ALL PACKER TEAM

[Patler]

I would make just 2 changes from B's list. I would take Jerry Kramer over Thurston. I would also take Ron Kramer over Paul Coffman. Toss-up between Green and Hornung.

I agree with Joe about Jerry Kramer over Thurston and Ron Kramer over Paul Coffman.

I disagree, however, about the alleged tossup between Green and Hornung. Green had much more speed and power than Hornung.

Hornung had the added advantage of being able to place-kick and performing the halfback option pass well but Green was the better runner, IMO.

I've never heard of Ron Kramer

You've never heard of Ron Kramer?! And you call yourself a Packer fan!

Hang your head in shame and turn in your cheesehead!

OPF, How do we put up with fans like that?
The value of Bretsky's opinions has just plummeted!

[GrnBay007]

The value of Bretsky's opinions has just plummeted!

Stick him in the Rat Trap for a week!!!!

[DonHutson]

Had no clue you were that young.

Gee, I think I need to print that out and stick it on the fridge!

FB - William Henderson ???????????????

No Don, Even Bill would admit Jim Taylor is the all-time FB.

Undoubtedly true, but again I'm only going back to '79. So Henderson beats out guys like Barty Smith or Jesse Clark.

[DonHutson]

The value of Bretsky's opinions has just plummeted!

Stick him in the Rat Trap for a week!!!!

I say he has to read Jerry Kramer's "Instant Replay" and post a two page book report.

[motife]

Jackie Harris was one of the best down the field TE to play for Green Bay, other than Keith Jackson's two year stint.

Coffman though had 42 TD's vs. Harris's 25 TD's, which puts Coffman up there with Kellen Winslow and Keith Jackson.

Coffman 11 yrs : 339 4340 12.8avg(!) 42 TD's
Harris 12 yrs : 393 4410 11.2 avg 25 TD's. (GB, TB, Tenn, Dall)
Jackson 9 yrs : 441 5,283 12.0avg 49 TD's (Phil, Mia, GB) 11 of the TD's in GB
Winslow 9 years : 541 6,741 12.5avg 45 TD's

Don't short change Marv Fleming either. He was as good as Ron Kramer in my opinion. However, not very good stats for Fleming. Dr. Z thinks Ron Kramer should be in the Hall of Fame, but his stats are NOT that good.

Lombardi's players all have this aura around them that clouds the vision.

The Packer's defense, coach, and running game won them the 5 NFL championships in 6 appearances from 1960-1967.

[Scott Campbell]

OPF, How do we put up with fans like that?
The value of Bretsky's opinions has just plummeted!

Well, you can't fall out of the basement.

[motife]

For historical TE's with over 4,000 career yards (btw, WHY isn't Pete Retzlaff in the Hall of Fame? That has to be one of the biggest HOF snubs). :

most yards in a career :

1 Shannon Sharpe 14 yrs 815 rec 10060 yds 12.3 avg 62 TD 13.1 TD/rec 719 yds/yr
2 Ozzie Newsome 13 yrs 662 rec 7980 yds 12.1 avg 47 TD 14.1 TD/rec 614 yds/yr
3 Jackie Smith 16 yrs 480 rec 7918 yds 16.5 avg 40 TD 12.0 TD/rec 495 yds/yr
4 Pete Retzlaff 11 yrs 452 rec 7412 yds 16.4 avg 47 TD 9.6 TD/rec 674 yds/yr
5 Kellen Winslow 9 yrs 541 rec 6741 yds 12.5 avg 45 TD 12.0 TD/rec 749 yds/yr
6 Todd Christensen 10 yrs 461 rec 5872 yds 12.7 avg 41 TD 11.2 TD/rec 587 yds/yr
7 Mike Ditka 12 yrs 427 rec 5812 yds 13.6 avg 43 TD 9.9 TD/rec 484 yds/yr
8 Riley Odoms 12 yrs 396 rec 5755 yds 14.5 avg 41 TD 9.7 TD/rec 480 yds/yr
9 Ben Coates 10 yrs 499 rec 5555 yds 11.1 avg 50 TD 10.0 TD/rec 556 yds/yr
10 Rich Caster 13 yrs 322 rec 5515 yds 17.1 avg 45 TD 7.2 TD/rec 424 yds/yr


