"They've really got themselves a defensive staff"

[Waldo]

With all the close games this year, all we had to do was stop one drive per game and we're in the playoffs. I think a disciplined, inspired unit would accomplish it. That's without any upgrade in personnel on the field!

For how much our local press hammers the talent level of our defense, do they not realize we are missing only 2 top tier backup (Williams, KGB) from the same unit of 2007, and the only old guys are part of the position group playing the best, and with the best depth. IMO we are health, good coaching, a few depth players, and a legit second pass rusher from being back to a top defense.

[Badgerinmaine]

Re: "They've really got themselves a defensive staff&am

My thoughts exactly. Lebeau rose up through the defensive backfield coaching ranks too, so is't safe to say he knows what he's talking about.

And he was a pretty good DB back in the day for the Lions, too. And why don't they take player shots like this one of LeBeau anymore?

[Partial]

Besides, we had a 5 and got Hawk with it. Who wouldn't give up Hawk for Peppers?

I wouldn't. I'm almost entirely confident that Hawk can do well in the 3-4, but I'm not sure that Peppers can. If we were still playing a 4-3 and wanted Peppers to play end opposite Kampman, I'd be all for it, but with the 3-4? I'm not sure. Peppers is a great athlete, but I'm not sure he's not too stiff to play in space. Do we think he can play DE in the 3-4?

Personally, I'd rather get a guy like Canty or Olshansky in FA to play DE opposite Jenkins, use the money saved over Peppers to lock up Jennings longterm, take the BPA at #9, and draft a guy like Larry English or Paul Kruger for WOLB later.

Peppers is a great player, but if he can't play OLB in this scheme, do we really want to pay what he costs for a 3-4 DE? Remember, it's always a risk to expend a lot of resources on a guy playing a position he hasn't played before, and you're only guessing he can adapt to it. For those of you who watched Jets games last year, how many thought Vernon Gholston was worthy of the #6 overall pick to play 3-4 OLB, even taking into account his considerable physical gifts and the fact that he schooled the #1 overall pick repeatedly while playing as a 4-3 DE?

So what I gather from your most recent posts is that you claim to watch a ton of Wake Forest football for god knows what reason, but you clearly do not watch the Panthers.

They drop Peppers into coverage all the time. He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close. Furthermore, I don't recall seeing Gholston school Jake Long. Not many people have.

Clearly you'd rather take a risky unknown player like Gholston at #9, then get a known entity in his prime. That to me is really, really stupid. Even if they're spectacular, they're NOT going to be better than Peppers, because that is damn near impossible to do.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I'd give up the #9 pick for Peppers in a heart beat. At 9, there is no guarantee you're getting a good player, let alone a stud. The chances they get someone of Peppers level are very slim imo.

Peppers is a top 10 player in the NFL. That is the kind of guy you do what it takes to get.

I wouldn't. I want a stud free agent AND a great player at #9. If getting Peppers requires trading for him then I don't want him. Otherwise I would be very happy to get him.

But like I said before getting Suggs who is younger, very good, has experience in the 3-4, and cheaper would be a better move. Plus you would have more money to give extensions and possibly sign another free agent.

[HarveyWallbangers]

They drop Peppers into coverage all the time.

Apparently, you don't watch much of the Panthers either.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

[Lurker64]

The fact of the matter is that maybe Peppers can play OLB well in Capers scheme and maybe he can't, but we (as football fans) are in no position to say whether he can or can't based on what we've seen or what we think. Essentially everybody currently employed by the Packers on the defensive coaching or scouting side of the operation is in a much better position to speculate about Peppers after a change in position than either of us are.

What Thompson ought to do is go to Capers and say "Hey, would Julius Peppers be a good fit in this defense?" and then go to Greene and Trgovak and ask them if Peppers would be a good fit in this defense, and if so at what position. Then he ought to ask his pro-scouting staff and ask them what they think about Peppers at that position. Then if the consensus is largely "yes", sign the guy if the deal makes sense for both parties.

