Dallas O-line, Packer O-line

[Patler]

The running game was mediocre at best.
The Cowboys generated significant pressure rushing only 4 or 5, even when the Packers kept two in the backfield to block.

I can't see anyway of looking at that except that the O-line did not play well.

[mraynrand]

One interesting aspect to your original post, Patler, is that the O-line might be a good spot to improve via free agency. TT tried it the bargain basement way in his first year, and it failed miserably. But it seems possible that at least one position could be solidified by free agency. If Tauscher and Clifton really are in a downward spiral, and Wells is chronically hurt and/or too small, it's going to be hard to replace three positions all at the same time with draft picks. The chances of getting another draft with rookies like Clifton and Tauscher who can play right away seems slim, given TT's success at drafting linemen so far.

[Harlan Huckleby]

the O-line might be a good spot to improve via free agency. TT tried it the bargain basement way in his first year, and it failed miserably.

I think linemen on both sides of the ball are worth going after in FA. It is too hard to predict future winners through the draft at those positions.

[Patler]

One interesting aspect to your original post, Patler, is that the O-line might be a good spot to improve via free agency. TT tried it the bargain basement way in his first year, and it failed miserably. But it seems possible that at least one position could be solidified by free agency. If Tauscher and Clifton really are in a downward spiral, and Wells is chronically hurt and/or too small, it's going to be hard to replace three positions all at the same time with draft picks. The chances of getting another draft with rookies like Clifton and Tauscher who can play right away seems slim, given TT's success at drafting linemen so far.

Well, sort of.

Colombo was released by Chicago (as I recall) and appears to have been a minimum wage signing by the Cowboys. He was there for two years before getting much more than minimum salaries.

Kosier wasn't a big signing, in view of the much higher salary cap. More than Klemm, but not a big deal. Two teams essentially became disinterested in keeping him.

The big one was Leonard Davis. The best article I saw about that was a Cowboy writer who said when Davis got the contract he did, linemen everywhere rejoiced, stopped their off-season conditioning programs and changed their diets to everything they loved as kids. Never again would they have to concentrate on football!

Those three guys just seemed to fit together with what the Cowboys already had. The Cowboys also made a mistake with Rivera that could have really hurt them, but sort of washed away when the salary cap leaped ahead.

Kosier's signing was sort of like the Packer's signing of Pickett; and Davis was sort of like Woodson. The Cowboys made it work in the O-line, the Packers did on defense

[texaspackerbacker]

There's not an awful lot to quarrel with in any of those posts.

There's really two separate questions being intermingled here: One is the picture a year or two or whatever down the road when Clifton and Tauscher get replaced; The other is the best combination right now. I'll stick with the first question.

One thing you sorta left out of your excellent analysis, Patler, is that the Cowboys line is BIG--much bigger than the Packers, and bigger than almost all others in the NFL. Consequently, for better or worse, they don't do a lot of pulling or other finesse stuff. Also, big as they are, they don't do substantially better--maybe not as well--in pass blocking.

It's kind of a value judgment a team has to make as to what kind of an O Line it wants to have--it's practically impossilbe to have everything in even one or two players, much less across the line.

I have said, also, that playing together is the key to success. We're just getting to that point with the Packers, and as you said, we're getting close to the time the tackles will need to be replaced.

Somebody said a "realist" would draft an OT. Yes, but not likely #1. There would seem to be a pretty high rate of failure of supposedly top quality O Tackles coming out of college. While Giacomini and Sitton are worthy of consideration, I think Colledge has finally found his niche at Guard, and should be left alone.

I've said, and still say even after the loss, the current O Line is NOT under-performing based on their talent level and based on comparison to all other O Lines--not just great ones like the Cowboys. They are what they are: relatively small and mobile, but not very physical ZBS type O Linemen. I seriously doubt, regardless of what some in this forum might want, that Thompson/McCarthy will junk that whole concept and bring in a Cowboy size less mobile/more physical bunch. Would it help to acquire--draft or free agency--ONE huge stud lineman as the future Left Tackle? Maybe. I don't think that would require much departure from the ZBS or other current strategies. I very much doubt, though, that Thompson/McCarthy go that route.

And it's hard to argue with whatever they do, given the success the team has had with generally average quality guys in the O Line.

[Patler]

Tex
I don't think we disagree at all. What I was pointing out is that with O-linemen sometimes you have to have patience. The Cowboys decided to go big, real big, and got together an experienced group that seemed to work together. They are all 30 years old and older. None was a real star 3 years ago.

I haven't given up on any of the current group, including Moll. I just wish he wasn't starting right now. Rivera and Wahle took three and four years before they were consistent contributers. Both were bad when they became starters, and neither started as a rookie. Both turned out just fine.

