Brian Brohm

[TennesseePackerBacker]

Labeling players busts before they even reach year 3 is probably the most ignorant thing any football fan can do.

I see you guys bashing Harrell and it's just so ridiculous, there is no reason for it. The kid hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet.

And you guys think a rookie nickleback or Reggie Nelson would've taken us to the promised land? Don't forget the Jags already had a great D before Nelson even stepped on board, you think he wouldve looked as good in Atlanta or St. Louis?

Every time i stick up for Harrell all I get for it is being called a homer, when the truth of the matter is everyone is judging this kid prematurely, way prematurely.

Want a quick example? look at Roddy White last year, garbage until his 3rd year and then the kid explodes with joey harrington throwing him the ball.

Some people need to get a clue.

[wist43]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out!

Tar, I'm not saying that Williams is a pro bowl DT, I'm saying he's a solid, young, and productive player. A valuable part of the DL rotation - or should I say, WAS.

Harrell, if we're lucky, will be as good as Williams... I don't see him being better, he doesn't have the foot speed to ever be much of a pass rusher. He'll be part of the rotation, but I just don't see how the swap improved the team.

Brohm is a seperate issue, and as I said earlier I suspect he would have been a Packer regardless of whether we got that 2nd round pick from Cleveland or not. Of course that's speculation, we'll never know, but as I said TT was actively looking to move up to snag Brohm as the 2nd round wore on. Who knows, with only two 2nd round picks, maybe he plays it differently and ends up trading up from the other 2nd round pick that turned into Lee???

Just scernarios...

[cheesner]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out!

Tar, I'm not saying that Williams is a pro bowl DT, I'm saying he's a solid, young, and productive player. A valuable part of the DL rotation - or should I say, WAS.

Harrell, if we're lucky, will be as good as Williams... I don't see him being better, he doesn't have the foot speed to ever be much of a pass rusher. He'll be part of the rotation, but I just don't see how the swap improved the team.

Brohm is a seperate issue, and as I said earlier I suspect he would have been a Packer regardless of whether we got that 2nd round pick from Cleveland or not. Of course that's speculation, we'll never know, but as I said TT was actively looking to move up to snag Brohm as the 2nd round wore on. Who knows, with only two 2nd round picks, maybe he plays it differently and ends up trading up from the other 2nd round pick that turned into Lee???

Just scernarios...

You are right, Harrell will likely never tally a lot of sacks for himself. That isn't his game. What is his game is collapsing the pocket. He is very quick and very strong. Guards will get thrown back, although he does not have the ability, at this point, to get around a blocker, he really doesn't need to. QBs will not be able to step up and make throws, so they will have to make less than perfect throws (cbs get more ints) or roll out (DEs should therefore get more sacks). Although the stats won't show it, JH can make this defense much better. Corey Williams was a solid player, perhaps better than average, but he by no means is the type of player that JH can be.

[Freak Out]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out!

Tar, I'm not saying that Williams is a pro bowl DT, I'm saying he's a solid, young, and productive player. A valuable part of the DL rotation - or should I say, WAS.

Harrell, if we're lucky, will be as good as Williams... I don't see him being better, he doesn't have the foot speed to ever be much of a pass rusher. He'll be part of the rotation, but I just don't see how the swap improved the team.

Brohm is a seperate issue, and as I said earlier I suspect he would have been a Packer regardless of whether we got that 2nd round pick from Cleveland or not. Of course that's speculation, we'll never know, but as I said TT was actively looking to move up to snag Brohm as the 2nd round wore on. Who knows, with only two 2nd round picks, maybe he plays it differently and ends up trading up from the other 2nd round pick that turned into Lee???

Just scernarios...

You are right, Harrell will likely never tally a lot of sacks for himself. That isn't his game. What is his game is collapsing the pocket. He is very quick and very strong. Guards will get thrown back, although he does not have the ability, at this point, to get around a blocker, he really doesn't need to. QBs will not be able to step up and make throws, so they will have to make less than perfect throws (cbs get more ints) or roll out (DEs should therefore get more sacks). Although the stats won't show it, JH can make this defense much better. Corey Williams was a solid player, perhaps better than average, but he by no means is the type of player that JH can be.

If Harrell can stay healthy and stuff the run consistently he was well worth the pick. Damn...it seems like only yesterday we could be run on all game long.
I think Brohm was taken to high but if Rogers goes down we'll be happy we have him as well as Flynn. I have no problem with TT going the youth route in the QB department considering who was available as a FA.

[Brandon494]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out!

Tar, I'm not saying that Williams is a pro bowl DT, I'm saying he's a solid, young, and productive player. A valuable part of the DL rotation - or should I say, WAS.

Harrell, if we're lucky, will be as good as Williams... I don't see him being better, he doesn't have the foot speed to ever be much of a pass rusher. He'll be part of the rotation, but I just don't see how the swap improved the team.

Brohm is a seperate issue, and as I said earlier I suspect he would have been a Packer regardless of whether we got that 2nd round pick from Cleveland or not. Of course that's speculation, we'll never know, but as I said TT was actively looking to move up to snag Brohm as the 2nd round wore on. Who knows, with only two 2nd round picks, maybe he plays it differently and ends up trading up from the other 2nd round pick that turned into Lee???