TD's in a career :

1 Shannon Sharpe 14 yrs 815 rec 10060 yds 12.3 avg 62 TD 13.1 TD/rec 719 yds/yr
2 Jerry Smith 13 yrs 421 rec 5496 yds 13.1 avg 60 TD 7.0 TD/rec 423 yds/yr
3 Wesley Walls 15 yrs 450 rec 5291 yds 11.8 avg 54 TD 8.3 TD/rec 353 yds/yr
4 Dave Casper 11 yrs 378 rec 5216 yds 13.8 avg 52 TD 7.3 TD/rec 474 yds/yr
5 Ben Coates 10 yrs 499 rec 5555 yds 11.1 avg 50 TD 10.0 TD/rec 556 yds/yr
6 Keith Jackson 9 yrs 441 rec 5283 yds 12.0 avg 49 TD 9.0 TD/rec 587 yds/yr
7 Raymond Chester 12 yrs 364 rec 5013 yds 13.8 avg 48 TD 7.6 TD/rec 418 yds/yr
8 Pete Retzlaff 11 yrs 452 rec 7412 yds 16.4 avg 47 TD 9.6 TD/rec 674 yds/yr
9 Ozzie Newsome 13 yrs 662 rec 7980 yds 12.1 avg 47 TD 14.1 TD/rec 614 yds/yr
10 Rich Caster 13 yrs 322 rec 5515 yds 17.1 avg 45 TD 7.2 TD/rec 424 yds/yr


yards per reception :

1 Rich Caster 13 yrs 322 rec 5515 yds 17.1 avg 45 TD 7.2 TD/rec 424 yds/yr
2 Jackie Smith 16 yrs 480 rec 7918 yds 16.5 avg 40 TD 12.0 TD/rec 495 yds/yr
3 Pete Retzlaff 11 yrs 452 rec 7412 yds 16.4 avg 47 TD 9.6 TD/rec 674 yds/yr
4 Dave Kocourek 9 yrs 249 rec 4090 yds 16.4 avg 24 TD 10.4 TD/rec 454 yds/yr
5 John Mackey 10 yrs 331 rec 5236 yds 15.8 avg 38 TD 8.7 TD/rec 524 yds/yr
6 Milt Morin 10 yrs 271 rec 4208 yds 15.5 avg 16 TD 16.9 TD/rec 421 yds/yr
7 Bob Trumpy 10 yrs 298 rec 4600 yds 15.4 avg 35 TD 8.5 TD/rec 460 yds/yr
8 Jerome Barkum 12 yrs 326 rec 4789 yds 14.7 avg 40 TD 8.2 TD/rec 399 yds/yr
9 Riley Odoms 12 yrs 396 rec 5755 yds 14.5 avg 41 TD 9.7 TD/rec 480 yds/yr
10 Jimmie Giles 13 yrs 350 rec 5084 yds 14.5 avg 41 TD 8.5 TD/rec 391 yds/yr


TD's every X# of receptions :

1 Jerry Smith 13 yrs 421 rec 5496 yds 13.1 avg 60 TD 7.0 TD/rec 423 yds/yr
2 Rich Caster 13 yrs 322 rec 5515 yds 17.1 avg 45 TD 7.2 TD/rec 424 yds/yr
3 Dave Casper 11 yrs 378 rec 5216 yds 13.8 avg 52 TD 7.3 TD/rec 474 yds/yr
4 Raymond Chester 12 yrs 364 rec 5013 yds 13.8 avg 48 TD 7.6 TD/rec 418 yds/yr
5 Paul Coffman 11 yrs 339 rec 4340 yds 12.8 avg 42 TD 8.1 TD/rec 395 yds/yr
6 Jerome Barkum 12 yrs 326 rec 4789 yds 14.7 avg 40 TD 8.2 TD/rec 399 yds/yr
7 Wesley Walls 15 yrs 450 rec 5291 yds 11.8 avg 54 TD 8.3 TD/rec 353 yds/yr
8 Bob Trumpy 10 yrs 298 rec 4600 yds 15.4 avg 35 TD 8.5 TD/rec 460 yds/yr
9 Jimmie Giles 13 yrs 350 rec 5084 yds 14.5 avg 41 TD 8.5 TD/rec 391 yds/yr
10 John Mackey 10 yrs 331 rec 5236 yds 15.8 avg 38 TD 8.7 TD/rec 524 yds/yr


