No decision on Williams... Wahle back in GB?

[RashanGary]

Idle, he's saying you don't replace them unless someone is better, no matter how much the price of KGB or the discount of the replacement. I disagree with that. Even if the young guy isn't "better" at this point, he might be close and he has upside to be better the following 5 years as KGB declines on top of the 7 million dollar savings.

With this "spend it because it's going no were" logic, there would be no reason to not up the anty for 99 because we don't have anyone better at rushing the passer from the interior and the price doens't matter.

I'm saying price is always an issue. It's not jsut the quility of the player, but the quality of the player in relation to his salary and that even applys to the Packers right now becuase they won't be in such good shape if they forget that concept.

[twoseven]

Idle, he's saying you don't replace them unless someone is better, no matter how much the price of KGB or the discount of the replacement. I disagree with that. Even if the young guy isn't "better" at this point, he might be close and he has upside to be better the following 5 years as KGB declines on top of the 7 million dollar savings.

With this "spend it because it's going no were" logic, there would be no reason to not up the anty for 99 because we don't have anyone better at rushing the passer from the interior and the price doens't matter.

I'm saying price is always an issue. It's not jsut the quility of the player, but the quality of the player in relation to his salary and that even applys to the Packers right now becuase they won't be in such good shape if they forget that concept.

Seriously, you need to stop rambling. Did you watch or listen to any of what Clemens had to say today, because you're reminding me of him right now.

What was our record this year Justin? How close were we to the SB Justin? Why in God's name do you take a step backwards at 3rd down DE (KGB) and lose 8 sacks if money is not a big problem, especially when you are ready to win right now, not 2-3 years from now? Are we rebuilding at 13-3?

Stop trying to tell others what I am saying when you don't seem too keen on it to begin with. KGB is already couting against our cap, CW is NOT, so your sarcastic assumption (yet another one) that throwing 6 mil a year at him is a no brainer is NOT correct.

Cut KGB now, gain 7 mil more of cap space and put who exactly in his place? I'm sure that will really help our chances next year, considering our pass rush was already struggling badly last half of 2007. Oh, but we'll have even more money in the cap and a young hopeful in his place that might be ready in a couple of years. Pure genius.

'You don't replace unless someone is better'? Stop generalizing, I was being specific. Don't cut KGB THIS offseason because we will not find a replacement for his 8 sacks out there, his money is not hurting us THIS year with our big cap, and we are geared to get after the SB THIS year, so why the hell would we stick someone less effective in his place?! Get one more year out of him, then cut his ass or trade him. Get it through your head please, I AM TALKING ABOUT 2008, KGB, and WHY I THINK IT IS UNWISE TO CUT HIM THIS SUMMER VERSUS NEXT SUMMER.

[the_idle_threat]

My 2 cents:

It's too early to know for sure that KGB's production can't be replaced. We have to go into the offseason with that assumption, because nobody has stepped up yet, but there's still the draft and training camp to bring in/develop challengers for his job. This does mean there's no hurry to cut him even though he's a bit overpaid. He's not dramatically so given the rising market (i.e. rising cap), and after the Super Bowl this year, I'll bet pass rush brings an even higher premium.

So we see if a draft pick or another young guy (e.g. Jason Hunter) can come into camp and push for KGB's job. If that happens, then maybe we ask him to renegotiate or cut him. If there's nobody behind him to give us the production, then I agree with twoseven that if you have the money to pay him, you don't just cut him for purely financial reasons and leave your team worse off when they're ready to compete for the Super Bowl.

[twoseven]

My 2 cents:

It's too early to know for sure that KGB's production can't be replaced. We have to go into the offseason with that assumption, because nobody has stepped up yet, but there's still the draft and training camp to bring in/develop challengers for his job. This does mean there's no hurry to cut him even though he's a bit overpaid. He's not dramatically so given the rising market (i.e. rising cap), and after the Super Bowl this year, I'll bet pass rush brings an even higher premium.

So we see if a draft pick or another young guy (e.g. Jason Hunter) can come into camp and push for KGB's job. If that happens, then maybe we ask him to renegotiate or cut him. If there's nobody behind him to give us the production, then I agree with twoseven that if you have the money to pay him, you don't just cut him for purely financial reasons and leave your team worse off when they're ready to compete for the Super Bowl.

