Saints Hire Williams

[Partial]

The thing I'm a little perturbed about is the notion that the Packers are "missing out" on their "first choices". So far there's been a lot of media speculation about who's the #1 pick for the job, but there hasn't been much in the way of hard and fast details or sources. Do we even know if the job was offered to Nolan or Williams?

If McCarthy didn't see fit to offer the gig to Williams or Nolan, it's likely that he thought there was something about either that didn't fit or wouldn't fit as well as somebody else. He may well be wrong in this estimation, but I'm in no position to speculate either way.

Rumor has it he did offer the job to both. They opted to decline and take other positions. I can understand Nolan as his reason appears legit, but my guess is they didn't pony up for Williams and got outbid.

[Lurker64]

Rumor has it he did offer the job to both. They opted to decline and take other positions. I can understand Nolan as his reason appears legit, but my guess is they didn't pony up for Williams and got outbid.

Rumors can insinuate all sorts of things, true, plausible, or laughable. Do we have any sort of confirmation, even from a journalist that they were offered the job? At the very least, if Nolan and Williams were offered the job, we probably would have heard something from their agents, trying to drum up more value for their clients, right?

I mean, I heard it was rumored that McCarthy offered the job to Flipper, the highly intelligent bottlenose dolphin, but was rebuffed since Green Bay didn't have enough coastline.

[Fritz]

While I agree with Lurker's reasoning, I prefer Partial's avatar.

[Partial]

Rumor has it he did offer the job to both. They opted to decline and take other positions. I can understand Nolan as his reason appears legit, but my guess is they didn't pony up for Williams and got outbid.

Rumors can insinuate all sorts of things, true, plausible, or laughable. Do we have any sort of confirmation, even from a journalist that they were offered the job? At the very least, if Nolan and Williams were offered the job, we probably would have heard something from their agents, trying to drum up more value for their clients, right?

I mean, I heard it was rumored that McCarthy offered the job to Flipper, the highly intelligent bottlenose dolphin, but was rebuffed since Green Bay didn't have enough coastline.

I've definitely read on either JSO or PackersNews that both declined the Packers offers. I'm fairly certain they were in different posts.

[mraynrand]

There seems to be a jelling of opinion here that McDermott would excite the packerrats, Moss would disappoint them, and Haslett would get a mixed reception.

Perhaps it's the idea the there might be something in the Jim Johnson coaching tree.

[pbmax]

I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm glad. Why? Because McDermott is the best candidate out there, and he's not on the market until the Eagles are eliminated. The more teams that fill their DC positions before that happens, the less competition we have to deal with when bidding for his services.

These kind of statements bother me. While I think it is natural to want to give someone a shot and give fresh blood a try, I don't think you necessarily do that when the candidates available are studs. Greg Williams was the 2nd highest paid assistant in the NFL for a reason. He's been known as an absolute stud coordinator for a long, long time.

McDermott is completely unknown. How can he be the best candidate? Some guys work out - Spanulo - some don't - VB.

Caution, Gregg Williams was the second highest paid assistant by the second lowest IQ owner in the NFL. He was paid that much to be Head Coach in waiting. Of course, when Gibbs retired, Little Napoleon decided he had to have an offensive minded head coach.

[pbmax]

The funny thing is that if Thompson is eventually fired, history most likely will remember that Thompson was a good drafter who was conservative yet effective in free agency, who was run out of town by public pressure because he ran Favre out of town.

If we fire him, he won't have a hard time becoming GM of another team, and we would probably have a hard time finding a better GM.

That pressure was there from the day he was hired. It was worse in McCarthy's first season than it was this season, though it seemingly has gotten worse and worse since the day Favre retired.

So the press in Wisconsin is more high pressure and negative than the press in Boston, New York, Washington, Pittsburgh or Dallas? I think Brett might have a word or two for you on that.