avg yards per year :

1 Kellen Winslow 9 yrs 541 rec 6741 yds 12.5 avg 45 TD 12.0 TD/rec 749 yds/yr
2 Shannon Sharpe 14 yrs 815 rec 10060 yds 12.3 avg 62 TD 13.1 TD/rec 719 yds/yr
3 Pete Retzlaff 11 yrs 452 rec 7412 yds 16.4 avg 47 TD 9.6 TD/rec 674 yds/yr
4 Ozzie Newsome 13 yrs 662 rec 7980 yds 12.1 avg 47 TD 14.1 TD/rec 614 yds/yr
5 Todd Christensen 10 yrs 461 rec 5872 yds 12.7 avg 41 TD 11.2 TD/rec 587 yds/yr
6 Keith Jackson 9 yrs 441 rec 5283 yds 12.0 avg 49 TD 9.0 TD/rec 587 yds/yr
7 Frank Wycheck 9 yrs 505 rec 5126 yds 10.2 avg 28 TD 18.0 TD/rec 570 yds/yr
8 Ben Coates 10 yrs 499 rec 5555 yds 11.1 avg 50 TD 10.0 TD/rec 556 yds/yr
9 Freddie Jones 8 yrs 404 rec 4232 yds 10.5 avg 22 TD 18.4 TD/rec 529 yds/yr
10 Mark Bavaro 9 yrs 351 rec 4733 yds 13.5 avg 39 TD 9.0 TD/rec 526 yds/yr

[motife]

I never heard of Ron Kramer.

As mentioned earlier, Dr. Z at SI thinks Ron Kramer's absence from the NFL HOF is one of the Top 10 snubs. But, his stats are NOT that good except for yards per reception.

10 years 229 rec, 3,272 ydrs, 14.3 avg, 16 TD's

I'd say Pete Retzlaff and Todd Christiansen are far more deserving at the TE position. More deserving even than Charlie Sanders, who was inducted last year.

For Ron Kramer, after 4 straight Pro Bowl years with GB 1961-64, all over 30 rec and 500 yds, averaging 16/17 yards per reception, he was traded to Detroit where his career plummeted, except for 1966. His simply outstanding game breaking yards per reception were probably his biggest claim to greatness.

[Patler]

In Kramer's time, the NFL was more of a running game. Comparing receptions is a lot misleading, just as it is for wide receivers of that era. When ever you look at players from that era you also must remember:

Until 1961, a season was only 12 games
from '61 until '78, a season was only 14 games.
Many players lost a season or two to military service. I believe Kramer lost a full season and part of another.

As a result, while Kramer was with the Packers from 1957 through 1964, he only played in 89 games for them. Today, during a similar period, a player would be available for nearly 50% more games.

Kramer, like John Mackey, would flat out run over DBs. Lots of memories of him carrying one or two DBs for 5 or 10 yards until they could trip him up. His yardage came from yards after the catch. Also, a very effective blocker.

On another point, I agree that Marv Flemming is an unjustly overlooked Packer. For years and years, he was the answer to a popular trivia question, "Which NFL player has played in (or won) the most Super Bowls?" He played in I and II with the Packers, and VI, VII and VIII with the Dolphins. Not too shabby being in 5 of the first 8 Super Bowls and winning four of them!

[KYPack]

I never heard of Ron Kramer.