One more reason NOT to cut KGB right now..if we cut KGB this off season you can bet dollars to doughnuts he's wearing purple and coming off the edge after Brett or AR in September. MN has even more cap than we do and they need pass rushing DEs desperately. Cut KGB, he'll be a Viking. Bet on it.

[the_idle_threat]

My 2 cents:

It's too early to know for sure that KGB's production can't be replaced. We have to go into the offseason with that assumption, because nobody has stepped up yet, but there's still the draft and training camp to bring in/develop challengers for his job. This does mean there's no hurry to cut him even though he's a bit overpaid. He's not dramatically so given the rising market (i.e. rising cap), and after the Super Bowl this year, I'll bet pass rush brings an even higher premium.

So we see if a draft pick or another young guy (e.g. Jason Hunter) can come into camp and push for KGB's job. If that happens, then maybe we ask him to renegotiate or cut him. If there's nobody behind him to give us the production, then I agree with twoseven that if you have the money to pay him, you don't just cut him for purely financial reasons and leave your team worse off when they're ready to compete for the Super Bowl.

One more reason NOT to cut KGB right now..if we cut KGB this off season you can bet dollars to doughnuts he's wearing purple and coming off the edge after Brett or AR in September. MN has even more cap than we do and they need pass rushing DEs desperately. Cut KGB, he'll be a Viking. Bet on it.

I lean toward keeping KGB too (did you miss where I said I agree with you?) but I'm not married to the idea. I think we keep him through the summer, and if he's better than his competition, we keep him for another year. Even if he's a bit overpaid (i.e. paid starter's money to come off the bench) it's a good enough deal if he produces and we can afford to pay him.

However, if he gets beat out in camp, then he's not a difference maker and the Vikings can have him. You can't hold onto guys who are not earning their money just to play keep-away from other teams. We'll face better pass rushers than KGB. I'm not scared of that.

If it's that big of a concern, then maybe you try to trade him for something cheap, like a conditional pick, just to control where he goes.

[RashanGary]

twoseven, I didn't tell people what you said. I repeated it and paraphrased it quite well.

I'll still agree to disagree on principle that you keeping KGB and Bubba is a no brainer because we don't have anyone better. That logic completely ignores the price vs production value concept that drives competitiveness in the NFL becuase of the CBA.

No amount of tossing around "We're almost there" fan rhetoric is going to change the basic economic concept of oppertunity cost and just because we have money now does't eliminate it either.

[RashanGary]

Get it through your head please, I AM TALKING ABOUT 2008, KGB, and WHY I THINK IT IS UNWISE TO CUT HIM THIS SUMMER VERSUS NEXT SUMMER.

Well, before you go shouting like an angry little kid, why don't you write what you mean next time.

This time you said high priced players like KGB as if to include many (if not any) high priced players on their decline and you only related it to the money we had as if to imply having money means spending to say it's spent.

[RashanGary]

And for the record, on the KGB topic, if I had to make the decision with my common fan knowledge I'd keep him too. Just not for the logic of having money and not worrying about spending it. I'd keep him becuase I think he's still very good and slightly overpaid, but not bad enough to cut him.

So I never argued with you about KGB specifically. I argued your logic for it. I thought that was pretty clear. I don't know why you're even trying to prove something I never disagreed with anyway. If you came out in the first place and said KGB's really good at what he does and a one more year, might be a little high priced but probably worth it, I would have jumped right on board with you. When you go through a rationalization involving having money in your pocket so why not spend it, I start to object because that very idea gets tossed around here way to liberally as if it has no concequence. It was the principle. Plus, you're a good new poster. I just wanted to get my opinion out there about fiscal responsiblity to a newby. I've sort of quit talking about it because the regs and I have gone round and round on the same issue too often so it's gotten boring.

[Bretsky]

I'd also keep KGB, even if he is slightly overpaid...which is what I think he is now.

With every passing day we hear nothing, it becomes more likely CWilliams is out the door. Unless TT decides to tag him for the purpose of keeping him for one more year or trying to pressure him to a deal, he's probably good as gone IMO.

I sure would like to see a starting OG brought in here though and then we can let all the youngies fight it out for the other spot.

[KYPack]

He's a one trick pony, but it's a helluva trick. Several teams have spent years trying to find a 3rd down rusher and have never done it.

I once was pissed at KGB, that's a ton of $ for a one down player and he'ds getting 3 down money. But man, QB pressure is a rare commodity and if that's what we gotta pay to get it, that's what we gotta pay.

Maybe Jenkins will get his "3rd down off the edge" act together.

