Why did McCarthy fire most of the staff?

[Guiness]

I was listening to Chmura talk about the D coordinator on his radio show last week. Chmura's take is that schemes are not the problem.

I agree for the most part. Players are the problem. Packers had a run 'o the mill group before the injuries, and after the injures, they had a lousy front 7. You can't win with crapola, no matter what scheme you invent. Eventually you have to block and tackle.

But you cant fire the entire front 7, and someone had to be the scapegoat.

This is true. And McCarthy can't fire Thompson or bad luck.

CC agreeing with someone. Careful, you might lose your curmudgeon rat title. The holiday's must've been nice to you after you got that turkey bone dislodged from your throat!

[swede]

I believe this means Winston Moss is the new DC and wants to run a new system.

Or it could just be that McCarthy doesn't want to fire a guy under consideration for a head job.

Maybe.

Here are some possible scenarios.

*He's going to stay on as a position coach under another guy. Unlike the other coaches Winston Moss is an assistant HC and I don't think it is an undue burden on another new DC to keep just one position coach the HC likes.

*He's the new DC. The only reason not to announce him now is that the Rams HC interview is still in the works. (See AC David above)

*Meet the new coach of the St. Louis Rams.

*You're butt is fired as soon as we know you're not HC of the Rams. (See CPK above)

[texaspackerbacker]

Since I know virtually nothing about defensive schemes, I'll throw out a question that puzzles me. Could GB adapt to a 3-4 and continue to use the "bump & run" secondary with Harris/Woodson? Or does moving to a 3-4 necessitate a change in secondary coverage?

Yes and no. Like a 4-3, depending on the scheme, you can use man (bump or off) or zone (off) coverage. Tampa cover 2 has the corners playing mostly zone/off. The Dallas cover 2 (or whatever it's called) has the corners playing mostly man/bump. Similarly, in a 3-4, you can play either zone or man (bump or off). I think the best defenses can mix it up, but you have to play to your strengths. Woodson could play either system. Harris would get killed playing off coverage.

You definitely can play a 3-4 either with mostly man coverage or mostly zone.

The question is, which do you choose? I don't think it's so much a matter of what Woodson or Harris or Williams can do. It's a matter of which type of coverage works best in an absolute sense. And THAT clearly is man coverage. You give up the bread and butter of the Packers--generating turnovers/interceptions if you go to zone.

As for personnel, I really think Kampman would be suited for the 3-4 if it comes to that. He used to be primarily a run stopper, and his mobility should be as valuable a tool as extra size would be. I would think Harrell if healthy (otherwise Cole) would be decent rotating with Pickett at nose tackle, and Jolly and Montgomery would be decent backups. Barnett and Hawk would seem ideal at ILB--Barnett having established himself as an excellent MLB, and Hawk thought by many to be better suited for the inside. That leaves Bishop, Popinga, and Chillar, all of whom should flourish on the outside, along with Hunter and maybe Thompson.

All in all, we have plenty of suitable personnel, and if anything, a move to 3-4 negates the possible need to sign somebody like Haynesworth or the "need" perceived by some to draft a rush DE.

I could get psyched up to support a move to 3-4--provided it is done with primarily man coverage, and provided it is done with a minimum of blitzing.

[rbaloha1]

Based on keeping Moss, MM probably wants to keep the scheme.

Agree with Chewy -- the scheme is sound. requires refining and more blitzing. Maybe MM wants Moss to be the assistant dc.

3-4 is too much of a change which prevents the Packers reaching the playoffs in 09.

[AV David]

I am open to the 3-4 or a different variant of the 4-3 because sometimes change, even if it is just for the sake of change, is good. It seems like you can either coach the blitz effectively or you cannot. There seems to be no middle ground. The packers haven't been able to blitz effectively for a hell of a long time. I want a DC that knows how to get them home, even if they only blitz a small part of the time.

[Bossman641]

TT is an excellent drafter.

TT has been an OK drafter. He has done well in later rounds and had less success early on. Too soon to tell imo.

We might have different definitions of "success" and "early." I'm looking at rounds 1-3.

2005 - Rodgers in 1, Collins in 2, Murphy in 2 (looked like he'd be good), no 3rd rounds

2006 - Hawk in 1, Colledge and Jennings in 2, Hodge and Spitz in 3

2007 - Harrell in 1, Jackson in 2, Jones and Rouse in 3

2008 - Nelson, Brohm and Lee in 2, Finley in 3

It's definitely to judge to judge the 2008 class, and I'd say it's even too early to judge the 2007. I know everyone expects the GM to hit on every pick, but honestly I'm not sure what else you could expect from TT here.

