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Brett Favre, Not A Top Ten Comeback QB?

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  • #31
    On coaches and defense: Favre has played for one of the ten worst coaches for holdng a late lead, but it wasn't Sherman. And several of the top comeback QBs in the list have played for coaches that are very good at holding a late lead (Brady-Belicheck, Bledsoe/Testaverde-Parcells, Dungy-Manning, Collins-Fassel, Bulger-Martz, Plummer-Shanahan, etc.) However, this doesn't explain everything as Plummer, for instance, had most of his comebacks during his days as a Cardinal playing for Tobin.

    from the article...With a test in place for ranking performance, we can then implement another test, an analysis of variance, to help determine responsibility for comebacks and holding leads. An analysis of variance can break down the components of variation between and within groups and help determine which factors (if any) are important. In this study all possible two-way combinations of quarterbacks and coaches were examined. All quarterbacks who have been in a comeback or lead-holding situation under more than one head coach comprised one group. All coaches that have had multiple quarterbacks in comeback or lead-holding situations comprised the other group. Analyses of variance were run on each group, examining comeback ability and the ability to maintain leads, using modified t-test results as the dependent variables.

    The general picture from these analyses of variance is that quarterbacks are more important than coaches in coming from behind to win, and coaches are more important than quarterbacks in holding leads. For example, the results indicate that Tom Brady should maintain a similar ability to bring his team from behind to win regardless of whether or not his coach is Bill Belichick. Furthermore, Bill Belichick should maintain a similar ability to hold on to a one-score, fourth-quarter lead whether or not his quarterback is Tom Brady.

    These results make intuitive sense. A team that is trailing needs to be able to move the ball and score. Calling the right plays in this situation is certainly important, but execution by the quarterback and his surrounding cast is paramount. Meanwhile, a team that leads by a small margin will require a defensive stop, followed by utilization of a clock-killing offensive strategy usually predicated on the running game. This largely negates the quarterback’s role.

    ...
    Turning our attention to head coaches, seven of the last 10 Super Bowls have been won by coaches who rank among the 10 best at holding a one-score, fourth-quarter lead (Table 3). Nine of the top 10 have either been to a Super Bowl or coached in multiple championship games, with the exception being Jim Haslett. Of course, Haslett spent his entire head coaching career with the Saints; he’s good, but he’s not a miracle worker. Interestingly, three of these coaches have been relegated to subordinate jobs: joining Haslett are Jim Fassel and media whipping boy Mike Martz. Readers of Pro Football Prospectus 2005 will not be surprised to see Martz ranked so highly, although Bob Ryan and Michael Wilbon may feel that his inclusion in the top five invalidates the entire study.

    Table 3. Top 10 coaches at holding a lead since 1996
    Rank Coach Wins Losses
    1 Tony Dungy........51 14
    2 Dennis Green......48 13
    3 Bill Belichick........32 5
    4 Bill Parcells.........40 13
    5 Mike Martz..........27 5
    6 Jim Fassel..........35 11
    7 Mike Shanahan...47 18
    8 Jim Haslett.........28 8
    9 Bill Cowher.........44 17
    10 Brian Billick.......27 8

    The worst coaches at holding a one-score, fourth-quarter lead include Marty Schottenheimer and Mike Holmgren (Table 4). Both coaches are long-tenured and boast career records that are more than 50 games over .500. Holmgren has won a Super Bowl and coached in two others. Schottenheimer’s postseason record is horrific, but his teams generally perform very well in the regular season. (He’s the Flip Saunders of football!) Yet they both consistently field teams that get beaten in the fourth quarter more often than they should. George Seifert’s appearance in the bottom 10 might come as a surprise as well. This study includes his time with Carolina, and just one of his glory years with the 49ers.

    Table 4. Bottom 10 coaches at holding a lead since 1996
    Rank Coach Wins Losses
    67 Dom Capers..............25 14
    68 Ted Marchibroda........14 10
    69 Mike Holmgren..........44 22
    70 Jim Mora, Sr..............19 12
    71 Butch Davis...............15 11
    72 Marty Schottenheimer.33 18
    73 Dave Campo...............7 11
    74 George Seifert............11 12
    75 Dennis Erickson..........15 13
    76 Mike Riley...................9 13
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by wausaupackerpro42
      Dude I don't give a crap aboout stats when it comes to this stuff. It's al about heart and that's what Favre has. I don't know how many people would take Plummer over Favre. Would you?
      At this stage of their respective careers? Yes I would. Over the course of their entire careers? Not at all.

      Heart is impossible to know. You think you know it when you see it, but you are just reading comfortable narratives into what you see.

      And posting the article isn't meant to disuade you from thinking Favre is great. I posted it because it was a much better attempt at documenting comebacks than usual commentator banter.
      Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

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      • #33
        I didn't think that at all. I just think Favre is still one of the greatest of all time.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by wausaupackerpro42
          I didn't think that at all. I just think Favre is still one of the greatest of all time.
          i think your totally missing the point. No one would dispute that Favre is one of the greatest quaterbacks in pro football history. The point being made is that on pure "combacks", he may have been praised a little too high. That is what the discussion is for. I peronally dont think there has ever been anybody better than Elway. Montana being a close second.

