Bottom Line - Kampman is going to have trouble as 3-4 olb

[Waldo]

Re: Kampman

Kampman will have no trouble rushing the QB. In fact, I would expect him to be better due to having more space to work with. My worry with this change is that offensive coordinators will try to isolate Kampy in coverage.

To expect him to cover RB's in the flat would be insane. We've all seen Hawk have trouble with it. Poppinga could'nt cover a back to save his life. Even Barnett has had games where he was badly out-played in this area.

If you go back to all those 4th quarter blunders we had, take a look at how many of those games we lost because our LB's could'nt cover the flats. I believe Capers knows this is a major weakness. It is crucial, Thompson finds someone, either through the draft or FA at the other outside LB spot that can cover. This change won't succeed without it. You can hide one OLB with cover weakness as long as the other one has it as a strength.

Kamp can run just as fast as Barnett and Hawk.

Kamp - 4.65 40, 4.09 shuttle
Barnett - 4.67 40, 4.08 shuttle
Hawk - 4.59 40, 3.96 shuttle
Chillar - 4.71 40, 4.09 shuttle
Poppinga - 4.59 40, 4.39 shuttle

Their change of direction ability (shuttle) has a lot to do with how well they can cover.

GB's LB's are exceptionally good at covering relative to other teams. They were also put in a scheme that required them to cover exceptionally well. Few teams in the NFL ask their SLB to cover man to man, for most teams it is the will and mike that have that job. For 3-4 teams that is the task of the jack and mike. Is Merriman a major weakness because he sucks at coverage (he does)?

GB's poor flat coverage had a lot to do with our man to man coverage, DB's weren't part of the solution because they had to stick to their guy like glue and look at him, not the play. Man to man teams will always be weak on the edges, what you gain in decreased completion %, you lose in ability to stop short passes from going for decent gains. Most teams stopped running mostly man coverage in part because the typical attack of the WCO philosophy chewed it up.

Capers has already said that were probably going to play a lot more zone on non-3rd and long.

There is a big philosophical difference, cover a RB in the flats in man, if he beats the coverage he'll get a good # of yards, but he won't catch it as often. Cover him in zone with a guy downfield, he's gonna catch a lot more passes, but chances are is the defender is in position it will only be for a couple yards at most. Does Kamp have problems with open field tackling? That will be his primary coverage responsibility, whack a guy as soon as the ball gets to him. Getting in there to play like Harris is not what they are going to be asked to do.

[sharpe1027]

Re: Kampman

Kampman will have no trouble rushing the QB. In fact, I would expect him to be better due to having more space to work with. My worry with this change is that offensive coordinators will try to isolate Kampy in coverage.

To expect him to cover RB's in the flat would be insane. We've all seen Hawk have trouble with it. Poppinga could'nt cover a back to save his life. Even Barnett has had games where he was badly out-played in this area.

If you go back to all those 4th quarter blunders we had, take a look at how many of those games we lost because our LB's could'nt cover the flats. I believe Capers knows this is a major weakness. It is crucial, Thompson finds someone, either through the draft or FA at the other outside LB spot that can cover. This change won't succeed without it. You can hide one OLB with cover weakness as long as the other one has it as a strength.

Can either of Pittsburgh's OLB's cover a back in the flat? I think not, yet they are still one of the best Defenses.

Kamp will be in zone coverage when they don't send him on a blitz, and they will probably blitz him pretty often.

[Deputy Nutz]

Re: Kampman

Kampman will have no trouble rushing the QB. In fact, I would expect him to be better due to having more space to work with. My worry with this change is that offensive coordinators will try to isolate Kampy in coverage.

To expect him to cover RB's in the flat would be insane. We've all seen Hawk have trouble with it. Poppinga could'nt cover a back to save his life. Even Barnett has had games where he was badly out-played in this area.

If you go back to all those 4th quarter blunders we had, take a look at how many of those games we lost because our LB's could'nt cover the flats. I believe Capers knows this is a major weakness. It is crucial, Thompson finds someone, either through the draft or FA at the other outside LB spot that can cover. This change won't succeed without it. You can hide one OLB with cover weakness as long as the other one has it as a strength.

I think your opinion of Hawk covering running backs is false, he is quite good dropping into the flat and picking up the back, probably the only thing I can say he is above average at.

Kampman is going to be a rotation guy, just like 75% of the defense. He isn't going to be playing 70 snaps anymore.

