36 million in cap room

[red]

Bretsky, you'd be better suited to work for Daniel Snyder.

I'd prefer Jerry Jones cuz Bretsky wants the spotlight when his cream rises to the top

screw it, lets combine forces and go al davis style all day baby

[SnakeLH2006]

First off I love ya Waldo...your posts have kept this forum afloat for the past month or two, but Snake's sentiments reside with many about Colledge. I HD-DVR'd every game in 2008 to watch each play several times from many angles. Yes, Colledge improved and may be our best LT now as Cliffy was worse than many think last year. He's done. Is Colledge worth a 4-6 year deal...? Perhaps, but only at 4-4.5 million right now. Maybe TT does it, but I'd still upgrade to a true (being 320 lb. mauler) as this finesse OL shit will pass with the zone. I guess I'd do it money-wise, but damn if Colledge is underwhelming game after game.

[Fritz]

Fritz likes how Snake refers to himself in the third person.

It's working for the Snakester.

[Patler]

As far as trading for Peppers, aside from what Carolina would want, he's guaranteed the amount he was tendered for next season. Even if the team he goes to signs him to a long term deal, it has to include $16-$17 million (whatever the tender was) for this year.

I don't think we want to pay that for him, regardless.

That doesn't mean the cap hit has to be 16-17M, it means he physically had to be given that much money.

The minimum deal he can be signed to is a salary of 3.4M this year and a signing bonus of 13.6M, for a 2009 cap hit of 6.8M (about what Kampman makes). He's gonna get a lot more than that. But we have the cap space to frontload the snot out of it this year and next in salary and give him a smaller signing bonus, then come out of the uncapped year with a guy that costs little to the cap and is easy to cut if need be.

I'm not sure I agree, if I understand what is being suggested. So first I want to make sure I understand what you are suggesting.

How did you arrive at the numbers for the minimum deal he could be signed to, $3.4M '08 salary and $13.6M bonus, 4 years?

Are you aware of any legal "requirement" that he be given the tender offer amount in the first year of any longer term deal? I am aware of no legal requirement. I believe (but certainly could be wrong on this) that it is merely a practical consideration. Why would a player sign a long term deal for less $ in hand this year than he would get by accepting the tender offer for one year?

Nothing is yet guaranteed for any of the tagged players, other than Cassel. I believe Cassel is the only one who has accepted the tender. Until the tendered contract is accepted, the designation can be withdrawn. From a practical point of view it is a virtual guarantee, because if withdrawn the player becomes a free agent; however, I believe it has happened once or twice.

[Waldo]

To be traded he has to sign the tender, then sign a new contract (extension). The tender is a contract, a team can't trade a player technically not under contract. Once the tender is signed, the amount is fully guaranteed, so the team that signs them to the new contract must at least guarantee the amount of the tender, since it is an extension to the franchise tag contract, not a new contract. You can't give a player a 2nd contract that is already under contract, by signing the tag to be traded, they are locked in to a contract for that year.

I believe the maximum length a signing bonus can be spread is 4 years this year. I read a rule that only 3 years of it can be charged to uncapped years. Since next year in uncapped and there is no CBA in place afterwards, the maximum amortization is 4 years this league year.

[imscott72]

Fritz likes how Snake refers to himself in the third person.

It's working for the Snakester.

i was going to ask the same thing. What's up with that?

[Patler]

To be traded he has to sign the tender, then sign a new contract (extension). The tender is a contract, a team can't trade a player technically not under contract. Once the tender is signed, the amount is fully guaranteed, so the team that signs them to the new contract must at least guarantee the amount of the tender, since it is an extension to the franchise tag contract, not a new contract. You can't give a player a 2nd contract that is already under contract, by signing the tag to be traded, they are locked in to a contract for that year.

I believe the maximum length a signing bonus can be spread is 4 years this year. I read a rule that only 3 years of it can be charged to uncapped years. Since next year in uncapped and there is no CBA in place afterwards, the maximum amortization is 4 years this league year.

A free agent player has to sign a contract to be traded, that is true; but it doesn't have to be the tendered contract, just a contract. What often happens is that the terms of the trade are agreed on between the teams. The acquiring team then negotiates a contract with the player, and the player signs a contract with his former team that has tradeable terms consistent with the terms he has negotiated with the new team. This is often just a formality, but it is that contract that is traded to the new team. The player then often signs a more detailed contact with the new team thereafter.

If the player actually signs the tendered contract, and the new contract is an extension to the terms of the tendered contract, you can not convert guaranteed contractual salary into bonus to defer the cap effect. Once the tender is signed, and the salary guaranteed, it remains salary. You can do things to various bonuses to convert them into signing bonuses by guaranteeing the bonus before it is due. I know no way of converting salary into bonus after the player is guaranteed the salary. In the off season, when salaries are not yet guaranteed for "regular" players, you can do things, but for veterans who make the opening roster and have guaranteed salaries, any negotiation extending the contract does not alter the salary component. For tagged players the salary is guaranteed from the time they sign the tender, and thus can not be changed to bonus, as I understand it.