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          • #35
            Bah Favre is right behind Elway. Favre is one of the most exciting 4th quarter QBs ever to play!
            Swede: My expertise in this area is extensive. The essential difference between a "battleship" and an "aircraft carrier" is that an aircraft carrier requires five direct hits to sink, but it takes only four direct hits to sink a battleship.

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            • #36
              Found it interesting that Favre said on ESPN2 today that he would most like to play with Terrell Owens and Randy Moss "to see if we could get along and put up huge numbers." He also said he liked his guys though. It took him forever to answer the question because you could see he didn't want to slight anybody on the team. When asked who the best corners in the league were he said Champ Bailey, Al Harris, and Charles Woodson.
              "There's a lot of interest in the draft. It's great. But quite frankly, most of the people that are commenting on it don't know anything about what they are talking about."--Ted Thompson

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              • #37
                That can't be true because when asked about terell owens being on the packers Favre was really against it.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by wausaupackerpro42
                  That can't be true because when asked about terell owens being on the packers Favre was really against it.
                  I didn't see the interview, but it's easy to say you'd hypothetically like to play with someone when you don't actually have to do it. It's a little different than wanting them on your team in real life. I can see his point. It would be cool watching Brett and TO slicing up defenses, but would I really want TO to be a Packer? No.
                  "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

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                  • #39
                    Okay. I just needed to clarify.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
                      Found it interesting that Favre said on ESPN2 today that he would most like to play with Terrell Owens and Randy Moss "to see if we could get along and put up huge numbers." He also said he liked his guys though. It took him forever to answer the question because you could see he didn't want to slight anybody on the team. When asked who the best corners in the league were he said Champ Bailey, Al Harris, and Charles Woodson.
                      I saw this as well and posted in another thread. He also said Manning is the best QB, he would've drafted Cutler over Young and Leiny and would trade places with Phil Mickelson if he didn't play football. I also saw his hesitation and thought he could've been more charismatic (not sure how good of a color commentatory he'd be w/ all the 'uhhs', 'ummms').
                      The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have.
                      Vince Lombardi

                      "Not really interested in being a spoiler or an underdog. We're the Green Bay Packers." McCarthy.

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                      • #41
                        The hesitation was because he didn't want to slight anybody on the team when asked who he'd like on the Packers. I told my wife that as we were watching, and knew he'd say something "but I like the guys on the team."

                        He actually said best QB was a tossup between Manning and Brady. His favorite all-time teammate was Frank Winters.
                        "There's a lot of interest in the draft. It's great. But quite frankly, most of the people that are commenting on it don't know anything about what they are talking about."--Ted Thompson

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
                          The hesitation was because he didn't want to slight anybody on the team when asked who he'd like on the Packers. I told my wife that as we were watching, and knew he'd say something "but I like the guys on the team."

                          He actually said best QB was a tossup between Manning and Brady. His favorite all-time teammate was Frank Winters.
                          Thanks - I was channel flipping and just caught the tail end of the 'best QB' comment and missed the comment on Winters. Was he at a Sensodyne convention??? I know he did a commercial or two but that was a weird backdrop. Agreed on his hesitation (not talking bad about teammates) - I'd also say that if we really had some offensive weapons that hesitation wouldn't have been there at all
                          The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have.
                          Vince Lombardi

                          "Not really interested in being a spoiler or an underdog. We're the Green Bay Packers." McCarthy.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Part of it is posted in the NFL section of espn.com. He might have stopped into Pittsburgh for the Twin Rivers Art Festival last week.

                            Start saving on all your favorite Sensodyne sensitive teeth products with our toothpaste coupons. Click to download your Sensodyne coupon now.
                            "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Polaris
                              Originally posted by wausaupackerpro42
                              Regardless of those states I would still take Favre with 2 minutes left and we're down by 6. Favre is still the master.
                              Favre has not succeeded in that scenario since the 2000 season.
                              What in "H" is wrong with you Polaris. Get your facts straight before you piss all over Brett Favre.

                              Don't take away from him what he helped give to us. If you want credibility get your facts straight before you go poping off. . . . PLEASE.

                              In another thread I tried my damnest to show you the facts on at least 9 games since 2001, where Favre was OUR QB for 9 fourth quarter comebacks.

                              If you read it I'm either in you a lier (and I'm not) or maybe you didn't read that post, or maybe you read it and don't have the parts to admit when you are wrong Polaris? What is it man?

                              Tell me Polaris the names of all the QB's in the historical records of the NFL that have . . .more 4th Quarter comebacks? John Elway had I believe 47 to lead all QB's and Favre is credited with 34 such comebacks. Name the QB's that had more than Brett Favre besides John Elway. PLEASE.

                              Back yourself up Polaris, and stick to the facts as you attempt to do so PLEASE.
                              ** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
                              ** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
                              ** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
                              ** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau

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                              • #45
                                woodbuck, Marino has 37.

                                And the football outsiders article has Favre at 16 wins and 34 losses in fourth quarter comebacks since 1996. Plummer (19-28), Manning (19-29), Testaverde (19-29) and Kerry Collins (17-30) all have more wins and less losses in the last 10 years.

                                As stated before, except for Manning, none of them have ever played at Favre's level.

                                As also previously stated, you don't want to always be coming from behind, as that is an indication that your team is mediocre, esp. on D.

                                But it matches my perception that the Packs success in this area has waned over time, especially as the receiving corp was weakened with the possible exception of 2004 and the decline in talent on defense.
                                Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

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