As mentioned earlier, Dr. Z at SI thinks Ron Kramer's absence from the NFL HOF is one of the Top 10 snubs. But, his stats are NOT that good except for yards per reception.

10 years 229 rec, 3,272 ydrs, 14.3 avg, 16 TD's

I'd say Pete Retzlaff and Todd Christiansen are far more deserving at the TE position. More deserving even than Charlie Sanders, who was inducted last year.

For Ron Kramer, after 4 straight Pro Bowl years with GB 1961-64, all over 30 rec and 500 yds, averaging 16/17 yards per reception, he was traded to Detroit where his career plummeted, except for 1966. His simply outstanding game breaking yards per reception were probably his biggest claim to greatness.

That image is very appropriate. In order to get to Paul Hornung, you had to talk to Ron Kramer. Ron is one of Paul's very closest friends to this date.
Marv Fleming could not lace Ron's shoes, as a pass catcher, blocker, running AC or any facet of the game.

The great Packer TE's you name were fantastic and a couple of 'em had btter individual season than Ron ever did. But Ron Kramer was a better TE than even those great players.

He is one of the top 2 or 3 blocking TE's in the history or the game. A better blocker than Ditka, Mackey, or any of 'em. Lombardi said he was like a license to put 12 men on offense. He could block with the ferocity and effectiveness of a top rate tackle. He had tremendous games in Championships.As good a blocker as Ron was, he was an offensive threat as a reciever that occupied a LB, a safety, or both. Ron had eye popping runs with 1-3 guys hanging on his back, just like Ditka or Mackey

Ron is such a great player, it's a pity his legacy is really lost to modern fans. Ron was as good a player as Taylor, Starr, Hornung, Gregg, all of 'em. He has been lost to Packer history because he went to the Lions, the black hole of NFL players.

It's ironic, both Jerry and Ron Kramer should be in the NFL Hall of Fame, no doubt in my mind.

[motife]

He is one of the top 2 or 3 blocking TE's in the history or the game. A better blocker than Ditka, Mackey, or any of 'em. Lombardi said he was like a license to put 12 men on offense. He could block with the ferocity and effectiveness of a top rate tackle. He had tremendous games in Championships.As good a blocker as Ron was, he was an offensive threat as a reciever that occupied a LB, a safety, or both. Ron had eye popping runs with 1-3 guys hanging on his back, just like Ditka or Mackey

Ron is such a great player, it's a pity his legacy is really lost to modern fans. Ron was as good a player as Taylor, Starr, Hornung, Gregg, all of 'em. He has been lost to Packer history because he went to the Lions, the black hole of NFL players.

good stuff, thanks.

here's some more on Ron :

Family came first for Kramer
Difficult decision in 1965 changed everything
By ROB REISCHEL
SPECIAL TO PACKER PLUS
Posted: Oct. 24, 2002
Ron Kramer doesn't regret his decision one second. But oh, how he wishes circumstances could have been different.

Packers

Ron Kramer File
Packer years: 1957, 1959-'64.
Jersey number: 88.
Occupation: President of Ron Kramer Industries.
Residence: Fenton, Mich.
Packer highlights: Kramer was the fourth overall pick in the 1957 draft and went on to star at tight end during the beginning of the Packer Glory Years. He was named all-pro during Green Bay's world championship seasons of 1961 and 1962 and he was named to the Pro Bowl in 1962. Kramer, who finished his career with 299 receptions for 3,272 yards and 16 touchdowns, was inducted into the Packer Hall of Fame in 1975.

The former Green Bay Packers standout tight end had the decision of a lifetime to make before the 1965 season. His son, Kurt, had lost an eye while playing with pair of scissors. His daughter, Cassie, was terribly sick with allergies.

And Kramer's family wouldn't come to Green Bay. So the former Packers great did what he believes any family man should do - return to his.

"I would love to have stayed my whole career in Green Bay," the 67-year-old Kramer said recently. "I loved all of my teammates, and we still hang around together.

"But I look at my children today, and I'm so proud of the decision I made. If I could have played in Green Bay all those years, I would have. But I made the decision that had to be made.