Between Barbre, Colledge, Spitz, Sitton and Moll I have hopes that in 2-3 years the Packers will have two very, very good starters, and maybe more if one moves. I wouldn't be surprised to see Barbre get some exposure at LT to see if he can play it. He is amazingly athletic for his size. Sitton could "grow" into a right tackle, and the coaches have always said Moll is more of a tackle than a guard. It is conceivable 3 or 4 very good starters could develop out of that group.

[texaspackerbacker]

I agree, and I think that's what Thompson/McCarthy have in mind too--maybe draft a mid and a late rounder each of the next couple of years to add to the mix in hope of putting a good long term O Line together.

[mraynrand]

Kosier's signing was sort of like the Packer's signing of Pickett; and Davis was sort of like Woodson. The Cowboys made it work in the O-line, the Packers did on defense

That's an interesting observation. The Packers could have (and still can) make moves for O-linemen, but they have to fit the 'system.' Could the difficulty be in finding guy(s) that fit in, given the Packers are one of few teams running their system?

[mraynrand]

I agree, and I think that's what Thompson/McCarthy have in mind too--maybe draft a mid and a late rounder each of the next couple of years to add to the mix in hope of putting a good long term O Line together.

That might not be fast enough. Patler suggest three starters, and it's certainly in the realm of possibilities, but that still leaves a gap or two, depending on how soon Wells, Clifton, and Tauscher disintigrate.

[pbmax]

Ratliff had one sack and 3 tackles/assists and I remember him once beyond the sack. I certainly could have missed him and I don't have tape, but he wasn't the front seven player that worried me. I was worried about Ware. His constant pressure kept Rodgers from rolling in the favored right direction. And when he did roll right, he had to retreat deep and Tauscher could not stay locked up with Ware.

One thing about the passing that rings true with inside pressure though. Rodgers did not step up into the pocket much at all. I thought this was due to LB pressure from the inside, but in truth I didn't see much of this action on TV. It could have been Ratliff.

It's possible that the line's failings were just bad enough to unsettle a rookie starter. Facing a 3-4 and a good defense to boot, he was not making decisions as quickly as he had in other games. The O Line was a part of that.

And I think Spitz at center has given us a better run game. It seems more consistent than early last year. The hammy has kept Grant from breaking runs into longer ones. One measure might be the improved play of Jackson, but how much of that is his offseason versus Spitz is debatable. It could be the Derek Loville effect. Team just don't care about Jackson and don't focus on him.

Harlan,

You can defend this OL all you want (because you don't want Wells back starting), but the fact is: Jay Ratliff was the most impressive front seven player for Dallas last night, and he primarily went up against Spitz and Moll.

[RashanGary]

If I had to grade the lineman right now using the 3 games, I'd say:

Colledge (I've been impressed with him for the first time. He's a lot stronger and more consistent. He can really do a lot of things well with the movement as well as being OK at traditional power blocking)

Power run game - C
Finesse run game - B
Pass protection - B
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B-


Spitz (would grade him slightly lower if he were at RG because I don't think he's quite as strong as you like but mroe than strong enough at center and much stronger than Wells)

Power run game - B
Finesse run game - B
Pass protection - B
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B


Moll (Last year when he filled in for Tausch I thought he did better. He's a true RT IMO)

Power run game - D+
Finesse run game - C
Pass protection - D+
Consistency/Reliability - D+
Overall - D+

Clifton

Power run game - C+
Finesse run game - D+
Pass protection - A
Consistency/Reliablity - B+
Overall - B


Tauscher

Power run game - B+
Finess run game - B
Pass protection - D+
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B-


Wells

If Wells comes back I think he'll be a C+ across the board and a B+ in consistency so he's a nice step up from having Moll in there for this year. I don't see him as a long term solution, but right now he's one of our best 5 because of his experience.


Overall I think they're doing OK but they are the weak link of the offense right now becuase they can't be counted on to run the ball with Clifton being a weak run blocker on the left and Moll being a weak run blocker on the right. It equals two weak sides. Because the can't be counted on to run, Rodgers sees a lot of pass heavy defenses and pressures that make it tough to beat a great team like Dallas.



Next season with Sitton I could see them being a stronger run team. Spitz a good, strong center and still getting better. Colledge is now strong enough, consistant and still getting better. I think Sitton will be a good, strong RG and Tausch is a good, strong RT. Even if Tauch leaves I think Moll is a much better RT and while he is a weak guard, I think he's a good, strong RT. NO matter what, I think next years OL is going ot be much more solid in the run game. When teams, like Dallas, want to bring heavy pass rush or play cover 2, we should be able to take advantage of the weak fronts with a more consistent run game.

