NFL Suspends 6 for Starcaps

[denverYooper]

It is pretty convoluted pb.


Throw in the fact that the policy is black and white supposedly yet there are valid excuses for some makes me shake my head.

It's like real life Law and Order

[sharpe1027]

The NFL specifically warned about these types of diet pills. After they found one example of a bad supplement, they had every reason to believe that there could be other bad supplements. Rather than listing one specific pill as bad, they issued a warning that these types of supplements, generally, were problematic. I imagince that if they were to identify specific supplements, a player taking a different laced-drug would probably cobble together an argument that they avoided the identified supplements.

In the end, the NFL never said they were responsible for warning players and there isn't any reason to believe that the players assumed that the NFL was doing so. Also, the NFL can never know whether the players knew the pills had the illegal substance. The NFL policy was explict that ignorance is no excuse, probably for this exact reason. The players took the risk of taking a supplement they had been warned about and lost. Pretty clear-cut, IMO.

Some one mentioned that the "valid" excuse may have been a doctor prescription. If it truly was a health issue, that's a little different than just trying to cut weight to meet your contract clause.

[pbmax]

The NFL specifically warned about these types of diet pills. After they found one example of a bad supplement, they had every reason to believe that there could be other bad supplements. Rather than listing one specific pill as bad, they issued a warning that these types of supplements, generally, were problematic. I imagince that if they were to identify specific supplements, a player taking a different laced-drug would probably cobble together an argument that they avoided the identified supplements.

In the end, the NFL never said they were responsible for warning players and there isn't any reason to believe that the players assumed that the NFL was doing so. Also, the NFL can never know whether the players knew the pills had the illegal substance. The NFL policy was explict that ignorance is no excuse, probably for this exact reason. The players took the risk of taking a supplement they had been warned about and lost. Pretty clear-cut, IMO.

Some one mentioned that the "valid" excuse may have been a doctor prescription. If it truly was a health issue, that's a little different than just trying to cut weight to meet your contract clause.

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that the players have violated the policy. But by the design of the program, the NFL has put itself in the position of possessing, but being unable to share, information that could help players avoid running afoul of the steroids policy.

In other words, the policy itself causes more positive results. Which is _exactly_ what it is supposed to prevent. That is to say nothing of weight clauses that would seem to be called into question here.

[RashanGary]

In other words, the policy itself causes more positive results. Which is _exactly_ what it is supposed to prevent. That is to say nothing of weight clauses that would seem to be called into question here.

patler summed it up perfectly in three or four sentences. It's a very simple concept. People just can't get to the meaningfull facts because their minds are incapable of separating the meaningless ones.

The policy gives a trusted list and tells players to stick to that list. If a player decides not to and they test positve they are held responsible for not following a suppliment plan that the NFL expects it's employees to follow. Whether you like it or not, whether the players and their agents and lawyers like it or not is not relevant at all. The NFL and the players adopted these rules. They agreed to follow the list of trusted pills or proceed into other suppliments at their own risk. Once you accept that yoru idea of fair is meaningless to this and what the NFL could have done to prevent it is meaningless, I'm sure you'll be able to just accept that the rule as it was written was broken and no team of lawyers or agents can cahnge that. No amount of bitching and writing is going to change it. It's been done. They've been caught and now they're following through with the policy as it was written. Done deal.

[RashanGary]

For the record, I think the NFL did the right thing by not notifying players about star caps. They have a list of trusted pills and that is enough by me. My opinion doesn't matter though. Even if I, and everyone else in this world, felt the NFL was wrong means NOTHING. The rule is there. IT's spelled out. That is all that matters. Now if you want to talk about changing it cuz it's not fair, that is a conversation but whether it was broken or not is not debatable unless you want to get into obscene levels of relativity.

[sharpe1027]

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that the players have violated the policy. But by the design of the program, the NFL has put itself in the position of possessing, but being unable to share, information that could help players avoid running afoul of the steroids policy.

In other words, the policy itself causes more positive results. Which is _exactly_ what it is supposed to prevent. That is to say nothing of weight clauses that would seem to be called into question here.

Heh. More positive results when compared to what? Wouldn't warning players not to take these types of pills, generally, reduce the number of positive results?

One could argue that identifying a single bad supplement might encourage more players to take other drugs under a false assumption that the NFL is screening drugs. If it aint on the no-no list then it must be good right?