Just scernarios...

You are right, Harrell will likely never tally a lot of sacks for himself. That isn't his game. What is his game is collapsing the pocket. He is very quick and very strong. Guards will get thrown back, although he does not have the ability, at this point, to get around a blocker, he really doesn't need to. QBs will not be able to step up and make throws, so they will have to make less than perfect throws (cbs get more ints) or roll out (DEs should therefore get more sacks). Although the stats won't show it, JH can make this defense much better. Corey Williams was a solid player, perhaps better than average, but he by no means is the type of player that JH can be.

If Harrell can stay healthy and stuff the run consistently he was well worth the pick. Damn...it seems like only yesterday we could be run on all game long.
I think Brohm was taken to high but if Rogers goes down we'll be happy we have him as well as Flynn. I have no problem with TT going the youth route in the QB department considering who was available as a FA.

You think taking Brohm in the 2nd round was too high? This guy would have been a first rounder in last years draft. Getting him in the 2nd round was a steal.

[Brandon494]

Also I dont really know how this Brohm thread got moved to a Harrell thread but how about we see what the guy can do when he is completely healthy. Not only was he a rookie last season but he also was not a 100%. Way too premature to be calling these guy a bust.

[Guiness]

Harrel a bust? I didn't see where anyone said, or even insinuated that.

What is being said is that it's not certain Harrel will be a lot better than Williams - who by all accounts, was a pretty damn good player! And that if he's a marginal upgrade, or not an upgrade at all, then it was a bad pick - not that he's a bust, but that the pick could've been better used.

[Tarlam!]

...if he's a marginal upgrade, or not an upgrade at all, then it was a bad pick - not that he's a bust, but that the pick could've been better used.

Which is exactly why I am prepared to concede the point to Wist. It's a valid point.

Harrell's contract data http://www.rotoworld.com/content/pla...rt=NFl&id=4214 states that he 14 million over 6 years. Year one he was not really mentionable and year 6 we'll renegotiate anyways. So, in reality we're looking at 14 / 4. That amounts to 3.5 million p.a.

Williams would have cost us a lot more, IIRC. He wanted blockbuster money. He got one. http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/...rt=Nfl&id=2876

So, if the talent level remains simply equal, TT did a good job IMHO. He got same quality for better value. It all comes down to Harrell playing as well as Williams.

Now, throw the Brohm pick in and you have an improved ball club.

Wisty, your point is valid, but if Harrell comes good, we are btter off.

[Brandon494]

Now that Williams has his money I really dont see him being as productive as he was with the Pack. Can you say C. Hunt?

[StPaulPackFan]

Call me crazy, but I'm sober enough to argue that Williams and a 1st round pick from last year at a position of need, is better than Harrell... wouldn't it have been nice to have 1st round calibur corner playing nickel last year???

Right or wrong I don't think TT, or the coaching staff for that matter, saw Williams as the high caliber player that some around here do. IMO, TT wanted a difference maker at DT. Other than Pickett, who is solid, no other DT fit that mold. TT obviously thinks Harrell does.

Sure Williams had 7 sacks last year. Unfortunately, when he was pushed into the starting rotation in week 12 he recorded only 1 sack over the next 8 games. IMO, this is what ultimately sealed his fate in GB.

[Packnut]

clue

Labeling players busts before they even reach year 3 is probably the most ignorant thing any football fan can do.

I see you guys bashing Harrell and it's just so ridiculous, there is no reason for it. The kid hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet.

And you guys think a rookie nickleback or Reggie Nelson would've taken us to the promised land? Don't forget the Jags already had a great D before Nelson even stepped on board, you think he wouldve looked as good in Atlanta or St. Louis?

Every time i stick up for Harrell all I get for it is being called a homer, when the truth of the matter is everyone is judging this kid prematurely, way prematurely.





Want a quick example? look at Roddy White last year, garbage until his 3rd year and then the kid explodes with joey harrington throwing him the ball.

Some people need to get a clue.

Your comments about Nelson are INSANE! The kid was all-rookie. He had 5 picks as a rookie. Has Collins even had that many in 3 years? You have no way of knowing what Nelson would have done. May-be he lays out Burress in the championship game? You DON"T KNOW. What I do know and what is FACT, is Harrell did NOTHING in the championship game.

I do totally agree with you on one thing though, some people indeed have no clue.

[wist43]

Call me crazy, but I'm sober enough to argue that Williams and a 1st round pick from last year at a position of need, is better than Harrell... wouldn't it have been nice to have 1st round calibur corner playing nickel last year???

Right or wrong I don't think TT, or the coaching staff for that matter, saw Williams as the high caliber player that some around here do. IMO, TT wanted a difference maker at DT. Other than Pickett, who is solid, no other DT fit that mold. TT obviously thinks Harrell does.

Sure Williams had 7 sacks last year. Unfortunately, when he was pushed into the starting rotation in week 12 he recorded only 1 sack over the next 8 games. IMO, this is what ultimately sealed his fate in GB.

