2009: Another Slow Start in the Cards?

[Bretsky]

I'd consider anything less than a divisional title a failure next year for sure

So you're not on board with winning the superbowl as a wildcard team, then?

One step at a time........however....wouldn't complain about that scenario at all

[Gunakor]

Here's the thing, Pete ...

You're basically breaking it down into "Favre supporters" and "TT butt rammers" ... the verbiage, I'm fine with... I'm a big boy.

First of all, it's not so black and white.

The most logical, easy to understand concept I can try to get you to understand is really pretty simple.

TT is the Green Bay Packers' General Manager. The decisions he makes impact the team we root for and wish to do well. So obviously we tend to give him the benefit of the doubt since we have no choice anyway.

Brett Favre is a player who used to play for the Green Bay Packers and now has nothing to do with the team's success. One way or the other... the words he says, the passes he throws ... anything and everything he does has nothing to do with how this team performs.

It's pretty easy to see why people tend to be verbally supportive of TT ... we WANT him to do well. It's OUR team.

It's also pretty easy to see why some people don't give a damn about Favre right now. They don't consider emotional factors in their decision making ... just logic, right-here-and-now, what actually matters kind of things.

If you don't get that, I mean... what can anyone say?

All that is understood, but me as a guy who thinks TT is doing a crap job, shouldn't be treated like shit cuz I have a different opinion.. Treating people like that isn't the right way to go about Anythig either

Nobody started anything with you until you jumped in to defend Favre calling TT supporters butt rammers - twice. And why you felt the need to jump in and defend Favre in this thread is beyond me, because nobody really said anything negative about him in the first place.

All that was originally said was that the team wouldn't have that drama hanging over their heads all summer, and that would likely translate to a faster start because there would be far less distraction while preparing for the new season. Nothing negative about Favre at all, just one positive outlook on the new season. Then you gave your butt rammers quip. You started it.

And then you bitch about why we single you out?

[cpk1994]

I feel better already. And I had forgotten that the pall of the Favre drama will not be hanging over the team this year.

I'm glad.. Gives TT butt rammers one less excuse to use when this team falls flat again and his record as GM gets even worse because he sits on his hands and thinks he's better than anyone that's ever drafted a team in the NFL..

What useful purpose did this serve? We're past this type of stuff. As a final warning, my quarter is two headed and I'll be looking for tails. In short, if this keeps up, you won't be coming back...

What was the point? It was saying TT is too arrogant to properly do his job to the fullest and that his followers, the butt rammers, are too blind to see that and after this next season.. They won't have Favre to blame.. Not a hard concept to follow

Just cuz u don't agree with the point I'm making, doesn't make it wrong..

Ps. If were truely past this why was the Favre drama ok to bring up and not TT's inability to do his job right?

Two things, PP. First, the "Favre drama" was simply my noting - in a thread about whether the Pack will start slow in 09 - that one factor in the Packers' favor this year is that they won't have the tension of last year from Favre's change of mind.

Secondly, had you originally said "TT's inability to do his job right," people might've disagreed, but you wouldn't be being threatened to be booted from the forum. I believe it was the "butt rammer" reference that did it.

Are you getting any of this?

Now just think how many times I've been called smething in a thread for supporting brett and being on that side... Don't see any mods or administrators coming down on them ever.... Ever!

I think JH and I call bull on this statement.

[texaspackerbacker]

Itd be great to get a game changer either on O or D this offseason it would help a lot[/quote]

Game changer? You mean like Charles Woodson or Nick Collins?

Or maybe like Greg Jennings or Ryan Grant in '07--hopefully he gets back to that? Or like Aaron Rodgers?

I'd settle for a solid O Line--either from parts on hand or a new piece or two, and a 3/4 Defense made up of players already there that hits the ground runnin' and gets the job done right from the start--and Grant playing like he did in '07.

[bobblehead]

I feel better already. And I had forgotten that the pall of the Favre drama will not be hanging over the team this year.

I'm glad.. Gives TT butt rammers one less excuse to use when this team falls flat again and his record as GM gets even worse because he sits on his hands and thinks he's better than anyone that's ever drafted a team in the NFL..

Just curious. If we go 12-4 and win the division and first round bye and win a playoff game or 2 or 3.....are you going to man up and admit you were wrong?

I'm looking at this as a make or break year. I believe in TT, but another stinker like last year...or even 8-8 and I will be ready for change.