[Waldo]

Re: Kampman

Kampman will have no trouble rushing the QB. In fact, I would expect him to be better due to having more space to work with. My worry with this change is that offensive coordinators will try to isolate Kampy in coverage.

To expect him to cover RB's in the flat would be insane. We've all seen Hawk have trouble with it. Poppinga could'nt cover a back to save his life. Even Barnett has had games where he was badly out-played in this area.

If you go back to all those 4th quarter blunders we had, take a look at how many of those games we lost because our LB's could'nt cover the flats. I believe Capers knows this is a major weakness. It is crucial, Thompson finds someone, either through the draft or FA at the other outside LB spot that can cover. This change won't succeed without it. You can hide one OLB with cover weakness as long as the other one has it as a strength.

I think your opinion of Hawk covering running backs is false, he is quite good dropping into the flat and picking up the back, probably the only thing I can say he is above average at.

Kampman is going to be a rotation guy, just like 75% of the defense. He isn't going to be playing 70 snaps anymore.

Hawk is one of the most reliable tacklers in the NFL. Packer fans take this for granted. They shouldn't. He is one of the only LB's that can reliably take down a guy like AD in space virtually every try by himself.

[Packnut]

Re: Kampman

Kampman will have no trouble rushing the QB. In fact, I would expect him to be better due to having more space to work with. My worry with this change is that offensive coordinators will try to isolate Kampy in coverage.

To expect him to cover RB's in the flat would be insane. We've all seen Hawk have trouble with it. Poppinga could'nt cover a back to save his life. Even Barnett has had games where he was badly out-played in this area.

If you go back to all those 4th quarter blunders we had, take a look at how many of those games we lost because our LB's could'nt cover the flats. I believe Capers knows this is a major weakness. It is crucial, Thompson finds someone, either through the draft or FA at the other outside LB spot that can cover. This change won't succeed without it. You can hide one OLB with cover weakness as long as the other one has it as a strength.

Can either of Pittsburgh's OLB's cover a back in the flat? I think not, yet they are still one of the best Defenses.

Kamp will be in zone coverage when they don't send him on a blitz, and they will probably blitz him pretty often.

Don't know what your watching but I've seen Pitt's OLB's make several plays on RB's in the flat. Also, they have a guy at saftey who makes plays all over the field. We have no where near the talent on D that the Steelers do so obviously we can't do what they do.

[sharpe1027]

Re: Kampman

Don't know what your watching but I've seen Pitt's OLB's make several plays on RB's in the flat. Also, they have a guy at saftey who makes plays all over the field. We have no where near the talent on D that the Steelers do so obviously we can't do what they do.

I was watching the games, thank you very much. You are applying one standard for the Packers and another for Pittsburgh. The Packers LBers also made "several plays on RB's in the flat" last year, what games were you watching?

The difference is that the Packer's LBers were generally asked to man up on the RBs with little or no help because everyone behind them was also locked up in man coverage (a very different scheme than in Pittsburgh). So, sure the Packer's LBers were seen trailing a TE or RB in the flat more than in Pittsburgh. You can't reasonably compare the two without more thought going into your comparison.

Also, nobody said we could go from last years performance to what Pittsburgh does in one off-season. That still doesn't mean that Kampman will be need to man up on a RB in the flat very often, or ever.

Look, Kampman may struggle and not work out or he may find he was born to play OLB. Until he gets on the field, I think you are jumping the gun to write him off. He worked his ass off to become a DE, when he was originally a LBer, nobody thought he would succeed at that, for the opposite reasons (too small, not strong enough, not able to play with his hand down, ect...). Going back to a LBer position where he will be asked to blitz a lot doesn't seem like an impossibility to me, in fact, it seems like a damn good fit.

[rbaloha1]

Re: Kampman

To expect him to cover RB's in the flat would be insane. We've all seen Hawk have trouble with it. Poppinga could'nt cover a back to save his life. Even Barnett has had games where he was badly out-played in this area.

If you go back to all those 4th quarter blunders we had, take a look at how many of those games we lost because our LB's could'nt cover the flats. I believe Capers knows this is a major weakness. It is crucial, Thompson finds someone, either through the draft or FA at the other outside LB spot that can cover. This change won't succeed without it. You can hide one OLB with cover weakness as long as the other one has it as a strength.