TT didn't see Williams as a high calibur player??? He tagged him at what??? a 1st and 3rd (or 4th, didn't they change the compensation of the tags???); anyway... he wasn't worth that of course, but it set the stage for someone to make a more substantial offer - I was glad when TT tagged him, but as I've said, my preference would have been to just sign him last offseason.

Williams had what??? 14 1/2 sacks from the DT position in 2 years??? That's a very good sack total for an interior linemen... but, more than the sack numbers, he provided consistant pressure up the middle.

Jolly going down hurt not only the DL, it hurt the entire defense... Harrell simply wasn't even good enough to put on the field, so everybody else had to pull extra snaps - how many games was Harrell inactive, despite the need for a DT, and the fact that he was healthy???

And when they finally did throw him to the wolves he got his ass handed to him - Harrell not being able to pull his weight pulled the entire DL down.

Harrell played, but it was only b/c of his draft status and injuries... I'm not going to label him a bust b/c, of course, 1 year does not a bust make, but he's certainly off to a bad start.

[Deputy Nutz]

Harrell was going to get significant snaps and then hurt himself during the bye week. It took a month for him to get over his ankle injury and then he was able to contribute to the defense and defensive line when Pickett missed the last two games of the season. He contributed during the playoffs as well. He didn't set the world on fire but he certainly didn't make himself look foolish.

What I still don't understand is why we all think we are smarter than Ted Thompson. I guess this is what we do, come on a forum and disect a singular move by Thompson and either condemn him before the fact that all players in the deal have matured one way or another.

Harrell could be the next big time run stuffer, and all the bashers won't be seen around here for another 6 months. Or Harrell could end up sitting on his fat ass and we will never hear the end of the bashers on how they called out the bust of Harrell and the foolishness of Thompson.

If any of you take the time to sit at home in the dark and break down film of 90% of the college football players out there, and when you are finished with that you can break down film of all the current players in the NFL. After you do this then you can honestly claim that Thompson has no idea what the hell he is doing.

Sure some of your aruguments make sense, but I am sure the Packer front office took a longer and more painstaking aproach then all of us combined on the trade of Williams and the drafting of Harrell.

[Lurker64]

TT didn't see Williams as a high calibur player??? He tagged him at what??? a 1st and 3rd (or 4th, didn't they change the compensation of the tags???); anyway... he wasn't worth that of course, but it set the stage for someone to make a more substantial offer - I was glad when TT tagged him, but as I've said, my preference would have been to just sign him last offseason.

Thompson applied the non-Exclusive franchise tag to him. He had three options available:

Exclusive Franchise Tag: Paid the average of the top 5 highest paid players at his position in the upcoming season and may not negotiate with any other team.

Non-Exclusive Franchise Tag: Paid the average of the top 5 highest paid players at his position in the previous season, and may negotiate and sign an offer sheet with any other team who signs him owing the tagging team two first round picks as compensation. The tagging team has the right of first refusal to match any offer.

Transition Tag: Paid the average of the top 10 highest paid players at his position in the previous season. May negotiate and sign an offer sheet with any other team, with the tagging team having to right of first refusal. If he ends up with another team, no compensation is granted.

TT really only had one reasonable choice here, the one he pursued. I wouldn't say that "TT applied the only tag that makes sense to use in this situation" can really be used as evidence of Thompson's high opinion of Harrell. I'm not sure whether or not trading him was the right decision, but I'm happy to give Thompson the benefit of the doubt. Some things I saw last year led me to believe Harrell has a lot of upside, but like most DTs, he will take a year or two to really adapt to the NFL game.

[Chester Marcol]

Harrell was going to get significant snaps and then hurt himself during the bye week. It took a month for him to get over his ankle injury and then he was able to contribute to the defense and defensive line when Pickett missed the last two games of the season. He contributed during the playoffs as well. He didn't set the world on fire but he certainly didn't make himself look foolish.

What I still don't understand is why we all think we are smarter than Ted Thompson. I guess this is what we do, come on a forum and disect a singular move by Thompson and either condemn him before the fact that all players in the deal have matured one way or another.

Harrell could be the next big time run stuffer, and all the bashers won't be seen around here for another 6 months. Or Harrell could end up sitting on his fat ass and we will never hear the end of the bashers on how they called out the bust of Harrell and the foolishness of Thompson.

If any of you take the time to sit at home in the dark and break down film of 90% of the college football players out there, and when you are finished with that you can break down film of all the current players in the NFL. After you do this then you can honestly claim that Thompson has no idea what the hell he is doing.

Sure some of your aruguments make sense, but I am sure the Packer front office took a longer and more painstaking aproach then all of us combined on the trade of Williams and the drafting of Harrell.

The major problem is that fans think in the "right now" to where as a GM better be thinking at least a couple years out. Did the deal make the most sense for this season? Maybe, maybe not. Does it make more sense 2 or 3 seasons down the road? That's where TT keeps or loses his job.

Another aspect that I don't think anyone has brought up is the ramifications of paying Williams more than Picket, Kampman, or Jenkins who are more every down players than Williams. Do you think that would really go unnoticed? I think keeping the peace is more important than over paying for a rotational guy.