect my wish to be able to freak out about a post first before you talk us down.

I feel robbed.

Well, I waited almost an hour and nobody said anything. :wait:

[Zool]

I’d sure like the Packers to emulate the Giants and Broncos. They have been amazing lately with all that speed.

[sharpe1027]

These 40s are all from the combine? I wonder what the times would show if the 40s were run today.

[pbmax]

I’d sure like the Packers to emulate the Giants and Broncos. They have been amazing lately with all that speed.

Just looking for an edge. Any edge.

[GB-Brandon]

So what this shows is that the offenses with the fastest speed at skill positions ranked 23rd, 6th, 28th, 19th and 13th. The offenses with the slowest speed at skill position ranked 18th, 15th, 7th, 10th and 29th. Very little difference. And by speed we mean how fast guys ran the 40 at the combine. Perhaps timed speed isn't the best way to judge explosiveness of an offensive player. Aaron Jones ran a mediocre 40 time but few would argue that he's not an explosive player. I'm not saying Jeremiah's numbers are wrong. Just not very relevant.

“Timed Speed”, “Separation”, “Catching The Ball”, “Making Plays After The Catch” etc etc

This Group is trash outside of Adams and was why PFF has the corp including Adams as 26th. Without Adams it’s the “Worst In The NFL”

Everyone in the world knows the Packers receiving Corp is a major weaknesses.

[RashanGary]

“Timed Speed”, “Separation”, “Catching The Ball”, “Making Plays After The Catch” etc etc

This Group is trash outside of Adams and was why PFF has the corp including Adams as 26th. Without Adams it’s the “Worst In The NFL”

Everyone in the world knows the Packers receiving Corp is a major weaknesses.

Adams, Lazard, MVS, EQ and Funchess have a decent chance to shut you up. And I know you're a packer fan, so you're hoping they do.

[RashanGary]

Lazard gonna be Kenny Golladay the second! We gonna have two legit #1s and three solid #3s! One of the best WR corps in the NFL!

[texaspackerbacker]

Adams, Lazard, MVS, EQ and Funchess have a decent chance to shut you up. And I know you're a packer fan, so you're hoping they do.

I agree with you, and you got the order about right too.

[Joemailman]

Although it's not a great unit, there is plenty or reason to expect some improvement. Right down the line.

Adams - Missed 4 games with a turf toe injury and wasn't 100% his 1st game back. A healthy Adams will be an impact player every week.

Lazard - His relatively modest numbers were achieved in just 11 games as we was not targeted 1st 5 weeks. Should be better as Rodgers targets him more.

ESB: Should have little trouble being an upgrade over Allison.

Funchess: A clear upgrade over Kumerow.

MVS: The big question mark. Was off to a good start before his injury and then disappeared. Rodgers seemed to lose confidence in him. Probably doesn't have the ball skills to be a consistent threat, but his speed has to be respected.

This unit may not have a true #2, but the depth isn't bad.

[Bretsky]

Lazard gonna be Kenny Golladay the second! We gonna have two legit #1s and three solid #3s! One of the best WR corps in the NFL!

OMG

I'm away for a bit and return to you binge drinking

Golliday is prime time. Lizard can't carry his jock strap. Just hoping the Lizard can develop into a 3 some day. Hopefully James Jones Like. A #4 on a team with good WR's.

[Bretsky]

Although it's not a great unit, there is plenty or reason to expect some improvement. Right down the line.

Adams - Missed 4 games with a turf toe injury and wasn't 100% his 1st game back. A healthy Adams will be an impact player every week.

Lazard - His relatively modest numbers were achieved in just 11 games as we was not targeted 1st 5 weeks. Should be better as Rodgers targets him more.

ESB: Should have little trouble being an upgrade over Allison.

Funchess: A clear upgrade over Kumerow.

MVS: The big question mark. Was off to a good start before his injury and then disappeared. Rodgers seemed to lose confidence in him. Probably doesn't have the ball skills to be a consistent threat, but his speed has to be respected.

This unit may not have a true #2, but the depth isn't bad.



We should have a #1 and a bunch of 3/4's. Better than last year though

[wist43]

I think a lot of the problem was Rodgers... whenever they showed all22, guys were open, but Rodgers was hyper-focused on Adams.

Rodgers will be gone after the '21 season though, so develop the young guys and see what ya got.

[texaspackerbacker]

Bullshit to the max, Wist.

