Thank you mike Sherman

[pbmax]

1) Since you want to debate 'quality' starters versus starters, whcih ultimately is opinion, shouldn't we just measure the GM based on record? I mean, who cares if you think Peterson is quality or not, if the Packers win 32 and lose 16, go to the playoffs every year, sin their division, and almost make the NFC championship. Isn't this what a Gm is supposed to do - help the team win NOW.

The coach's job is to win now. Put the team in the best position to win each game and train backups to take the place of starters in case of injuries. Develop both in the offseason.

The GM has both responsibilites on his plate. Keep quality as cheaply as possible and build for a future.

GM is talent procurement, coach is talent development and execution.

The other example you site, 2002 versus 2005, despite losing quality starters we still stumbled into the playoffs in 2002. 2005 was a complete meltdown. We did not lose as many starters games as New England did. I think depth had everything to do with the difference between 2002 and 2005.

[pbmax]

And on the issue of who was really GM for the 2001 draft, I found the following on who made the trade for the #10 pick in 2001. Look for paragraphs 17 through 21.

Super QBs remain ticket to success
Posted: Feb. 4, 2006
On the Packers



Bob McGinn

Detroit - Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler and Brad Johnson remind us that Super Bowls can be won by teams without a great quarterback.

The 28 Super Bowls that have been won either by teams with quarterbacks already in the Pro Football Hall of Fame or with quarterbacks destined for enshrinement demonstrate that having a great quarterback clearly is the easiest way to go.

When Mike Holmgren traded for Matt Hasselbeck in March 2001, he was three years into his reign in Seattle with Jon Kitna and headed nowhere but to the unemployment line.

When Bill Cowher drafted Ben Roethlisberger in April 2004, his teams in Pittsburgh had won just 53 of their last 100 games and his quarterback was Tommy Maddox. In other words, Cowher had no chance to overtake New England with Tom Brady or Indianapolis with Peyton Manning.

It might appear too simplistic to attribute the appearance of the Seattle Seahawks and Pittsburgh Steelers in Super Bowl XL to Hasselbeck and Roethlisberger. Fact is, it's only too true.

Fate, courage and superior coaching brought Hasselbeck to where he is today, one of the top three or four quarterbacks in the NFC.

Fate and superior scouting brought Roethlisberger to where he is today, one of the top four or five quarterbacks in the AFC.

The edge, at this point, probably should go to Hasselbeck based on his eight years of pro experience compared to Roethlisberger's two. But Ron Wolf, the retired general manager who drafted Mark Brunell, Aaron Brooks and Hasselbeck for the Packers besides trading for Brett Favre, doesn't see it that way.

"I don't think you can put that on Hasselbeck," Wolf said Friday night. "You can't say which one is better."

Wolf didn't hesitate when asked who was responsible for the selection of Hasselbeck in the sixth round in 1998. That was based on the strong presentation and recommendation from quarterbacks coach Andy Reid.

Hasselbeck had been a two-year starter at Boston College, finishing with 22 touchdown passes and 26 interceptions. He was smart (29 on the 50-question Wonderlic intelligence test) and possessed ideal stature (6 feet 4 inches, 222 pounds), but some scouts dinged him for being slow (4.93 seconds in the 40-yard dash) and having only an average arm.

In that draft, my rankings showed Hasselbeck No. 13 at the position, behind Ryan Leaf, Manning, Brian Griese, Charlie Batch, John Dutton, Dan Gonzalez, Ron Powlus, Thad Busby, Jonathan Quinn, Dameyune Craig, Moses Moreno and Cory Sauter.

Hasselbeck was waived by Green Bay on the last cut and signed two days later to the practice squad. In 1999, after Doug Pederson left to join Reid in Philadelphia, he managed to fight off Brooks for the No. 2 job. With Brooks traded to New Orleans in July 2000, "Mr. August" had another terrific exhibition season.

In his only regular-season appearance of consequence, Hasselbeck replaced an injured Favre in November 2000 at Tampa Bay and struggled in a 20-15 defeat.

By the end of the '00 season, did the Packers think enough of Hasselbeck that they would have anointed him as their starter if something serious had befallen Favre?