[GrnBay007]

Haven't read all the Wahle stuff. Was this posted?

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=717534&format=print

"They're a real class organization. I've got a lot of respect for that franchise."

[GrnBay007]

or this.....?




Veteran guard Mike Wahle to meet with Hawks

By José Miguel Romero

Seattle Times staff reporter



Guard Mike Wahle, released Monday by Carolina, made the Pro Bowl in 2005.

Mike Wahle, a one-time Pro Bowl left guard, was on his way to Seattle on Tuesday to meet with the Seahawks today, the team confirmed.

Wahle, 30, was one of two former starters released by the Carolina Panthers in a cost-cutting move Monday after three seasons there. He's a 10-year NFL veteran who was originally selected in the second round of the supplemental draft in 1998 by the Green Bay Packers.

The NFL free-agency period won't start until next month, but Wahle can talk to the Seahawks now because he was released and does not have a contract that is expiring. The 6-foot-6, 304-pound lineman could address the Seahawks' need to make improvements on their offensive line, particularly in run blocking.

Second-year pro Rob Sims started every game of the 2007 season at left guard and struggled at times. In the second half of the season, Sims was replaced by veteran Floyd Womack during games.

The Seahawks have yet to find a satisfiable replacement for Steve Hutchinson, who left in free agency for the Minnesota Vikings before the 2006 season. Wahle, who was born in Portland and went to high school in Southern California, has missed just three regular-season games in his entire career.

[KYPack]

Haven't read all the Wahle stuff. Was this posted?

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=717534&format=print

"They're a real class organization. I've got a lot of respect for that franchise."

No, but check the Wahle/Morgan thread below.

Patler posted some stuff about the Packer/Wahle rift when he was cut by us. His cap number was over 11 mil that time!

(In the JSO article you posted the link for, they don't list Juice Coston as one of the guards.)

[RashanGary]

We'll see how it goes. He's 31. Our guys are 23, 24, 25. . . .


If he passes a physical and is close to the player that left here 3 years ago, you'd have to think he'd be an upgrade over the last guard on our roster at the very least. At best, he's an instant starter and makes our whole line better.

Clifton/Colledge/Barbre
Wahle/Colledge/Barbre
Wells/Spitz
Spitz/Coston/Moll
Tauscher/Moll


I don't think it will be as good as the great lines of the early 2000's, but it's certainly deeper and somewhat prepared for the retirement of the OT's as opposed to how unprepared we were for the exit of the OG's a few years ago.

[twoseven]

My 2 cents:

It's too early to know for sure that KGB's production can't be replaced. We have to go into the offseason with that assumption, because nobody has stepped up yet, but there's still the draft and training camp to bring in/develop challengers for his job. This does mean there's no hurry to cut him even though he's a bit overpaid. He's not dramatically so given the rising market (i.e. rising cap), and after the Super Bowl this year, I'll bet pass rush brings an even higher premium.

So we see if a draft pick or another young guy (e.g. Jason Hunter) can come into camp and push for KGB's job. If that happens, then maybe we ask him to renegotiate or cut him. If there's nobody behind him to give us the production, then I agree with twoseven that if you have the money to pay him, you don't just cut him for purely financial reasons and leave your team worse off when they're ready to compete for the Super Bowl.

One more reason NOT to cut KGB right now..if we cut KGB this off season you can bet dollars to doughnuts he's wearing purple and coming off the edge after Brett or AR in September. MN has even more cap than we do and they need pass rushing DEs desperately. Cut KGB, he'll be a Viking. Bet on it.

I lean toward keeping KGB too (did you miss where I said I agree with you?) but I'm not married to the idea. I think we keep him through the summer, and if he's better than his competition, we keep him for another year. Even if he's a bit overpaid (i.e. paid starter's money to come off the bench) it's a good enough deal if he produces and we can afford to pay him.

However, if he gets beat out in camp, then he's not a difference maker and the Vikings can have him. You can't hold onto guys who are not earning their money just to play keep-away from other teams. We'll face better pass rushers than KGB. I'm not scared of that.

If it's that big of a concern, then maybe you try to trade him for something cheap, like a conditional pick, just to control where he goes.

Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you one bit. Your line about what happened in the SB bringing an even higher premium on pass rushers seemed the perfect sedgway into what I think the Vikings might do if we turn him loose.

Personally, I do not want to see a still effective KGB playing for MN. Their dline is already pretty damn good, leave for a pass rushing DE.