Rodgers, Jennings, and Collins are Pro-Bowlers (or close). Hawk, Colledge, and Spitz have been up and down. Murphy was unfortunate. The worst pick from the 05 and 06 classes is Hodge. How funny! He was the pick everyone was the most excited about.

Even if you wanna look at the 07 class. Jackson looked 1000% better in year 2, Jones looked good as a rookie and got bit by the injury bug in 08. I can't really defend Harrell other than to say I hope he will finally be healthy next year.

That's a pretty good batting percentage in my book.

[Partial]

He's hit big on Jennings so far. I'm not 100% sold on Collins being a star, but its possible.

The goal is to get three solid starters out of a draft. Part of my concern with the guys picked early is that while a lot of them *are* starters, they're not exactly solid or irreplaceable. So far, they have been inconsistent, or haven't shown much to be particularly solid. I'll go into more details below.

So far, he's done alright at the top. We wouldn't be 6-10 if his drafts were "excellent".

Collins played well his first year, was a player that most wanted replaced in years two and three, and played well in his 4th year. Not consistent enough to know exactly what we're getting yet.

Jennings is a stud, no doubt about it. His production did drop off in the latter part of this year though when he was getting double teamed. That is something that is a bit of a concern to me, as he won't have the room to run after the catch when doubled. Outside of the shoot out NO, he didn't have a particularly strong second half of the year. I'm confident he'll over come it, though.

A-Rod has played about as expected in his 4th year. He's a average to slightly above average quarterback. No where near pro bowl level, but we're not having that discussion in this thread.

Colledge has been awful his first two years, and played better this year. Still, he's too inconsistent to consider him to be great or anything yet. He's average to slightly above average.

Spitz hasn't shown to be anything better than average yet, but I think he has a spot carved out at center.

Hodge is a bust. Never contributed, cut. Bust.

Rouse thus far has been a bust. He has shown a lot of promise, but it seems the coaches don't think he'll be anything more than a back-up safety. Not good for a first day pick. He has boat loads of potential, but it would be hard to justify this as a pick that has contributed to this point.

Murphy got hurt and never played. A poor draft pick when all is said and done (yes, its not his fault the guy got hurt, I get that. Still, picks come down to production and that pick is not producing).

Harrrell has been a collossal bust thus far.

Jackson hasn't exactly lit the world on fire, though I think he has potential. Thus far, he hasn't contributed much more than being an average third down back. You expect more production out of a second round pick.

Jones has shown potential and flashed, but he didn't contribute anything this year, and contributed as a third wideout for about half of last year. Once he hit the wall he didn't do much. I like this guy long term, but I'm not certain the coaches do.

Hawk played about average his first year, had a very solid year last year, and a very poor year this year. That's not exactly consistent, and certainly dissapointing for a top 5 pick. Long term, I think his chances of being a star aren't very good, but I think he'll be solid. Again, very very disappointing for the 5th pick.

Far too soon to judge the 08 group, but Jordy doesn't look like a star, but he looks like he'll be a solid #2 and a good value pick. Hopefully one of the quarterbacks becomes a true star, then our team will be in very good shape.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He's confusing Thompson with Ron Wolf.

[Bossman641]

Rodgers is no where near a pro bowler. Collins is good. Jennings is good. Colledge is ok.

So far, he's done alright at the top. We wouldn't be 6-10 if his drafts were "excellent"

Nowhere near a Pro-Bowler? Look at his stats and play compared to the rest of the league. Not what you "feel" or what you "think." He was in the top 1/4 in almost every passing category in the league.

Did I say excellent? You said he made OK selections in the early round. I think they are far from OK. I'd guess they compare favorably against most teams over the same period.

We also wouldn't have been 6-10 if we weren't trotting out a defense full of 2nd and 3rd stringers.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rodgers is no where near a pro bowler

LOL

Pro Bowl QB (Eli) = 60.3 %, 3238 yards, 6.8 yards/attempt, 21 TDs, 10 interceptions, 86.4 rating

Rodgers = 63.6 %, 4038 yards, 7.5 yards/attempt, 28 TDs, 13 interceptions, 93.8 rating

I guess we only look at win/loss record because stats are meaningless. Thus, Drew Brees is an avergae QB.