Also, why would the NFL stick it's neck out and make claims about a supplement. What if they were wrong? They would probably be sued by the supplement maker. The NFL never claimed to be screening supplements and had a clear policy that warned against the exact type of supplements taken. What possible excuse is there for the players actions? Even if the NFL itself added the illegal drug to the supplement, the players would still be in the wrong (of course so would the NFL).

[pbmax]

patler summed it up perfectly in three or four sentences. It's a very simple concept. People just can't get to the meaningfull facts because their minds are incapable of separating the meaningless ones.

Well I am glad Patler satisfied your curiosity

But while Patler laid a a nice line of reasoning for the players to be punished under the current set of rules, I am discussing something entirely different.

Is the main goal of the Steroid and Drug Policy of the NFL to be logical and internally consistent? If that is the main goal, then they have accomplished it. Congratulations.

But I don't think that is the goal of the program. And I doubt the people who asked for it (some players, public, Congress, health officials, etc.) and those that created it, want that to be the goal. The goal is to remove the influence of steroids, performance enhancing drugs and recreational drugs from the game as much as possible.

In that is the goal, the NFL failed. It took information that could have prevented violations of the policy and withheld it, opening the door for the violations to occur. That specific door will now close, after four teams, six players and an entire league get a black eye for the next two months.

You say the system works. I say its obvious the system can work better.

[pbmax]

For the record, I think the NFL did the right thing by not notifying players about star caps. They have a list of trusted pills and that is enough by me. My opinion doesn't matter though. Even if I, and everyone else in this world, felt the NFL was wrong means NOTHING. The rule is there. IT's spelled out. That is all that matters. Now if you want to talk about changing it cuz it's not fair, that is a conversation but whether it was broken or not is not debatable unless you want to get into obscene levels of relativity.

I also think its a conflict of interest for the NFL to promote and make money off a line of supplements that are approved. The NFL is not willing to test all supplements (and there are practical reasons why such a test would be very difficult) but it is willing to endorse one company's products.

[pbmax]

Heh. More positive results when compared to what? Wouldn't warning players not to take these types of pills, generally, reduce the number of positive results?

If the NFL broadcast the specific product that had tested positive for a prescription drug, then it would have been possible for six fewer positive tests to occur. That's pretty straightforward, no?

One could argue that identifying a single bad supplement might encourage more players to take other drugs under a false assumption that the NFL is screening drugs. If it aint on the no-no list then it must be good right?

Agreed, this is possible. That is why there is communication between the drug policy administrator, the League, teams and the Players Union. To be sure this information gets out repeatedly, from multiple sources, in easy to understand forms. It is not easy, but far more complicated issues of the workplace are communicated daily by thousands of private businesses. I think the NFL can afford to have someone draft a clear letter, very similar to the one that warned of all weight loss supplements. The new letter would have one more example.

Also, why would the NFL stick it's neck out and make claims about a supplement. What if they were wrong? They would probably be sued by the supplement maker. The NFL never claimed to be screening supplements and had a clear policy that warned against the exact type of supplements taken. What possible excuse is there for the players actions? Even if the NFL itself added the illegal drug to the supplement, the players would still be in the wrong (of course so would the NFL).

The NFL has the facts on its side. It has the product, the test and the results. It also probably has a backup test. As long as the NFL doesn't pretend to know more than it does, then they cannot get into trouble. If they don't accuse the company of deliberately placing the substance in StarCaps and they do not claim to know that ALL StarCap capsules are contaminated, then the truth is their defense. They tested a bottle supplied by a player who tested positive for a diuretic. That bottle contained the diuretic. If you don't infer more than the test revealed, then there is no worry.

[sharpe1027]

Well I am glad Patler satisfied your curiosity

But while Patler laid a a nice line of reasoning for the players to be punished under the current set of rules, I am discussing something entirely different.

Is the main goal of the Steroid and Drug Policy of the NFL to be logical and internally consistent? If that is the main goal, then they have accomplished it. Congratulations.

But I don't think that is the goal of the program. And I doubt the people who asked for it (some players, public, Congress, health officials, etc.) and those that created it, want that to be the goal. The goal is to remove the influence of steroids, performance enhancing drugs and recreational drugs from the game as much as possible.