"Probably, yes," Wolf said. "But that would have been hard because he had a bummer of a game down at Tampa. He kind of fell apart, but I attributed that to the speed of the game. He was superb in those pre-season games against the 2's and 3's."

Wolf stepped down in February 2001 but agreed to assist Mike Sherman through the draft. Together, they decided to deal Hasselbeck because, in another year, he would have become an unrestricted free agent.

On March 2, just after the start of the trading period, Wolf was wrapping up trade talks with Rick Spielman, then personnel director for the Miami Dolphins. The Dolphins were offering their first-round draft choice (No. 26) for Hasselbeck if the Packers agreed to switch second-round selections, dropping the Packers from the 47th to the 56th pick.

"We had a deal," Wolf said. "But then he (Spielman) said he had to go check with somebody and would call me back."

Wolf left to inform Sherman. When Wolf entered Sherman's office, he was on the phone with Holmgren. The Seahawks had increased the ante, offering their first-round pick (No. 10) plus their third-round choice (No. 72) for Green Bay's first (No. 17) and Hasselbeck.

"So we did it," Wolf said. "When he (Spielman) called back I said, 'Hey, it's too late.' There wasn't anything he could do. I'm sure he was (crestfallen)."

Miami coach Dave Wannstedt ended up playing Jay Fiedler, A.J. Feeley and Sage Rosenfels over the next few years, treaded water and eventually had to resign under pressure.

Not only did the Seahawks get a starting quarterback but they also used the 17th pick on Steve Hutchinson, now the best guard in football. The trade blew up in the Packers' face when they took Jamal Reynolds at No. 10 and Torrance Marshall at No. 72.

"I've thought over the years it might have been better with 17, 26 and 56," Wolf said. "But if we had picked Dan Morgan it wouldn't have mattered."

Holmgren couldn't have been in more desperate straits. His only other options were to sign free agents Elvis Grbac, Trent Green or Johnson.

He gambled on Hasselbeck, who came to bristle under Holmgren's short leash and eventually was benched for Dilfer.

"I handled it very, very poorly," Hasselbeck said at midweek. "I got upset. I took it personal or made excuses."

Hasselbeck followed Favre around like a puppy dog for three years, which was both good and bad. He learned what it took to be a pro and how to ad-lib. He also learned to take chances, and with less arm than Favre it didn't always work.

"What Matt and Brett have in common is the competitive fire, the stubbornness, the intellect it takes, the ability to lead," Holmgren said. "They are quite different in a lot of ways, but those are the things that would be very attractive to anybody that coaches them."

Hasselbeck's passer rating of 98.2 this season ranked fourth in the league. The only season in which Favre had a better mark was 1995 (99.5).

Six people were asked last week if Hasselbeck's level of play had climbed to Favre's level at the same age (30). Three Seahawks - vice president Mike Reinfeldt, wide receivers coach Nolan Cromwell and defensive line coach Dwaine Board - either said it was very similar or equal. Three Steelers - defensive line coach John Mitchell, assistant secondary coach Ray Horton and safety Tyrone Carter - said it wasn't.

Said Reinfeldt: "I think his level of productivity is nearing Brett. He's a different guy than Brett, more of an efficient guy. He operates so well within the West Coast offense. . . the progressions, the right decisions, the right throws. It's interesting. It's Matt's fifth season here and it was Brett's fifth season in Green Bay when we won the Super Bowl."

Said Wolf: "I don't know because I haven't seen a lot of Hasselbeck. But I think you're talking about a different level here. Favre probably had three MVPs by that time."

In the weeks leading up to the '04 draft, Steelers quarterbacks coach Mark Whipple said the Steelers ranked Eli Manning first, Roethlisberger second and Philip Rivers third.

"Everybody knew that we didn't have a shot at Manning," Whipple said. "Roethlisberger was our target all the way."

There was much to like about Roethlisberger. He was big (6-5, 241), relatively fast (4.86) for his size, more than smart enough (25 on the Wonderlic) for the position and could make just about every throw.

The Steelers had one problem: They weren't picking until No. 11 and some mock drafts had Roethlisberger gone by No. 4.