Good point. Kampy may not be a true 3-4 olb. More the hybrid type with minimal pass coverage responsibilities.

[rbaloha1]

Re: Kampman

[quote="Waldo"]

Kamp can run just as fast as Barnett and Hawk.

Kamp - 4.65 40, 4.09 shuttle
Barnett - 4.67 40, 4.08 shuttle
Hawk - 4.59 40, 3.96 shuttle
Chillar - 4.71 40, 4.09 shuttle
Poppinga - 4.59 40, 4.39 shuttle

Their change of direction ability (shuttle) has a lot to do with how well they can cover.

GB's LB's are exceptionally good at covering relative to other teams. They were also put in a scheme that required them to cover exceptionally well. Few teams in the NFL ask their SLB to cover man to man, for most teams it is the will and mike that have that job. For 3-4 teams that is the task of the jack and mike. Is Merriman a major weakness because he sucks at coverage (he does)?

GB's poor flat coverage had a lot to do with our man to man coverage, DB's weren't part of the solution because they had to stick to their guy like glue and look at him, not the play. Man to man teams will always be weak on the edges, what you gain in decreased completion %, you lose in ability to stop short passes from going for decent gains. Most teams stopped running mostly man coverage in part because the typical attack of the WCO philosophy chewed it up.

Capers has already said that were probably going to play a lot more zone on non-3rd and long.

There is a big philosophical difference, cover a RB in the flats in man, if he beats the coverage he'll get a good # of yards, but he won't catch it as often. Cover him in zone with a guy downfield, he's gonna catch a lot more passes, but chances are is the defender is in position it will only be for a couple yards at most. Does Kamp have problems with open field tackling? That will be his primary coverage responsibility, whack a guy as soon as the ball gets to him. Getting in there to play like Harris is not what they are going to be asked to do.

These stats are meaningless for making plays as a football player. Yes they possess athleticism to play the position but is not a direct correlation for making impact plays as a football player.

What are Bishop's measureables? How many impact plays did Bishop make vs, Hawk based on playing time?

Bottom line - Hawk and Poppinga are inconsistent in coverage. Hawk's measureables does not translate to impact plays on the FOOTBALL FIELD.

[Waldo]

Does Kamp suck on the football field? I think that his athleticism has translated quite well. It's amazing how in one season Hawk goes from being the statistically best coverage LB in the NFL (he was in '07) to an absolute scrub. Gotta love the short memory of fans.

[wist43]

He'll be a fish out of water... I've been a 3-4 cheerleader for years, but the way the Packers are going about it all but ensures they will be running a 4-3 much more often than a 3-4.

Since they're stating publicly that they intend to run a "hybrid", and to use whatever base defense works best for a given opponent/situation... it won't take long for them to figure out that Kampman can't play LB, and Harrell can't play DE, and that Barnett is even worse as a 3-4 LB, than he was as a 4-3 LB, etc...

Add that, the fact that TT is unlikely to make much of an effort to target 3-4 players in FA, and that he will always, and only, take his BPA in the draft... it is unlikely that there will be much help arriving in the off season to facilitate the changeover...

Ergo... 2, 3 games into the season... i expect that 3-4/hybrid will be looking like a very familiar 4-3.

[rbaloha1]

Does Kamp suck on the football field? I think that his athleticism has translated quite well. It's amazing how in one season Hawk goes from being the statistically best coverage LB in the NFL (he was in '07) to an absolute scrub. Gotta love the short memory of fans.

Again, Kampy is on of the best as a 4-3 end. However using stats to make the assertion that this translates to being an impact 3-4 olb is a huge stretch.

Please post Bishop's drill stats.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Kampman will do well as a 3-4 OLB. Others feel the same way. Wist, rbaloha, and others don't think he'll do well. We'll see when the season starts. Capers seems to think he'll do well. I trust him at this point. That's where we are at. Not sure we need a new thread about this every few days.

[Waldo]

Does Kamp suck on the football field? I think that his athleticism has translated quite well. It's amazing how in one season Hawk goes from being the statistically best coverage LB in the NFL (he was in '07) to an absolute scrub. Gotta love the short memory of fans.

Again, Kampy is on of the best as a 4-3 end. However using stats to make the assertion that this translates to being an impact 3-4 olb is a huge stretch.

Please post Bishop's drill stats.

Google isn't that hard to use.