[Fritz]

also, by my wedding I mean my new packers forum, and by best man i mean moderator, but you get the point... you are my favorite poster.

although waldo has the best combination of avatar and football knowledge

Does your new forum have a hot sister?

That definition of "hot"would be more consistent with traditional notions of hot...y'now, MILFs and younger hotties - our EC Ladies...nice build, smart, pretty face....

so does your new Packer forum have a sister like that?

[KYPack]

Man,
When Waldo and Patler get in an argument, I feel like the dumb kid on College Jeopardy.

I know some of that stuff, but I feel like if I knew all of it, I'd know too much!

[Guiness]

To be traded he has to sign the tender, then sign a new contract (extension). The tender is a contract, a team can't trade a player technically not under contract. Once the tender is signed, the amount is fully guaranteed, so the team that signs them to the new contract must at least guarantee the amount of the tender, since it is an extension to the franchise tag contract, not a new contract. You can't give a player a 2nd contract that is already under contract, by signing the tag to be traded, they are locked in to a contract for that year.

That's almost exactly my understanding, with the exception that I didn't think part of the tendered contract could be spread out over time by converting it to a signing bonus.

As Waldo said, the player is signing an extension. I seem to remember some rule the PA or the league has that says a player can only sign an extension is more money is added on, i.e. they can't 'give up' money when signing one. That would be re-negotiating, which they view under some other light.

I believe the maximum length a signing bonus can be spread is 4 years this year. I read a rule that only 3 years of it can be charged to uncapped years. Since next year in uncapped and there is no CBA in place afterwards, the maximum amortization is 4 years this league year.

See, this is where I don't get the shit about the lack of a cap. Only three years can be charged to uncapped years? What the hell do you care if there's no cap????

Oh. Wait a minute, I think I see...part of the signing bonus is amortized to '09, which is capped. The league is preventing teams signing longer contracts so only 1/7th or 1/6th of the bonus is in the capped year, forcing them to make it 1/4. That right?

Damn. I feel stupider after talking about this. I'm going to see if Red and Tarlam are around and want to start drinking

[Fritz]

Man,
When Waldo and Patler get in an argument, I feel like the dumb kid on College Jeopardy.

I know some of that stuff, but I feel like if I knew all of it, I'd know too much!

I know what ya mean...it's kinda like watching King Kong Vs. Godzilla, except Waldo and Patler are civilized.

Maybe it's more like watching Charlie Chan vs. Dr. Who.

[Guiness]

Ok, you were typing this response while I was mine...

To be traded he has to sign the tender, then sign a new contract (extension). The tender is a contract, a team can't trade a player technically not under contract. Once the tender is signed, the amount is fully guaranteed, so the team that signs them to the new contract must at least guarantee the amount of the tender, since it is an extension to the franchise tag contract, not a new contract. You can't give a player a 2nd contract that is already under contract, by signing the tag to be traded, they are locked in to a contract for that year.

I believe the maximum length a signing bonus can be spread is 4 years this year. I read a rule that only 3 years of it can be charged to uncapped years. Since next year in uncapped and there is no CBA in place afterwards, the maximum amortization is 4 years this league year.

A free agent player has to sign a contract to be traded, that is true; but it doesn't have to be the tendered contract, just a contract.

Are you sure of this? Once a tender has been offered, is the team still allowed to negotiate with the player before he signs that tender?

There are some rules about the tag, and I remember teams getting in trouble for bending them in the past. IIRC once you sign a tagged player, you are then free to negotiate a longer term contract. If you do, the player is no longer under the tag, and you can use it again. Some team got in trouble because the league decided they'd negotiated a long term deal with a player during some time period they weren't allowed to.

What often happens is that the terms of the trade are agreed on between the teams. The acquiring team then negotiates a contract with the player, and the player signs a contract with his former team that has tradeable terms consistent with the terms he has negotiated with the new team. This is often just a formality, but it is that contract that is traded to the new team.

See, I'm not so sure about this either, if I understand you correctly. Are you saying the player signs a contract (other than the tender) with the trading team? I can't see how this works, because that contract would have a signing bonus...which would be accelerated into the trading team's cap as soon as the trade went through.

The player then often signs a more detailed contact with the new team thereafter. If the player actually signs the tendered contract, and the new contract is an extension to the terms of the tendered contract, you can not convert guaranteed contractual salary into bonus to defer the cap effect.

Ok, this part is what I initially thought, i.e. guaranteed salary has to remain guaranteed salary.

[Guiness]

Man,
When Waldo and Patler get in an argument, I feel like the dumb kid on College Jeopardy.

I know some of that stuff, but I feel like if I knew all of it, I'd know too much!

I know what ya mean...it's kinda like watching King Kong Vs. Godzilla, except Waldo and Patler are civilized.

Maybe it's more like watching Charlie Chan vs. Dr. Who.

Geez, I guess I'm chopped liver in this discussion. Can I at least be Mothra? Or Sancho Panza?

[KYPack]

Geez, I guess I'm chopped liver in this discussion. Can I at least be Mothra? Or Sancho Panza?

OK.

We don't WTF you're talking about, either!




(Be Mothra. The World's most underrated monster)

[Zool]

I suck at salaries, but can I be Rodan?