[cheesner]

Here's the thing, Pete ...

You're basically breaking it down into "Favre supporters" and "TT butt rammers" ... the verbiage, I'm fine with... I'm a big boy.

First of all, it's not so black and white.

The most logical, easy to understand concept I can try to get you to understand is really pretty simple.

TT is the Green Bay Packers' General Manager. The decisions he makes impact the team we root for and wish to do well. So obviously we tend to give him the benefit of the doubt since we have no choice anyway.

Brett Favre is a player who used to play for the Green Bay Packers and now has nothing to do with the team's success. One way or the other... the words he says, the passes he throws ... anything and everything he does has nothing to do with how this team performs.

It's pretty easy to see why people tend to be verbally supportive of TT ... we WANT him to do well. It's OUR team.

It's also pretty easy to see why some people don't give a damn about Favre right now. They don't consider emotional factors in their decision making ... just logic, right-here-and-now, what actually matters kind of things.

If you don't get that, I mean... what can anyone say?

All that is understood, but me as a guy who thinks TT is doing a crap job, shouldn't be treated like shit cuz I have a different opinion.. Treating people like that isn't the right way to go about Anythig either

You are not treated how you are because of what you think. You are treated the way you are because of how you express yourself. Dr. Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Lincoln, etc were great because they not only had great ideas, but they expressed them well and were heard. If they chose to get their point across through farting and tap dancing, you would not know their names today.

Let me try and help you out.

I usually make it a point not to read your posts, you say the same things in a ridiculous way. The only time I do is when someone puts your quote in their response.


"I believe you overestimate TT's qualities as a GM for several reasons. First, he . . . ."

"You are a TT butt rammer. TT sucks as a GM and he should be run out of town"

Do you see the differences in these statements above? One is respectful and provokes an intelligent discussion, the other does not. I am not sure why you come here, most come hear to gain insight and information on a team we really enjoy. You apparently come here to argue and to attack people. I would estimate your age to be 14-16 and you are going to have to learn at some point how to present your thoughts in an effective manner as this will help you in your career, marriage, freindships, etc.

So the reason why you do not get any respect, you don't deserve any. In the future, don't post in anger. Don't post any condescending terms for other posters. Don't feel the need to post the same sentiment in every thread. And post only statements backed up by logic, statistics, etc. Read carefully the posts of one of the more respected posters on this site, Palter. You will find all of his posts to be well reasoned and put in a straight forward, non-insuluting way. Palter has far more influence on the thoughts and opinons of this board than most. And isn't that the point of posting - debating aspects of the Packers to affect opinions?

[retailguy]

you guys can stop responding to pacopete and get back to the discussion at hand. He won't be replying to your messages any time in the near future.

thanks.

[cpk1994]

I feel better already. And I had forgotten that the pall of the Favre drama will not be hanging over the team this year.

I'm glad.. Gives TT butt rammers one less excuse to use when this team falls flat again and his record as GM gets even worse because he sits on his hands and thinks he's better than anyone that's ever drafted a team in the NFL..

Just curious. If we go 12-4 and win the division and first round bye and win a playoff game or 2 or 3.....are you going to man up and admit you were wrong?

I'm looking at this as a make or break year. I believe in TT, but another stinker like last year...or even 8-8 and I will be ready for change.

This gets a little tricky considering the massive changes on "D". If he goes 8-8, he has aonther year imo. If the Packers go 6-10 or worse, then I probably would believe they should get ready to change. But I won't go as far as saying win the division or bust.

[MadtownPacker]

Anything less then a playoff game (wildcard or div title) means M3 should be fired and TT should get one last shot (2 to 3 years) to put together a winner.

[KYPack]

Anything less then a playoff game (wildcard or div title) means M3 should be fired and TT should get one last shot (2 to 3 years) to put together a winner.

At least a winning record with the team in contention all year.

I'd like to see the statistics onteams that install a 3-4. I did a thread on the Pack when they went to a 3-4 in '80. their poor '79 defense was better than the '80 team. It takes a good bit of time for the D to gel in a new scheme.

'Ol MM might have bit off more than he can chew with this latest move.

[retailguy]

Anything less then a playoff game (wildcard or div title) means M3 should be fired and TT should get one last shot (2 to 3 years) to put together a winner.

At least a winning record with the team in contention all year.