"It's not noble when it comes to your family. I had to make sure the kids would be OK. And even though the marriage didn't make it, the kids and I did."

Kramer, who played out his option after the 1964 campaign, returned to Detroit to be with his family and succeeded in getting traded to Detroit to be closer to home.

Under the old Pete Rozelle Rule, the Packers were awarded a No. 1 draft choice, which they used to select fullback Jim Grabowski in 1966.

"Every time I see Grabowski, he kisses me and thanks me for letting him become part of two more championship teams," said Kramer, who played in Detroit from 1965-'67. "It was tough because my years in Detroit were awful.

"The head coach (Harry Gilmer) was the dumbest guy I ever met. People didn't come on time, and people didn't care. It was polar opposite of where I came from.

"But I did what I had to, and coach (Vince) Lombardi was great. He said, 'I understand that you have to do what you feel is right. Ican't replace you, but I'll understand whatever decision you make.' "

Kramer, who was inducted into the Packer Hall of Fame in 1975, was in the midst of a brilliant career with Green Bay at the time. The fourth overall pick of the 1957 draft out of Michigan, Kramer possessed a frightening combination of size, strength and agility.

He tore up his knee as a rookie, then spent the 1958 season as an officer in the Air Force. When he returned in 1959, though, his play skyrocketed at the same time Green Bay's did.

Between 1961-'64, Kramer caught 138 passes for 2,202 yards and 15 touchdowns. He was named all-pro in both 1961 and 1962 and was named to the Pro Bowl in '62.

In the 1961 NFL Championship Game, Kramer caught four passes for 80 yards and two touchdowns.

That marked the first of five titles Green Bay would win under Lombardi between 1961-'67.

"He was the best coach ever, and I think few would question or argue that," said Kramer, who lives in Fenton, Mich., today. "He always had you ready to go, mentally and physically.

"All you had to do was watch him and emulate him, and you'd be ready to play. Plus, he was just a tremendous teacher, very thorough. It was an honor to play for him."

Green Bay won titles in 1961-'62 and 1965-'67 under Lombardi, although most agree the 1962 team Kramer was part of was the best of them all.

That group went 20-1 (including exhibition games) and again defeated the New York Giants for the NFL championship, 16-7.

"That team was incredible," said Kramer, who finished his career with 299 receptions for 3,272 yards and 16 touchdowns. "Everybody was in their prime, everybody had a great year.

"In spite of a few rough seasons in Detroit, Kramer's great years continued after he left Green Bay.

Kramer retired after the 1967 campaign. He then worked for Paragon Steel Corp. in Detroit for 22 years, working his way up to vice president. In addition, he was an analyst for University of Michigan football until 1997, called some pre-season Detroit Lions football games and was an analyst for Big Ten football for WTBS-TV.

"I loved it," said Kramer, who has had an estimated 15 surgeries since he retired and has two new knees and a new hip. "I would watch the game, and I think I could recognize a lot more than most people because of the great training I got under Lombardi."

Kramer also began a business called Ron Kramer Industries in 1981 where he deals in specialty advertising in which a client will advertise on items such as pencils, pens and calendars.

Kramer has a "dream home" and a large chunk of land in Fenton, including a lake and a tree farm.

"It's my dream place and my utopia," he said. "It's heaven. I can't stand neighborhoods and condosand high-rises. It's just heaven."

About the only thing Kramer believes could have been more heavenly is if he'd have been able to finish his career in Green Bay, and instead of having two rings, he'd have five. But the choice he made nearly 40 years ago is one he's never looked back on.

"I'd go back and do it all over again," said Kramer, who had been living with Paul Hornung and Max McGee prior to leaving Green Bay. "I loved Green Bay, and nothing compares to the Green Bay experience anywhere.

"I still bring people up there all the time to experience it firsthand, and it's just overwhelming for them. I would have loved to spend a little more time there, but I never regret what I did for a minute."