[pbmax]

OMG

I'm away for a bit and return to you binge drinking

Golliday is prime time. Lizard can't carry his jock strap. Just hoping the Lizard can develop into a 3 some day. Hopefully James Jones Like. A #4 on a team with good WR's.

He was joking.

[pbmax]

I think a lot of the problem was Rodgers... whenever they showed all22, guys were open, but Rodgers was hyper-focused on Adams.

Rodgers will be gone after the '21 season though, so develop the young guys and see what ya got.

This is the problem with a vet QB. Its one of the hallmarks of "things won't end well" QB careers (unless you are damn Elway).

They need to corral this to help the offense. Brady talked about doing this too, just rejecting certain WR as not trustworthy. You need receivers they trust and you have to get them to bend too.

Flower Power got a run game last year (it was more inside than he would prefer but still) but Rodgers was running a lot of the extended offense (11 personnel) especially when they were behind (see all games in California).

I still am holding a grudge against the big slot personnel preference. Remember this pre-dates LaFleur (see 3 WR draft) and Flower Power has used small receivers before. I hold Gute responsible for this poor choice in personnel acquisition.

[RashanGary]

I do expect lazard, MVS and EQ to have the best years of their careers and AR to have a huge return to glory year.

[texaspackerbacker]

+ 1, RG. And don't forget Aaron Jones having a stellar contract season.

I'm not nearly as optimistic about the D, though.

[Radagast]

The GB offense now, even with Rodgers at QB, will be geared more to the running game. Jones, Dillon, and Williams I predict will platoon at RB and I believe will set the pace of the offense. That said, defenses will have to pay more respect to the run. This should take some of the pressure off the passing game. WRs should do better this season, but I still feel that personal changes at WR are not finished.

[ThunderDan]

Packers were 42/58 run/pass in 2019.
49ers were 51/49 run/pass in 2019.

Most teams are running around 1,000 plays a season.

If the Packers got to a more 50/50 split we are talking 5 to 6 running plays more per game.

[RashanGary]

Packers were 42/58 run/pass in 2019.
49ers were 51/49 run/pass in 2019.

Most teams are running around 1,000 plays a season.

If the Packers got to a more 50/50 split we are talking 5 to 6 running plays more per game.


I would expect something like 46/54 run/pass. I do expect the pass game to be more productive. Lazard and MVS both in second year in the offense and both should be on a more common page with 12 from day 1.

Funchess and EQ are kind of bonuses. This years Lazard and MVS are already paper upgrades over last years versions of themselves.

With the running back depth being improved, the WRs being more experienced and game ready. The OL being more in tune with the offense. I will be surprised if they're not better in every way.

[mraynrand]

Improved first down running will be the key to the entire offense.

[RashanGary]

Improved first down running will be the key to the entire offense.

Pretty much. Domino effect from there.

The gains in the WR group could make for an equally potent run and pass attack. The offense has a chance to be pretty good.

[pbmax]

Improved first down running will be the key to the entire offense.

I am sorry, did you say stop running on first down so much? :D

[mraynrand]

I am sorry, did you say stop running on first down so much? :D

While that's funny, there's probably some truth to it, but from the opposite angle: If you show you can run on first down, you strengthen play action significantly, so you pass more and run less.

[pbmax]

While that's funny, there's probably some truth to it, but from the opposite angle: If you show you can run on first down, you strengthen play action significantly, so you pass more and run less.

Agreed. But I would like them to do whatever works best on first down and then be free to break tendency or go away from that on second down.

Unless its third and short, 3rd downs are always schemed for passing (even 75/25 split would be weird to see here). Unless you run like the 49ers or Titans.

I just don't see this line winning at a better rate on runs on first down in 2020. Getting Taylor the start at RG might help. But Ricky Bobby at RT might offset that.

[texaspackerbacker]

Improved first down running will be the key to the entire offense.

No no no. Running on first down is basically wasting a down most of the time. Even if you gain 3 or 4 or even 5 yards, 2nd and 5, 6, or 7 is not significantly easier than 2nd and 10. The way to use the running game is as a change of pace - pass, pass, pass, then when they get conditioned to the pass, bust a quick opener for a big gain.

[mraynrand]

No no no. Running on first down is basically wasting a down most of the time. Even if you gain 3 or 4 or even 5 yards, 2nd and 5, 6, or 7 is not significantly easier than 2nd and 10. The way to use the running game is as a change of pace - pass, pass, pass, then when they get conditioned to the pass, bust a quick opener for a big gain.
....


If you show you can run on first down, you strengthen play action significantly, so you pass more and run less.