San Diego and the New York Giants also wanted quarterbacks but preferred Manning and Rivers. Oakland and Arizona, which still don't have quarterbacks, took tackle Robert Gallery and wide receiver Larry Fitzgerald at No. 2 and No. 3, respectively.

Butch Davis signed his walking papers in Cleveland by signing Jeff Garcia to play quarterback and then trading up for tight end Kellen Winslow at No. 6. Still believing in Joey Harrington, Detroit President Matt Millen chose wide receiver Roy Williams at No. 7.

Atlanta, Jacksonville and Houston all had young quarterbacks and selected cornerback DeAngelo Hall, wide receiver Reggie Williams and cornerback Dunta Robinson, respectively. Pittsburgh, which feared Buffalo would trade up from No. 13 to take Roethlisberger, couldn't have been more exultant when the Bills stayed put.

After Maddox was injured in Week 3 of 2004, Roethlisberger had to play. His passer ratings have been 98.1 in 2004 (and 61.3 in the playoffs), 98.6 in 2005 (and 124.8 in the playoffs). He is the first quarterback since the merger in 1970 to make it to the conference championship game in his first two seasons. His record as a starter is 25-4.

"He's really good," said Wolf, who has seen much more of Roethlisberger than Hasselbeck. "He plays within himself. He has the ability to step around the rush and make a play. When they have to win, they put the ball in his hands and let him throw it."

Will Roethlisberger develop into one of the game's great quarterbacks?

"He sure looks like he will," Wolf said. "He looks like a more mobile Jim Kelly but not as pure a passer as Kelly. Not right now, anyway."

Either Hasselbeck or Roethlisberger will win a Super Bowl tonight. Don't be surprised if the victor goes on to become the 10th quarterback in Super Bowl history to capture more than one.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

did he win with his players? i think if you look at his drafting you'll see thats a big NO. he won with players that were mostly in place before he got the job. you can't say they had a winning record because of his GMing skills over that time

so you gotta ask, did they win because he was a good GM, or did they win because he became gm when a pretty damn good team was in place?

IMO you can't give much credit to sherman the GM for those wins, you can give sherman the coach some of the credit, but not the GM

Would the Packers have won as much as they did without Ahman Green, Mark Tausher, Chad Clifton, Donald Driver, William Henderson, Nail Diggs, and KGB? All those players were free agents under Sherman's watch. Sherman got the job done and retained them. People likes to breg about the cap. Sherman started each of his 3 fiscal years with less then the $7.5 M thompson had last year. Dont forget Sherman had to work with Wolf's mistakes on Levens and Freeman. Sherman couldve cleared up a bunch of cap room simply by letting the mentioned above players go. Of course, then, as the Wahle and Rivera case depicts last year, Pack wouldnt have made the playoffs under Sherman.

The bottom line is this: Wolf for built the foundation, Sherman sustained it and he upgraded the WR, LB and CB positions during his short tenure (Glenn and Walker over Freeman and Schroeder, Barnett over Barnado Harris, Harris over Tyrone Williams).

Thompson came along and dismantled the Pack. As I am fond of saying, the rest is 4-12.

[chain_gang]

Would the Packers have won as much as they did without Ahman Green, Mark Tausher, Chad Clifton, Donald Driver, William Henderson, Nail Diggs, and KGB? All those players were free agents under Sherman's watch. Sherman got the job done and retained them.

I completely agree with this APB, he do a heck of a job retaining/resigning key players. People overlook that quite a bit. Now his drafts are another story. But as far as resigning the right players, and looking out for the skill positions and Brett's safety in the pocket, Mike Sherman was right on top of that.

[red]

And on the issue of who was really GM for the 2001 draft, I found the following on who made the trade for the #10 pick in 2001. Look for paragraphs 17 through 21.



Wolf stepped down in February 2001 but agreed to assist Mike Sherman through the draft. Together, they decided to deal Hasselbeck because, in another year, he would have become an unrestricted free agent.

good find pb

thanks

[Anti-Polar Bear]

The GM has both responsibilites on his plate. Keep quality as cheaply as possible and build for a future.

GM is talent procurement, coach is talent development and execution.

The other example you site, 2002 versus 2005, despite losing quality starters we still stumbled into the playoffs in 2002. 2005 was a complete meltdown. We did not lose as many starters games as New England did. I think depth had everything to do with the difference between 2002 and 2005.

