Woodson/Harris : near bottom of NFL as CB tandem

[DonHutson]

Articles like this are written by interns trying to break into the business. It's like if I took a selective stat, say... Madtown hasn't had sex with a woman for 6 consecutive Tuesdays, and then offered that as concrete proof that he's gay.

Then someone who only skims an article starts stating as fact that mad is gay....I read it on the internet, it must be true.

There's a lot to read there, but I guess the main point is that Mad's gay? Well, maybe he'll prefer to have Harris and Woodson on the bottom then.

At least on Tuesdays.

[mraynrand]

The numbers are misleading. The top 3 pairs play in Cover 2 schemes. Cover 2 was designed to eliminate the long passes.

Guys like Woodson, Harris, Bly and Champ are man to man corners. They are all shut down corners. It's easier to complete passes against man than zone.

When you're right, you're right, Tank/PF#1. Good analysis.

It's easier to complete passes against man than zone? I thought the whole point of cover two was to limit the big play, and help protect corners that aren't so great in coverage (zone in general does that). Man coverage risks giving up huge plays - that's why you need a good pass rush with it. Cover two will allow the shorter completions, so the stats might show a lower average yards/completion (and likely per attempt I would think) than man.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Starting next year Woodson's contract gets much more expensive.

Wrong... T.T. front loaded the contract... even on his last year, that is not that much for a cornerback...

4/26/2006: Signed a seven-year, $52 million contract. The deal included a $4 million signing bonus and $10.5 million in first-year guarantees.

2008: $3.25 million,
2009: $4 million,
2010: $5 million,
2011: $5.5 million,
2012: $6.5 million,
2013: Free Agent

At the time it seemed like a three year deal. The out years got more expensive with roster bonuses and other add ons that made it seem like an interim deal until the next guy could be drafted.

At the moment I can't find the details only this link:

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=418872

There is more than base salaries involved.

[red]

these numbers don't take into account that harris is a shut down corner. there just weren't that many passes completed against him. even though he was usually covering #1's

if a guy gives up only 10 completions in a year for 100 yards he gives up a 10 yard average

now if a guy gives up 100 passes for 900 yards over a year he gets a 9.0 average

according to this analysis the guy that gave up 900 yards had the better year, even though the other guy had a much much better year

these stats are just worthless unless you somehow take into account the amount of completion per passing attempts against them

maybe patler, if he's still around, can give some hard numbers

[Guiness]

Re: Woodson/Harris : near bottom of NFL as CB tandem

Also interesting is the incredible varriance in attempts made. This can be for many reasons of course. A high number of attempts can mean a poor secondary...it can also mean your team was generally ahead! Same with a low number of attempts - a good secondary, or maybe your run D sucked!

2007 Team Cornerbacks Net Att Net Yds YPA
Tampa Bay Ronde Barber/Phillip Buchanon 116 671 5.8

These two are a good pair, and yes, the coverage scheme helps.

Indianapolis Kelvin Hayden/Marlin Jackson 105 748 7.1

Don't know why so low here? Teams should have generally been playing catch-up. Don't know much about this pair, are they that good?

Miami Will Allen/Michael Lehan 129 832 6.4
Oakland Nnamdi Asomugha/Stanford Routt 90 715 7.9

Two of the lowest - I'm guessing cause the other squad was always up by 2TD's by the second quarter!

Minnesota Cedric Griffin/Marcus McCauley/Antoine Winfield 214 1,894 8.9
Dallas Anthony Henry/Terence Newman/Jacques Reeves 231 1,630 7.1
San Diego Antonio Cromartie/Drayton Florence/Quentin Jammer 203 1,565 7.7

I think the run D meant teams threw alot against this bunch.

Cincinnati Leon Hall/Johnathan Joseph/Deltha O'Neal 232 1,759 7.6

Deltha's still in the league??? I'm guessing everyone threw against these guys...because they could!

Baltimore Corey Ivy/Chris McAlister 118 1,123 9.5

Ed Reed likely had as much to do with the low number of attempts as these two.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Re: Woodson/Harris : near bottom of NFL as CB tandem

2007 Team Cornerbacks Net Att Net Yds YPA
Tampa Bay Ronde Barber/Phillip Buchanon 116 671 5.8

These two are a good pair, and yes, the coverage scheme helps.