In that goal, the NFL failed. It took information that could have prevented violations of the policy and withheld it, opening the door for the violations to occur. That specific door will now close, after four teams, six players and an entire league get a black eye for the next two months.

You say the system works. I say its obvious the system can work better.

The NFL discouraged use of these types of diet pills. I think you will agree that these warnings would serve to reduced the number of players and teams affected. A few players disregarding the NFL's clear the warnings does not mean that the NFL policy failed.

Your logic seems to suggest that the the NFL gets into the business of issuing statemtns about specific supplements from specific suppliers. I disagree. It is not the NFL's job nor does it make sense for them to start policing substances. I think that it would be a bad precedent and arugable misleading for them to start issuing statements regarding supplement contents. Not to mention it would open the door for lawsuits by the supplement manufacturer.

The NFL issued a warning designed to inform players of potential issues. A select few players ignored the warning and got burned. The policy is not a failure, IMHO.

[sharpe1027]

The NFL has the facts on its side. It has the product, the test and the results. It also probably has a backup test. As long as the NFL doesn't pretend to know more than it does, then they cannot get into trouble. If they don't accuse the company of deliberately placing the substance in StarCaps and they do not claim to know that ALL StarCap capsules are contaminated, then the truth is their defense. They tested a bottle supplied by a player who tested positive for a diuretic. That bottle contained the diuretic. If you don't infer more than the test revealed, then there is no worry.

In a perfect world, maybe. The legal system doesn't work that smoothly and there is worry.

What if the player provided them with a fake bottle? What if the NFL screwed up it's test? What if the supplement was spiked by a distributer/player/other party and not the manufactuer? Ect....

I don't think the NFL is about to start broad-reaching tests of the product designed to establish the source of the problem. Bottomline, I don't think that the NFL should be policing the manufacturers, it is a whole can of worms that makes little sense (big risk, little reward) to open.

[RashanGary]

Why can't the players just stick to the trusted list? The NFL has it spelled out pretty clearly so nobody will ever have a postive test unless they choose to risk it. It's pretty simple really. It's has nothing to do to them being suspended, but sheesh if you want to go here, how much easier for them can it get? Do they have to buy the supplements for them and bring it to their homes too? Damn these guys are dumb fucks and have no sense of personal reponsiblity. Always blame someone else, right?

And if they want to meet their weight clauses has it ever occured to them to ride the bike a little more and eat a little less ice cream? Shit. They have nothing to do all fruckin day. You'd think they could focus on keeping in shape for their job in the offseason. Good gosh, all of htese expectations. How unfair. IF it's so bad, they don't have to stay in the NFL. They have choices.

[Freak Out]

The NFLPA/Players agreed to all of this in the first place.

[Rastak]

I can't believe you are disgussing the merrit of these letters. The rule is that if a supplement that is not on the trusted list is ingested and a test is positive due to the non trusted suppliment (whether the company disclosed to you the ingredients or not), you have broken the policy and are subject to the punishment.

1. Did you ingest a suppliment that was not on the trusted list? YES

2. Did the maker of the suppliment lie to you about what was in it? YES, but the NFL does not trust it and you take it at your own risk so it's a mute point how trusted the maker is because you never should have trusted the maker to begin with. That's why we tell you "take at yoru own risk".

3. Did you test positive? Yes.

Done deal.



They have a point against starcaps but the NFL makes this so very clear. Take the trusted suppliments. Don't take anything else because you cannot be sure what's in it (sometimes shady companies lie, that's why we have a trusted list). It pretty much takes away any excuse that (I didn't know) because all you need to know is it's not on the trusted list. After that, you're takign at your own risk.

This will not get overturned. They patently broke the rule. I can't believe there is any debate. I can't believe there is suprise. I can't believe people think starcaps lying about what is in their pill is an excuse with the way the rule is written. The rule is very, very simple. STick to the list or you're burned. PUre, plain, simple. No wiggle room. (well unless a doctor perscribes apparently)

Apparently Pittman had it proscribed and he got suspended so what's your latest Grady Jackson theory which fits the black and white done deal view you have? I'm still trying to figure that out. ( I mean for myself ).

[Rastak]

One other thing, apparently the Williams lads are in a Henepin county court right now as I type seeking a temporary restraining order, which I think is stupid as hell.


That only grants you a reprieve until a hearing. I'd go for the whole enchilada and get a stay until litigation is resolved.