You must be hibernating last year. The biggest problem last year wasnt the injures to Walker, Franks and Green; it was the OL, and the OL was healthy last year. Driver stepped up for Walker. Gado, though not as good, was an OK fill in. The OL is what kept setting the Pack back.

Who was responsible for failing to resign Wahle and/or Rivera? Who failed to drafted an quility OL? Who failed to find quality replacements for Wahle and Rivera? As I am found of saying, show Wahle the money and he wouldve stayed (more than what Carolina offered him). Draft Mankins. OL problem solved.

[red]

did he win with his players? i think if you look at his drafting you'll see thats a big NO. he won with players that were mostly in place before he got the job. you can't say they had a winning record because of his GMing skills over that time

so you gotta ask, did they win because he was a good GM, or did they win because he became gm when a pretty damn good team was in place?

IMO you can't give much credit to sherman the GM for those wins, you can give sherman the coach some of the credit, but not the GM

Would the Packers have won as much as they did without Ahman Green, Mark Tausher, Chad Clifton, Donald Driver, William Henderson, Nail Diggs, and KGB? All those players were free agents under Sherman's watch. Sherman got the job done and retained them. People likes to breg about the cap. Sherman started each of his 3 fiscal years with less then the $7.5 M thompson had last year. Dont forget Sherman had to work with Wolf's mistakes on Levens and Freeman. Sherman couldve cleared up a bunch of cap room simply by letting the mentioned above players go. Of course, then, as the Wahle and Rivera case depicts last year, Pack wouldnt have made the playoffs under Sherman.

The bottom line is this: Wolf for built the foundation, Sherman sustained it and he upgraded the WR, LB and CB positions during his short tenure (Glenn and Walker over Freeman and Schroeder, Barnett over Barnado Harris, Harris over Tyrone Williams).

Thompson came along and dismantled the Pack. As I am fond of saying, the rest is 4-12.

yes he did do a good job of keeping some of his own players, who he already knew had talent. some were bad moves like kgb IMO, or at least the amount of money that was shelled out for some of the guys, or the deals he made (like making it almost impossible to keep wahle). but he was still pretty bad at drafting, and handling draft picks IMO

[pbmax]

It would seem that Sherman wasn't just watching this process. Now, McGinn isn't an uninterested bystader here. He put the screws to Sherman in 2004 several times including the story where someone in the personnel department took their revenge for BJ Sander. But I doubt anyone other than Wolf is telling the story of Sherman making a deal with Holmgren or T2.

But you can't say Sherman had minimal influence here.

And I recall Wolf saying he wasn't going to stick his coach with a player he didn't want when there was another alternative. I freely admit I can't find the quote, despite some searching.

But I don't think its beyond the likely that Wolf did construct the draft board and have Reynolds the #2 defender, and that the position was influenced by the desires of his coach and successor.

This article, obviously was written for the Super Bowl preview, so its not contemporary. I did find two other quotes from 2001 that were interesting.

In one, Wolf said if Robinson had been on the board, the Pack would have selected him. Sherman said they still would have gone Reynolds.

Maybe Wolf's last draft, but Sherman's finger prints are here as well.

[Bretsky]

The GM has both responsibilites on his plate. Keep quality as cheaply as possible and build for a future.

GM is talent procurement, coach is talent development and execution.

The other example you site, 2002 versus 2005, despite losing quality starters we still stumbled into the playoffs in 2002. 2005 was a complete meltdown. We did not lose as many starters games as New England did. I think depth had everything to do with the difference between 2002 and 2005.

You must be hibernating last year. The biggest problem last year wasnt the injures to Walker, Franks and Green; it was the OL, and the OL was healthy last year. Driver stepped up for Walker. Gado, though not as good, was an OK fill in. The OL is what kept setting the Pack back.

Who was responsible for failing to resign Wahle and/or Rivera? Who failed to drafted an quility OL? Who failed to find quality replacements for Wahle and Rivera? As I am found of saying, show Wahle the money and he wouldve stayed (more than what Carolina offered him). Draft Mankins. OL problem solved.