[Partial]

Rodgers is no where near a pro bowler

LOL

Pro Bowl QB (Eli) = 60.3 %, 3238 yards, 6.8 yards/attempt, 21 TDs, 10 interceptions, 86.4 rating

Rodgers = 63.6 %, 4038 yards, 7.5 yards/attempt, 28 TDs, 13 interceptions, 93.8 rating

I guess we only look at win/loss record because stats are meaningless. Thus, Drew Brees is an avergae QB.

Not the thread for this. I won't discuss it any further in this thread. We all know that you're a homer and where you stand. NFL scouts support my opinion. It seems only homers around here support yours. Anyway, its not the time or the place. I don't really care one way or another about Aaron. He's played ok. I could bring up his 4th quarter quarterback rating, but again, you'll blabber on and on about how he is so good, and got the team in position to win in the 4th quarter despite only scoring 3-6 points in the second half With that said, I am requesting not to further this discussion in this thread as not to detract from the topic at hand.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I could bring up his 4th quarter quarterback rating, but again, you'll blabber on and on about how he is so good, and got the team in position to win in the 4th quarter despite only scoring 3-6 points in the second half

Ummm... the Packers led the NFL in 4th quarter points.

Rodgers rating on the season = 93.8 rating
Rodgers rating in close games = 93.4 rating
Rodgers rating in games close/late = 93.7 rating
Rodgers rating in the 4th quarter = 87.8 rating (which is considerably higher than Favre's 79.6 rating for his CAREER)

Your perception is clouded.

I will agree Rodgers sucked in the final two minutes, but he had a lot of games where he played great late--just not in the last two minutes. I have faith that will change. He would have been a hero in many games (Minnesota, Chicago, Houston, Carolina, Jacksonville, perhaps Tennessee), if the defense didn't suck so bad. In all of those games, he put the Packers in a position to win late.

[Gunakor]

TT is an excellent drafter.

TT has been an OK drafter. He has done well in later rounds and had less success early on. Too soon to tell imo.

He ran drafts in Seattle too. Shawn Alexander, Marcus Trufant, Darrell Jackson, and Ken Hamlin were all guys Thompson had drafted.

I mentioned this in another thread. Shawn Alexander was NFL MVP the year Seattle went to the Super Bowl, and Aaron Rodgers put up MVP type numbers this year (If you buy into Peyton Manning winning MVP this year anyway). Those were both first round selections. I'd say he's had plenty of success early on. One bad Harrell pick does not amount to an overall poor record early in drafts.

[Partial]

TT is an excellent drafter.

TT has been an OK drafter. He has done well in later rounds and had less success early on. Too soon to tell imo.

He ran drafts in Seattle too. Shawn Alexander, Marcus Trufant, Darrell Jackson, and Ken Hamlin were all guys Thompson had drafted.

I mentioned this in another thread. Shawn Alexander was NFL MVP the year Seattle went to the Super Bowl, and Aaron Rodgers put up MVP type numbers this year (If you buy into Peyton Manning winning MVP this year anyway). Those were both first round selections. I'd say he's had plenty of success early on. One bad Harrell pick does not amount to an overall poor record early in drafts.

Shawn Alexander was great. Traufant was great. Jackson and Hamlin are just guys. They have floated around to several different teams now. I wanted Hamlin in FA but I'm glad we did not opt to go that route.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

Rodgers is no where near a pro bowler

LOL

Pro Bowl QB (Eli) = 60.3 %, 3238 yards, 6.8 yards/attempt, 21 TDs, 10 interceptions, 86.4 rating

Rodgers = 63.6 %, 4038 yards, 7.5 yards/attempt, 28 TDs, 13 interceptions, 93.8 rating

I guess we only look at win/loss record because stats are meaningless. Thus, Drew Brees is an avergae QB.

Not the thread for this. I won't discuss it any further in this thread. We all know that you're a homer and where you stand. NFL scouts support my opinion. It seems only homers around here support yours. Anyway, its not the time or the place. I don't really care one way or another about Aaron. He's played ok. I could bring up his 4th quarter quarterback rating, but again, you'll blabber on and on about how he is so good, and got the team in position to win in the 4th quarter despite only scoring 3-6 points in the second half With that said, I am requesting not to further this discussion in this thread as not to detract from the topic at hand.

You know Partial, pride is a sin. Failing to acknowledge it can be an even bigger one. Not acknowledging the fact Rodgers is a pro-bowl caliber QB statistics wise is either prideful or ignorant. Since the quarterback has such a direct influence on how the defense and special teams play that puts him out of the running for pro bowl consideration.