Bishop ran a 4.81 40 and 4.65 shuttle. And can't cover to save his life, nor can he catch a RB trying to turn the corner, hence Hawk started all year at MLB after Barnett went down. Bishop is a 2 down LB, just like Hodge was.

How do you think "impact" OLB's are found? Certainly isn't on tape as ALL of them played DE in college. It is by how they perform at the combine, combined with their college ability to get to the QB off the edge.

As much as fans like to think "pick football players not combine stars", TT disagrees with you, he picks combine studs almost exclusively until the late rounds. The higher "good football players" that he has taken (Hodge, Brohm, Spitz) haven't exactly been his best picks. The one combine test TT pays moderate attention to is the 40, whereas he seems to put a lot of stock in the 10 yd split, the shuttle, and the players frame.

Jordy - Incredible top speed for a guy his size, good hands
Lee - Very good speed overall and great short area quickness, good size
Finley - Fastest TE in the draft
Thompson - Nearly identical measurables to Chris Long, very long arms
Sitton - Very good agility, strength, and size, prototypical G
Harrell - Extremely high power/speed/size ratio, much better than the rest of the DT's in the draft
Jackson - Fast 10 yd split, good 40, very high agility
Jones - Strongest WR in draft, good short area speed and change of direction ability, good hands
Rouse - Runs a legit low 4.4's, incredible for a guy his size
Barbre - fastest lineman in draft
Wynn - Fastest 10 yd split a 220 lb+ RB has ever recorded at the combine
Hawk - Fastest shuttle recorded at the combine, highest vert of the LB's
Colledge - Very good agility and quickness and prototypical LT frame
Jennings - Ran a 4.4 40, good hands
Hodge - Good football player, horrible combine
Spitz - Good football player, mediocre combine
Rodgers - Legit 4.4 WR, good returner (broke his good hands rule though)
Blackmon - Legit 4.4 DB, good size
Clowney - Little 4.35 burner, just as fast as Ginn
Rodgers - Good athlete for a QB, most accurate QB in draft
Collins - Sub 4.4 burner, fastest S in draft (only Huff was faster since)
Murphy - 4.4 burner, good hands
Poppinga - One of the fastest 40's a DE ran
Montgomery - Longest arms of any DE in the draft

[sharpe1027]

He'll be a fish out of water... I've been a 3-4 cheerleader for years, but the way the Packers are going about it all but ensures they will be running a 4-3 much more often than a 3-4.

Since they're stating publicly that they intend to run a "hybrid", and to use whatever base defense works best for a given opponent/situation... it won't take long for them to figure out that Kampman can't play LB, and Harrell can't play DE, and that Barnett is even worse as a 3-4 LB, than he was as a 4-3 LB, etc...

Add that, the fact that TT is unlikely to make much of an effort to target 3-4 players in FA, and that he will always, and only, take his BPA in the draft... it is unlikely that there will be much help arriving in the off season to facilitate the changeover...

Ergo... 2, 3 games into the season... i expect that 3-4/hybrid will be looking like a very familiar 4-3.

Sure, or he will do just fine. The difference between my position and yours is that I don't pretend to know the answer. What I *think* is that Kampman will be able make a lot of plays at OLB and will probably also make a lot of mistakes, especially early. Hopefully, the good plays outweigh the bad. Why do I think that? A good question. Thanks for asking.

1) Kampman has a distinct advantage of having already played LB for a good chunk of his life.
2) His measurable are solid.
3) He is a smart player.
4) He is a dedicated worker and good technician.
5) He has a proven coaching staff behind him.
6.) He put on weight for the DE position and is still not that huge, making me think he can play lighter if need be.
7) Other OLBers have made the transition from DE with less experience, if any, in coverage.
6) I prefer to be hopeful that the Packers can be good, rather than always assume they will fail.

Why do you *think* he will be a fish out of water? What facts and reasoned conclusions do you have?

[sharpe1027]

Does Kamp suck on the football field? I think that his athleticism has translated quite well. It's amazing how in one season Hawk goes from being the statistically best coverage LB in the NFL (he was in '07) to an absolute scrub. Gotta love the short memory of fans.

Again, Kampy is on of the best as a 4-3 end. However using stats to make the assertion that this translates to being an impact 3-4 olb is a huge stretch.

Please post Bishop's drill stats.

You can pick apart Waldo's position by discounting the facts and explanations, but can you provide any support for your own?