AND WHO FAILED TO HAVE SOME ADEQUATE BACKUPS IN PLACE VIA DRAFT IF MIKE WAHLE AND RIVERA LEFT ?

CAN YOU THINK OF ANY TIMES WHEN OL LEFT ON WOLF AND HE HAD THE STARTERS ON THE BNECH READY TO GO AND DO OK ? IF NOT I CAN PROVIDE EXAMPLES OF WHAT A GOOD GM WILL DO TO PLAN FOR THINGS.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

AND WHO FAILED TO HAVE SOME ADEQUATE BACKUPS IN PLACE VIA DRAFT IF MIKE WAHLE AND RIVERA LEFT ?

CAN YOU THINK OF ANY TIMES WHEN OL LEFT ON WOLF AND HE HAD THE STARTERS ON THE BNECH READY TO GO AND DO OK ? IF NOT I CAN PROVIDE EXAMPLES OF WHAT A GOOD GM WILL DO TO PLAN FOR THINGS.

Based on Sherman's track record of retaining his (or Wolfs) players, Sherman didnt anticipate losing Wahle. Sherman said it himself somewhere for JSO regarding Wahle. Wahle said it himself too, that if Sherman was still GM, he would still be a Pack. And based on his track record, Sherman wouldve gotten Wahle back. And based on his record of drafting for need, its likely Sherman wouldve drafted an OL, likely Mankins, with the 1st rd pick last year, or trade one of his 2nd for a proven guard or draft one in rd 2 or 3. Thompson waited until the 5th rd to draft a OL.

[Bretsky]

AND WHO FAILED TO HAVE SOME ADEQUATE BACKUPS IN PLACE VIA DRAFT IF MIKE WAHLE AND RIVERA LEFT ?

CAN YOU THINK OF ANY TIMES WHEN OL LEFT ON WOLF AND HE HAD THE STARTERS ON THE BNECH READY TO GO AND DO OK ? IF NOT I CAN PROVIDE EXAMPLES OF WHAT A GOOD GM WILL DO TO PLAN FOR THINGS.

Based on Sherman's track record of retaining his (or Wolfs) players, Sherman didnt anticipate losing Wahle. Sherman said it himself somewhere for JSO regarding Wahle. Wahle said it himself too, that if Sherman was still GM, he would still be a Pack. And based on his track record, Sherman wouldve gotten Wahle back. And based on his record of drafting for need, its likely Sherman wouldve drafted an OL, likely Mankins, with the 1st rd pick last year, or trade one of his 2nd for a proven guard or draft one in rd 2 or 3. Thompson waited until the 5th rd to draft a OL.

Plz find me where it stated, by Sherman or Wahle, that if Sherman was still the GM then Wahle would have stayed. I don't believe either of them said this.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Plz find me where it stated, by Sherman or Wahle, that if Sherman was still the GM then Wahle would have stayed. I don't believe either of them said this.

Christl blog:

Mike Wahle said he sensed that when Mike Sherman was still general manager the Packers were prepared to pay him the $6 million roster bonus that was part of his contract. But Wahle said that all changed when Ted Thompson replaced Sherman. "When Ted came in, it was kind of known that he thought guards were an expendable commodity," said Wahle.

[RashanGary]

God, You're gay Brokeback Polarbear.

I think Thompson F'd up on Wahle. I think Wahle is worth his paycheck. We'll see how it plays out. According to some things I've read about players; Gaurds and Saftys are the easiest to get in the draft or anywhere.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

According to some things I've read about players; Gaurds and Saftys are the easiest to get in the draft or anywhere.

Yeah, so easy Thompson merely needed to look no farther than Klemm and Earl Little. All the while Wahle and Sharper became All Pros. Good GMs dont fuck up like that. Thompson is not a good gm.

[GoPackGo]

.::.

God, You're gay Brokeback Polarbear.

I think Thompson F'd up on Wahle. I think Wahle is worth his paycheck. We'll see how it plays out. According to some things I've read about players; Gaurds and Saftys are the easiest to get in the draft or anywhere.

The proof that Guards and safeties are easiest to replace in the draft...:Sharper and Wahle were salary cap victems. Thompson has spent 2 2nd round picks on replacing them-Collins and Colledge. I like the 2 young guys at those positions.