I'd like to see the statistics onteams that install a 3-4. I did a thread on the Pack when they went to a 3-4 in '80. their poor '79 defense was better than the '80 team. It takes a good bit of time for the D to gel in a new scheme.

'Ol MM might have bit off more than he can chew with this latest move.

That's my thought KY. I just don't think defenses are "plug and play". Too many new personnel, too many new schemes, terminology, processes and such.

Yeah, I've heard the lines about (most players) having played in it in the past (high school, college, other NFL teams), but I'm not buying it.

It takes time to gel, and in a 16 game season, you don't have very much.

They surprised me in 2007, but I don't think they'll do that again.

Today, I'm not optimistic.

[Lurker64]

I think it's shortsighted to say things like "unless x happens, y ought to be fired." If the Packers go 11-5 and miss the playoffs (like the Patriots this year) is that a sign of tremendous failure by the Packers brass? If the Packers go 8-8, win a wildcard, and win the superbowl that's definitely a win in most of our eyes. If the Packers suffer several season ending injuries to key players in the first game and struggle to make it to .500, does anybody think that people ought to get fired?

Too early to say.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Today, I'm not optimistic.

You are never optimistic.


The thing that gives me hope is this:

1991 - Pittsburgh's defense with a 4-3 = 24th in points allowed, 22nd in yards allowed
1992 - Pittsburgh's defense with a 3-4 under Capers = 2nd in points allowed, 13th in yards allowed

1998 - Jacksonville's defense with a 4-3 = 17th in points allowed, 25th in yards allowed
1999 - Jacksonville's defense with a 3-4 under Capers = 1st in points allowed, 4th in yards allowed

2008 - Green Bay's defense with a 4-3 = 23rd in points allowed, 20th in yards allowed
2009 - Who knows? But at least Capers has shown he can pull this off. Twice.

I'm a glass half full kind of guy. I doubt fans of those teams thought their defensive turnarounds would happen so quickly.

[Patler]

Offensively, the key is the running game. The Packers really need to see the 2007 Ryan Grant, not the 2008 version.

I think their is a good chance of seeing the 2007 Ryan Grant. This year he will come in fully healthy and able to fully participate in all activities as he doesn't have a contract to worry about.

I like Grant. Always have from his days at ND. But....

Grant still has to prove that he can stay healthy for an entire season. One of the reasons that he had a nondescript career at Notre Dame, and as a result was not drafted, was a problem staying on the field. When there, he performed very well, and he didn't miss extended time, but was often "nicked up." He was passed (or caught) in the depth chart when he wasn't 100% and had to come out at times. As a result, he didn't lock down his starting role and in his Junior season he gave an opportunity back to Julius Jones. As a Senior, he opened the door for Darius Walker, a freshman.

Of course didn't play in NY. 2007 was a half season+ in GB. 2008 was injury marred.

If I recall correctly, it was often a hamstring problem that bothered him at ND. When he first came from the Giants, he missed practices the first or second week in GB because of a hamstring. Then, last year, a hamstring issue again.

Grant can be an asset, but the Packers need someone behind him that can be counted on.

[retailguy]

Today, I'm not optimistic.

You are never optimistic.


The thing that gives me hope is this:

1991 - Pittsburgh's defense with a 4-3 = 24th in points allowed, 22nd in yards allowed
1992 - Pittsburgh's defense with a 3-4 under Capers = 2nd in points allowed, 13th in yards allowed

1998 - Jacksonville's defense with a 4-3 = 17th in points allowed, 25th in yards allowed
1999 - Jacksonville's defense with a 3-4 under Capers = 1st in points allowed, 4th in yards allowed

2008 - Green Bay's defense with a 4-3 = 23rd in points allowed, 20th in yards allowed
2009 - Who knows? But at least Capers has shown he can pull this off. Twice.

I'm a glass half full kind of guy. I doubt fans of those teams thought their defensive turnarounds would happen so quickly.

Ok, Ok, I deserved that.

I appreciate seeing these statistics. I did not know these things. My only recollection of Capers was as the Houston coach. I knew he was supposed to be a defensive guru, but truthfully really didn't know that much about him.

On the one hand, I'm encouraged by the reports I read earlier about the depth of the talent on the Green Bay defense, but, again just can't see them putting it together so quickly.

I'd love them to prove me wrong! But, in Green Bay, it just seems that they have to work really hard to get the fundamentals down. Maybe Capers will change that. Maybe.

You cheered me up some! That's a good thing.