The only difference between Green Bay's record on head coaches is that its the GM making the decision, not the owner. As for assistants, Donatell had 4 years to demonstrate his skill. Had another chance in Atlanta. Is now coaching in coaching D in college. Slowik got the bum's rush, hid in the position coach weeds for several years to emerge as the D coordinator in Denver. Where he helped get the previously teflon and bulletproof Mike Shanahan fired. Ray Rhodes firing was so unjustified that he was never a head coach again.

Sanders had three years and with arguably better talent, wasn't appreciably better than the guy who got fired in New Orleans. Injuries hurt him no doubt, but New England and the Giants also suffered big injuries to starters and remained playoff viable and got 11 wins.

Do you know what a good coordinator looks like? He replaces his Hall of Fame QB with a rookie starter, loses starts from both starting tackles as well as his center, doesn't have a his starting RB healthy until the second half and doesn't have his anticipated starting third wide receiver healthy until the last six games. He takes that unit and puts in in the top ten of most offensive categories and top 5 in scoring.

You find a guy that good on the defensive side, and this team makes the playoffs.

[Waldo]

Does anybody know the differences between McDermott's "system" and Haslett's? Both are 4-3 defenses that incorporate zone blitz principles. Why is one magic voodoo scheme better than another?

Is their difference in success solely a difference in player personnel running the systems?

Haslett has gotten pretty high marks as a leader. His team never quit on him this season after Linehan was fired, and he did a commendable job given the circumstances with the Saints in '05, again his team never quit and played hard.

[Gunakor]

I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm glad. Why? Because McDermott is the best candidate out there, and he's not on the market until the Eagles are eliminated. The more teams that fill their DC positions before that happens, the less competition we have to deal with when bidding for his services.

These kind of statements bother me. While I think it is natural to want to give someone a shot and give fresh blood a try, I don't think you necessarily do that when the candidates available are studs. Greg Williams was the 2nd highest paid assistant in the NFL for a reason. He's been known as an absolute stud coordinator for a long, long time.

McDermott is completely unknown. How can he be the best candidate? Some guys work out - Spanulo - some don't - VB.

Part of the problem when hiring someone with years of experience is the fact that NFL teams have seen him and have figured out what he likes to do. McDermott would be somewhat of a suprise to other teams. You'd figure he'd run the same system as Jim Johnson as it's proven effective, but odds are there will be a few wrinkles added to make it different. Being an unknown could be a good thing, at least in the short term.

In any case, I'll take anyone from the Jim Johnson coaching tree for the defense. If you want the best, pick a guy who learned from the best. And Jim Johnson is the best in the business IMO.

[mission]

I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm glad. Why? Because McDermott is the best candidate out there, and he's not on the market until the Eagles are eliminated. The more teams that fill their DC positions before that happens, the less competition we have to deal with when bidding for his services.

These kind of statements bother me. While I think it is natural to want to give someone a shot and give fresh blood a try, I don't think you necessarily do that when the candidates available are studs. Greg Williams was the 2nd highest paid assistant in the NFL for a reason. He's been known as an absolute stud coordinator for a long, long time.

McDermott is completely unknown. How can he be the best candidate? Some guys work out - Spanulo - some don't - VB.

Part of the problem when hiring someone with years of experience is the fact that NFL teams have seen him and have figured out what he likes to do. McDermott would be somewhat of a suprise to other teams. You'd figure he'd run the same system as Jim Johnson as it's proven effective, but odds are there will be a few wrinkles added to make it different. Being an unknown could be a good thing, at least in the short term.

In any case, I'll take anyone from the Jim Johnson coaching tree for the defense. If you want the best, pick a guy who learned from the best. And Jim Johnson is the best in the business IMO.

Good point. I don't remember who was talking about this (Lurker or Patler maybe?) but the idea that fresh blood could bring a defensive scheme wrinkle that might be harder to stop for the next couple years while teams figure it out. Just like any student, there's a moment where you start thinking "i would do THAT differently" when sitting in the shadows of a teacher/mastermind/innovator.

There's no guarantee it all shakes out that way, but I think with some of our talent, plus a few additions, we could be a freakish, ball hawk defense.