The fact that Partial loves Peppers and some of us are skeptical should have no bearing whatsoever on what should happen. If Capers doesn't think he would fit well at OLB in this defense, we shouldn't sign him. I trust Dom Capers a lot more than Partial.

Then, we need to realize that even professional football staffs can fail to accurately predict a player's potential at a different position or in a different scheme (e.g. Gholston, Archuleta, etc.)

[Guiness]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Not sure what you're trying to say here HW? I'm not sure which player you are saying you like better. Gholston has better measureables, but plays like Jane - but Peppers might not play well at OLB? Maybe you're just saying it's not cut and dried.



btw I had no idea Peppers was 300lbs!!! That's pretty big for a quick DE, and huge for an OLB, even in a 3-4, isn't it? At that weight, wouldn't he be a candidate for a 3-4 DE?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Not sure what you're trying to say here HW?

Refuting this.

And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

[mraynrand]

Re: "They've really got themselves a defensive staff&am

My thoughts exactly. Lebeau rose up through the defensive backfield coaching ranks too, so is't safe to say he knows what he's talking about.

And he was a pretty good DB back in the day for the Lions, too. And why don't they take player shots like this one of LeBeau anymore?

They should. That's good stuff. Perhaps it's because it looks too much like:

[Lurker64]

btw I had no idea Peppers was 300lbs!!! That's pretty big for a quick DE, and huge for an OLB, even in a 3-4, isn't it? At that weight, wouldn't he be a candidate for a 3-4 DE?

Prototype 3-4 DEs run about 6'6" 310. My concern is that Peppers might be a tad oversized (read, underathletic) for a 3-4 OLB and undersized to play DE in the 3-4. Regardless, the amount of money he's going to get paid is not an amount generally paid to 3-4 DEs not named Richard Seymour. So if you sign him to a big contract it's going to be as an OLB. Peppers is an amazing athlete for a 4-3 DE, but the standards for athleticism differ from position to position (obviously). You wouldn't want to take Peppers from a position where he is one of the premier athletes and dominators at that position and try to get him to do something else.

I don't think that Peppers was serious about wanting to play in a 3-4 either, I just think he was trying to get out of Carolina and he wanted to maximize his marketability. He's going to want to be a 4-3 DE where he ends up, since 4-3 DEs get the big money, while 3-4 DEs and 3-4 OLBs don't. To get Peppers you're going to have to pay premier 4-3 DE money for a 3-4 OLB, which is basically unheard of.

[Guiness]

Not sure what you're trying to say here HW?

Refuting this.

And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Ah. I took your comment in isolation. My brain has a built in filter, and it seems to have kicked in on anything Partial has written in this thread!

[Partial]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

My god, are you that dense?

Speed...Gholston is faster. Strength..Gholston is stronger. Clearly, BY YOUR OWN DEFINTION gholston has more athletic ability.

[Partial]

He's already a dominant pass rusher. There is no doubt that he can be incredible in a 3-4. Why wouldn't he be? He already does all of those same things on regular basis and is quite good at them.

Gholston is a rookie. And he's no where near Peppers league in terms of athletic ability. Not even in close.

Peppers = 4.74 40, 22 bench reps
Gholston = 4.67 40, 37 bench reps (most at the combine)

The differences: Peppers is 300 lbs and Gholson is 264 lbs. Gholston is a workout warrior. He looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane. It's possible Peppers would be a fantastic 3-4 OLB, but it's also possible that he wouldn't be nearly as good as you think he'd be.

Speed + strength != athletic ability. Remember when we brought in that world class sprinter at receiver. How did that pan out?

My god, are you that dense?

Speed...Gholston is faster. Strength..Gholston is stronger. Clearly, BY YOUR OWN DEFINTION gholston has more athletic ability.

My definition? I said they're not equal. Clearly you're not a very bright person.

I haven't seen Gholston play basketball on a final four team. I haven't seen Gholston win state championships as both a Sprinter and a triple jumper in the south. He may have, I have no idea, but even so, then he is a tremendous athlete, not a tremendous athlete with unreal size and stature.