[motife]

Ron wrote a book about his career :

http://www.amazon.com/Thats-Just-Kramer-Michigan-Lombardis/dp/1587264331

remember reading the following quote in Sport magazine during the late 1950's:

"In 1957 two Michigan exports splashed across the American scene both accompanied by terrific fanfare. One was an automobile called the Edsel. The other was a tank named Ronald John Kramer."

Dan Ewald , who has written books about such Michigan notables as George Kell, Sparky Anderson, and Bo Schembechler has provided us with an excellent account on the life of Ron Kramer who starred for the Michigan Wolverines, Green Bay Packers, and the Detroit Lions.

Kramer credits his family for instilling in him the discipline necessary for his success at Michigan, the college he chose to attend so his parents could see him play.

For their inept play in 1956 the Green Bay Packers received a bonus pick in the 1957 draft as the rules then allowed. That choice went for Notre Dame's Paul Hornung. With the first choice in the regular round the Packers chose Michigan's Ron Kramer.

A broken leg in his rookie season threatened his career, but the arrival of Coach Vince Lombardi in 1959 revitalized his career as it did for several others on the team.

Lombardi saw Kramer as an ideal tight end, his "12th man on the field", because Kramer could both catch passes and block for others. This was a position held by Packer veteran Gary Knafelc who lacked the size and quickness of Kramer.

This was a team going nowhere under previous coaches Lisle Blackbourn and Ray "Scooter" McLean yet possessed a number of future Hall of Famers. The differences between them and Lombardi was that Lombardi stressed discipline and preparation.

Following the 1964 season Kramer requested a trade to the Detroit Lions so he could be closer to home where he felt he was needed due to family matters. It was either that or retire.

Had he remained in Green Bay he would have ended up on five championship teams instead of two and most likely cemented his place in football's Hall of Fame. However, family came before football as Lombardi himself stressed, and the trade was made.

The situation on the Lions under coach Harry Gilmer compared with the Packers was significant.

The book also deals with his family life after football and Kramer's emphasis on the importance on friendship in one's life. I did find one error in the book.

The author twice refers to Fordham's Seven "Rocks" of Granite when it should be Seven Blocks of Granite.

There have been numerous books written on former Green Bay Packer players and I'm glad to see one on Green Bay's other star player named Kramer, Ron Kramer. Football fan or not, you should enjoy it.

This is from the U of Michigan website :

From East Detroit, Kramer became a two-time All-American and a nine letterman in three sports - football, basketball, and track. Led Wolverine grid scoring for two seasons and did the same in basketball. He was a star receiver, a fine punter, and placekicker, and a ball-carrier as well. As a basketball player he scored 1,119 points and was a Most Valuable Player as a junior. Following graduation he embarked on a spectacular pro career with the Green Bay Packers and the Detroit Lions.

In the long tradition of outstanding Michigan athletes, Ron Kramer deserves to be ranked among the best. A nine-time letterman (three each in football, basketball, and track), Kramer's credits include two consensus football All-American selections (1955-56), the retirement of his jersey number (87) by the Wolverines following his senior season, and the selection as basketball Most Valuable Player for three years standing.

A native of Girard, KS, Kramer's family moved to East Detroit when he was five. Prior to attending the University of Michigan, he won Michigan all-state honors in football, basketball, and track.

As a Wolverine, Kramer was an excellent two way player on the gridiron, occupying at some point the positions of offensive and defensive end, running back, quarterback, kicker, and receiver, often all in the same game. Despite these talents, coach Bennie Oosterbaan described his blocking and tackling ability as the most valuable asset to the Michigan squad.

As captain of the basketball team during his senior year, Kramer set Michigan's all-time scoring mark at 1,124 points, a standard that stood until 1961. As a member of the Wolverine track squad, Kramer was a talented high jumper, despite his 230-pound frame. On at least one occasion he walked over to the Michigan track meet after participating in spring football drills, and won the high jump with a 6-foot-4 leap.