[Iron Mike]

I think with some of our talent, plus a few additions, we could be a freakish, ball hawk defense.

<--IM recalls a game in the mid-90s, GB vs. DEN where a graphic was shown on the screen in the 4th quarter as to how many 4th quarter comebacks Elway had to that point. The very next play Reggie White planted Elway's ass into the frozen tundra.


*sigh* http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...24174613.shtml

[hoosier]

I think with some of our talent, plus a few additions, we could be a freakish, ball hawk defense.

<--IM recalls a game in the mid-90s, GB vs. DEN where a graphic was shown on the screen in the 4th quarter as to how many 4th quarter comebacks Elway had to that point. The very next play Reggie White planted Elway's ass into the frozen tundra.


*sigh* http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...24174613.shtml

The Shurmur article points to an important ingredient that has been missing from recent Packer defenses: a consistently strong pass rush. Shurmur's defenses had enough talent up front that they could usually generate enough pressure with just the front four. Not so with the current model. And I have yet to see anything that would make me confident that a Jim Johnson-type scheme would be much better, since it requires the linebackers and safeties to be capable blitzers. Clearly Hawk was an able blitzer once upon a time. Was it just the Sanders scheme that prevented them from becoming effective blitzers? Is it a skill Barnett, Bigby and others can learn, or does something just not click with them?

[Waldo]

I disagree that we haven't been able to generate front 4 pressure. Last year unfortunately we lost two of our top 3 (IMO our top 2) pass rushers, Monty just isn't very good at rushing as a reserve and Thompson was too raw. Even though he doesn't sack a lot, Jenkins wreaks havoc in the backfield and forces the QB out of his comfort zone. Much more than Kamp. KGB was a considerably better pass rusher than Kamp on a per snap basis.

Next year we'll get Jenkins back, he is the most important piece. We need to fill KGB's void, but there are options. If Suggs hits FA and TT gets lucky, he could be the answer. There are a few good pass rushers at #9 that could provide a rush immediately in the role that KGB was in. Those guys to would also be able to grow into more complete players, either as ends or SLB/RuDE's. If not there are several RuDE's available in the 3rd-4th round area that aren't good for much more than a RuDE and ST player. A DT that can rush would be a nice add too, there are a few that might be available in FA, and I'm sure that DT will be addressed via the draft even if a FA is brought in.

[pbmax]

Haslett has run 3-4 and 4-3 systems and knows LeBeau's and Dom Capers zone blitz scheme. But in his time at NO and St Louis, he ran 4-3.

McDermott is riskier, there is no getting around that. Like Sanders, he has never called his own D. But unlike Sanders, he is on the mind of most teams in the NFL when it comes time to hire for defense and Reid hasn't wanted him to leave. This may ultimately mean little, as other hot coordinators/staff have failed too.

But Jim Johnson's scheme isn't predicated on the zone blitz, if by zone blitz you mean rushing from a LB or CB and dropping a big body into a zone. He apparently uses so many types of blitzes, that people have been unable to come up with a name for it yet, besides "Jim Johnson's system".

As for having capable blitzers, that goes both ways. You can blitz a linebacker with 4 D lineman and have 5 one on one matchups in pass rush. Or the O line can choose to double team someone and use a RB to block the LB. Unless you have a dominant pass rusher (say KGB prior to injury), that usually favors the O line.

Johnson seems to prefer to overload, that is, send someone from a side where there is not a body to block him. Then it isn't a matter of physically defeating the opponent, but winning a foot race.

[pbmax]

I think with some of our talent, plus a few additions, we could be a freakish, ball hawk defense.

<--IM recalls a game in the mid-90s, GB vs. DEN where a graphic was shown on the screen in the 4th quarter as to how many 4th quarter comebacks Elway had to that point. The very next play Reggie White planted Elway's ass into the frozen tundra.


*sigh* http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...24174613.shtml

And that is the conundrum that is the draft. Teams have wasted more picks on pass rushing D lineman in the first two rounds than any other position, perhaps QBs. If we had a Reggie White still, we would all look smarter.