I do see LT as a logn term problem right now. LT is a very hard position to fill and I do not believe Colledge is a LT. He's a young guy that people were expecting to have man power before he was ready. Now he's ready adn he's a true, well rounded LG that can do a lot of things well. Barbre seems to get set quicker and have a little more length. Maybe he becomes the next LT, but I'm not counting on that. The bottom line is that it would be nice to bring in a uber talented heir apparent to groom for a year or two behind Clifton. Other than that, I like the direction of this line. I think the offense will start peaking next season as a well rounded, dominate offense much like Dallas this year.

[The Gunshooter]

He got beat once, badly, for a sack. Can you please provide other details?

I saw Moll get bitch slapped and thrown aside like a sack of shit. How is he going to ever be more than a weakling?

How about 84 yards rushing and having to max protect because he can't block his way out of paper bag?

[HarveyWallbangers]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080922/PKR01/80922196/1058

Wells’ return would mean that Spitz would move back to right guard, relegating the inconsistent Moll to a backup role again.

Moll struggled with Cowboys nose tackle Jay Ratliff, who had one of the five sacks plus a tackle for a loss. Ratliff beat Moll for a sack of Aaron Rodgers in the third quarter. That came after Ratliff beat him with a power move and had Rodgers in his grasp in the first quarter, but Rodgers managed to slip away. Ratliff got away from Moll twice more in the fourth quarter – once when he got a free shot on Rodgers, whose feet were being held by another defensive player, and again on the second-to-last play of the game when Ratliff got his hands on Rodgers, who managed to escape.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Wells is the obvious and likely player to return as starter.

But I think we should all be pleased and hopeful if Sitton comes off the bench instead of Wells. It means a chance to step forward instead of sideways. (I suppose backwards is always an option too. )

[mraynrand]

If I had to grade the lineman right now using the 3 games, I'd say:

Colledge (I've been impressed with him for the first time. He's a lot stronger and more consistent. He can really do a lot of things well with the movement as well as being OK at traditional power blocking)

Power run game - C
Finesse run game - B
Pass protection - B
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B-


Spitz (would grade him slightly lower if he were at RG because I don't think he's quite as strong as you like but mroe than strong enough at center and much stronger than Wells)

Power run game - B
Finesse run game - B
Pass protection - B
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B


Moll (Last year when he filled in for Tausch I thought he did better. He's a true RT IMO)

Power run game - D+
Finesse run game - C
Pass protection - D+
Consistency/Reliability - D+
Overall - D+

Clifton

Power run game - C+
Finesse run game - D+
Pass protection - A
Consistency/Reliablity - B+
Overall - B


Tauscher

Power run game - B+
Finess run game - B
Pass protection - D+
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B-


Wells

If Wells comes back I think he'll be a C+ across the board and a B+ in consistency so he's a nice step up from having Moll in there for this year. I don't see him as a long term solution, but right now he's one of our best 5 because of his experience.


Overall I think they're doing OK but they are the weak link of the offense right now becuase they can't be counted on to run the ball with Clifton being a weak run blocker on the left and Moll being a weak run blocker on the right. It equals two weak sides. Because the can't be counted on to run, Rodgers sees a lot of pass heavy defenses and pressures that make it tough to beat a great team like Dallas.



Next season with Sitton I could see them being a stronger run team. Spitz a good, strong center and still getting better. Colledge is now strong enough, consistant and still getting better. I think Sitton will be a good, strong RG and Tausch is a good, strong RT. Even if Tauch leaves I think Moll is a much better RT and while he is a weak guard, I think he's a good, strong RT. NO matter what, I think next years OL is going ot be much more solid in the run game. When teams, like Dallas, want to bring heavy pass rush or play cover 2, we should be able to take advantage of the weak fronts with a more consistent run game.

I do see LT as a logn term problem right now. LT is a very hard position to fill and I do not believe Colledge is a LT. He's a young guy that people were expecting to have man power before he was ready. Now he's ready adn he's a true, well rounded LG that can do a lot of things well. Barbre seems to get set quicker and have a little more length. Maybe he becomes the next LT, but I'm not counting on that. The bottom line is that it would be nice to bring in a uber talented heir apparent to groom for a year or two behind Clifton. Other than that, I like the direction of this line. I think the offense will start peaking next season as a well rounded, dominate offense much like Dallas this year.

I agree with everything you wrote, except that you got it totally wrong with Moll in the power run game. How you could give him a D+ is beyond me. It was clearly a flat D grade. Outrageous giving him the plus. You've really lost your ability to be objective.