Kramer went on to play for the Green Bay Packers under Vince Lombardi in the early 1960's. As the prototype of NFL tight ends, he was named to the all-Pro team following the 1961 and 1962 seasons, as the Packers went on to win consecutive World Championships. Kramer finished his career with the Detroit Lions, following a trade involving their #1 selection in the 1965 NFL draft.

[motife]

Here's an interesting summary of Kramer's career :

At the U of Michigan, Ron Kramer was known at the "Terror of the Big Ten." He caught passes, placekicked, punted and blocked on offense; on defense he played defensive end in a bruising style that got him thrown out of the Ohio State game as a senior for unnessessary roughness. In addition to being a two time All Amaerican in football, he played center on the basketball team where he was 3 time MVP, and also lettered three years in track.

Drafted in the first round by the Packers in 1957, his pro career fell into three equal phases.

In his first four years, he looked like a flop. As a rookie, he caught 28 passes, but then missed more than a year in the military. By the time he reported to the team in 1959, he had missed training camp and was out of shape. He did not catch a pass all year.

In the following year, he won the starting tight end job in training camp. However, Lombardi sent him back to the bench after he ran the wrong pass pattern in the opener, causing a crucial pass interception in the loss to the Bears. He caught only four passes all year while being stuck on the pine.

Kramer rededicated his effort the next year and began the second phase of his pro career.

From 1961 through 1964, he was the prototypical tight end, a true blend of lineman and receiver. As Kramer described it, the tight end is a "loose tackle". When Sport Magazine covered the tight end position in 1960's series, "The Specialist in Pro Football", Kramer is the tight end they chose to profile.

In those 4 years, he caught 138 passes for 2,202 yards and 15 TD's. In the 1961 37-0 demolishing of the NYG's in the title game, Kramer caught four passes for 80 yards including two for TD's. In addition, Ron was a leveling blocker at 6'3" and 240 pounds, and that was even more important to the Packers' attack.

In that same 1961 title game, the Giants Sam Huff remarked to Paul Hornung, "Every time I reach for you, I end up with Kramer in my chest."

The Bears' Mike Ditka and the Colts' John Mackey were more central to their teams' passing offenses and caught more passes, but Kramer was a powerful force at the line of scrimmage for Green Bay. His ability to handle a defensive end by himself freed the Packer interior lineman to expand their own blocking range.

When Kramer "played out his option" under the Rozelle Rule in 1965 to live near his family, Kramer entered the last phase of his carrer. In three years with the Lions, he caught only 59 passes for a single touchdown.

[motife]

Here's a blurb on Eddie Lee Ivery from the same book. I was at the game that Eddie Lee tore up his knee. After he tore up his knee, he just sat on the bench with a towel over his head. I remembered it happening at Lambeau though, not Soldier Field. I looked it up and the first game of 1979 was at Soldier Field. But I don't remember going there. I'll have to do some research.

"Eddie Lee Ivery might be remembered to this day the greatest running back in the history of the Packers if it hadn't been for two ill fated games on Soldier Field's artificial turf.

Drafted in the first round in 1979, Ivery led the Packers in rushing and receivng during the pre-season that year. But he suffered ligament and cartilage damage to his left knee in the season opener against the Bears. Two years later, Ivery again sustained ligament damage to the same knee, again at Soldier Field.

Ivery played seven years with the Packers and was a reliable, steady running back, but he never again displayed the flashes of brilliance that people saw during that first preseason. "Eddie, man he had a lot of promise," said former GB DE Ezra Johnson. "I thought he would have ranked up there with a guy like Walter Payton."

[motife]

Here's a blurb from Herb Adderly, GB's fierce CB, infamously known for his now outlawed clothesline tackles :

Herb Adderly expressed amazement at the size of Nitschke's bearlike paws. "He had huge hands," remembered Adderly, who played alongside Nitschke from 1961 to 1969. "Great hands. He didn't drop many balls that came his way. He and (TE) Ron Kramer had the best hands on the team. I never saw Ron Kramer drop a pass in practice or during a game and Nitschke, very seldom would he have a chance for an interception and not get it."