[bobblehead]

No no no. Running on first down is basically wasting a down most of the time. Even if you gain 3 or 4 or even 5 yards, 2nd and 5, 6, or 7 is not significantly easier than 2nd and 10. The way to use the running game is as a change of pace - pass, pass, pass, then when they get conditioned to the pass, bust a quick opener for a big gain.

yep. Exactly how SF owned us twice.

[ThunderDan]

No no no. Running on first down is basically wasting a down most of the time. Even if you gain 3 or 4 or even 5 yards, 2nd and 5, 6, or 7 is not significantly easier than 2nd and 10. The way to use the running game is as a change of pace - pass, pass, pass, then when they get conditioned to the pass, bust a quick opener for a big gain.

Of course as usual you are wrong.

From PhD Football, on 2 and 10 you roughly make a first down 55% of the time.
On 2nd and 8 the chances are 60% or 5% greater.
On 2nd and 5 the chances jump to roughly 75%.

[Radagast]

A year of experience with HC LaFleur's Offense System will translate into better play, especially for the O-Line that does the primary blocking. Many offensive starters are also playing out contracts or looking for contract extensions. Aaron Jones and David Bakhtiari lead the group. Additionally, rookie RB A.J. Dillon will supply fresh legs to reduce the wear and tear on the RB corp. WRs Adams, Funchess, and Lazard / MVS will all need to perform better in 2020. The word is consistency ! The real difference maker, IMO, will need to come from TE pass completions and blocking.

We all know what Rodgers can do with a football. The question this season as last season is weather receivers can get open for him to pass to. He does not want to hold the ball waiting for someone to pass to as he runs for his life. More timing patterns and better execution could see large gains.

[ThunderDan]

So if you need to make 4 first downs to kick a FG here are you chances based on 2nd down distance percentages above:
2nd and 10 - roughly 9%
2nd and 8 - roughly 13%
2nd and 5 - roughly 32%

[Radagast]

So if you need to make 4 first downs to kick a FG here are you chances based on 2nd down distance percentages above:
2nd and 10 - roughly 9%
2nd and 8 - roughly 13%
2nd and 5 - roughly 32%

Great post TD !

The trend that the NFL has supported with rules changes over multiple decades has been toward the pass over the run. It's more exciting to watch footballs in the air over hard to follow running plays. Running the ball may not be sexy, but it can still offer a more safe offensive course. Wearing down defenses with good blocking/running can result in out of gas defenders as fresher RBs are platooned in/out.

Grind it out smash mouth football is not as popular as aerial displays, but if done right can be very effective.

[texaspackerbacker]

Of course as usual you are wrong.

From PhD Football, on 2 and 10 you roughly make a first down 55% of the time.
On 2nd and 8 the chances are 60% or 5% greater.
On 2nd and 5 the chances jump to roughly 75%.

If the chance on 2 and 10 you roughly make a first down 55% of the time, then presumably, it is significantly greater if you pass on first down. The chance for a bigger gain is much greater too.

As far as the reality of what we're actually gonna do is concerned, I suppose RG's 46/54 run/pass thing is about right. However, that as well as the 42/58 from last season are skewed by game situations - protecting a lead or whatever. I'm just saying what I wish - virtually no first down running, pass first, etc. - a helluva lot closer to Bill Walsh or Air Coryell than to Woody Hayes. "Grind it out smash mouth football" is definitely not the way to go. The best hope we have is that LaFleur again has the good sense to subordinate his ego and go with what works best given the personnel he has.

[ThunderDan]

If the chance on 2 and 10 you roughly make a first down 55% of the time, then presumably, it is significantly greater if you pass on first down. The chance for a bigger gain is much greater too.

As far as the reality of what we're actually gonna do is concerned, I suppose RG's 46/54 run/pass thing is about right. However, that as well as the 42/58 from last season are skewed by game situations - protecting a lead or whatever. I'm just saying what I wish - virtually no first down running, pass first, etc. - a helluva lot closer to Bill Walsh or Air Coryell than to Woody Hayes. "Grind it out smash mouth football" is definitely not the way to go. The best hope we have is that LaFleur again has the good sense to subordinate his ego and go with what works best given the personnel he has.

The stats have nothing to do with what plays you are running. You could either run or pass. It has nothing to do with smash mouth football.

A completed pass for 5 yards or a run for 5 yards on 1st down makes it 20% more likely to get a 1st down than if you throw an incompletion or get your run stuffed for no gain.