Indianapolis Kelvin Hayden/Marlin Jackson 105 748 7.1

Don't know why so low here? Teams should have generally been playing catch-up. Don't know much about this pair, are they that good?

Ronde is still decent, but he didn't play at Pro Bowl level. Buchanon was been a bust since he got into the league--until last year. He was decent last year.

Hayden and Jackson are an outstanding, young pair of corners. Both had at least solid years last year and maybe better.

[HarveyWallbangers]

USA Today ranks Al the 4th best corner today. Herb Adderley received the 8th most votes for best corner in the Super Bowl era.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2008-06-22-top-five-cornerbacks_N.htm?csp=34

Al gets the hype, but Chuck was better in 2007. Al was mint in 2006, but he's getting the pub a year late--which tends to happen.

BTW, Mason Crosby got some votes for best K. Jan Stenerud got the 3rd most votes for best K in the Super Bowl ear.

[packrulz]

Stats can be made to say whatever you want but I agree with the article that Woody and Harris are getting old, they're still good but declining in skills, they have maybe 2 years left. Plaxico Burress dominated Harris in the NFC Championship game and the Packers need badly for Lee and Williams to step up and prove they can start. I think TT should draft 2 CB's high every year until he can find their replacements. Safety is a concern also, but Bigby/Culver/Rouse are beginning to step up.

[vince]

When stats are presented objectively, they're illuminating. The question then becomes, "Which stats are correct?"

Here's a statistical analysis of the various CB tandems in the NFL. Green Bay ranked as the seventh best tandem last year. These stats indicate lower number of completions and fewer yards than those in the original post.

Shutdown Cornerback Stats

I tried copying the table into the post, but it looks like shit - and it's too much work to align.

Anyone know how to use the "Code" function to align tables like this one?

[sharpe1027]

When they compiled those stats, how do they select who gets credited for the yards on a catch?

For the Packers I imagine it would generally be pretty easy, mostly man coverage, but to who do you charge the yardage to when, for example, a WR cuts accross the middle passing through two or three different coverage zones?

[vince]

In the Two Minute Warning compilation, the stats reflect opponents' yardage from their #1 and #2 receivers, thus eliminating the potential subjective assignment of which DB is "credited" with the yardage. The assumption is that the starting corners match up with the top 2 receivers... That is mostly true in the case of man-dominated coverage schemes, and eliminates the bias in determining who is responsible for zone coverage in the cases you mentioned sharpe.

I couldn't determine exactly how the Football Scientist came up with his stats, but those results do appear to be biased in favor of zone dominated coverages.

[sharpe1027]

The assumption is that the starting corners match up with the top 2 receivers

This assumption isn't even true for all man-coverage schemes. The stat, in isolation, is pretty meaningless, IMHO. For example, with a cover-2 type zone, YPA would seem to reflect your saftey play more than your CB play...

[vince]

Point taken in that it may not perfectly reflect the starting corners' production or lack thereof, but the stat is far from meaningless. Here's the preface to the stat table.

Shutdown Cornerbacks
The ability to limit the big plays to an opposing team's top two receivers has been a good indicator of Super Bowl quality teams over the recent years.
While the "shutdown CB" label may be overly simplistic, the following stats do detail the respective strength and weakness of teams in this area.

The top 11 teams in this statistic were 11 of the 12 playoff teams last year. That's meaningful.

[sharpe1027]

Point taken in that it may not perfectly reflect the starting corners' production or lack thereof, but the stat is far from meaningless. Here's the preface to the stat table.

Shutdown Cornerbacks
The ability to limit the big plays to an opposing team's top two receivers has been a good indicator of Super Bowl quality teams over the recent years.
While the "shutdown CB" label may be overly simplistic, the following stats do detail the respective strength and weakness of teams in this area.

Good QB pressure can be limit yardage per attempt more than CB play. Schemes, safety play and game situations also play a huge role.

As staed in the preface, the stat has more meaning in terms of the strength and weakness of teams. Even so, one would expect a bump-and-run type man-to-man defense to generally going to give up more big plays, whereas, many zone defenses would give up more underneath and less deep....

[Fritz]

What's all this talk of statistics and cover two versus press coverage and YPA? All I know is that I read that Mad is gay.