For TT Lovers...

[Waldo]

It's simply a matter of $$. They already were right up against the cap (too little room for the rookie class), and cleared the space by trading Vrabel and Cassell. They signed a few FA's, but are sitting at about 15M in cap space right now.

Julius will take 10-12M/yr in cap space if they trade for him.

If they do, they have made their bed, one of Wilfork or Seymore cannot be resigned, there isn't cap space to do so. With Canty getting 7M/yr in FA, Seymore would expect an even larger contract, Vince is probably looking at 6.5-7.5M/yr.

So they trade for Peppers, they are going to lose either Vince or Seymore, most likely Seymore, and are going to have to clear about 5M off the cap to keep the one they choose (if they do the contract this year)

They can't get the $$ this year from Adalius, he costs 6.4M to the cap this year, they would get back 1.9M but would cost 12.6M in accelerated cap. They have to cut him next year though if there is no cap, as he's due a cap charge of 10.4M in 2011, and will be 34 years old. He has a big backloaded deal.

Is Adalius really worth top 10 pass rusher money? That's what he got in his contract.

5 sacks in 9 games pace = 9 sacks in 16 games

With Adalius and Moss, NE has gotten into the business of paying for the current team with the cap in the future. They are another team like the Colts, Cowboys, Skins, and Vikings that are not going to be in good shape at all if there is a cap in 2010, as all of those teams would be well over the cap if there is a cap next year.

[retailguy]

Waldo,

None of that makes the guy a bust. That's what I'm arguing. You assert 9 sacks, I say 10. You ignore that he went down in the 2nd quarter of game 9, and if you want to do the math, you MUST include those minutes too. I don't think that you're arguing that 9 sacks makes him a bust, but at 10, he's ok. Additionally, you neglect to mention that he garnered 6 of his 6.5 sacks in 2007 in the final 6 games.

During the beginning of the 2007 season, he was; A. - With a new team, B. - acclimating to a new system, scheme, & personnel, C. - Being used in both a 3/4 and 4/3 defense, D. - being used at both inside and outside linebacker. It is reasonable to conclude that it took some time for him to acclimate and get up to speed. His performance in 2008, before his injury suggests that he was returning to his Baltimore days in terms of being a force on the defense.

In any event, Thomas had 11 sacks, ONE year, other years he was in high single digits, so he was returning to his pre NE performance prior to the injury. Next, you neglect to mention that he led the team in sacks prior to his injury in 2008, despite playing some inside linebacker too.

Now, looking at Wilfork and Seymour - creative things can be done to keep the team intact. Will it mortgage future years? Sure. But, Brady is 32, Moss is in his 30's, Seymor is 30, Thomas is 32. Point is, that the core of the team is now old. They've got a 3 or 4 year window, and then they need to start over. They can mortgage the cap for a couple of seasons, and that'll work with some young rookie talent.

Will they do that? Who knows. But NONE of that labels Thomas a bust. The real decision, using your POV which I don't necessarily agree with but nonetheless, is, will the additional money and picks that Peppers costs, be money better spent than sticking with Thomas? I don't see it, and that's why I don't think this trade happens.

The dropoff from Peppers to Thomas is not that big to justify the cost, unless Carolina really values a 2nd round pick. I doubt that NE gives up more than that for the reasons I stated.

Personally, I think Peppers plays this season on the Franchise tag. We'll see.

[Waldo]

The fact of the matter remains, they paid Thomas more than 7M/yr. For a pass rusher/OLB, that is 10 sk/yr money. The Phins paid a 1 year older Joey Porter less money than the Pats paid Thomas, and got more in 1 year than the Pats have gotten in 2. Is he really the 3rd best guy on the team, and their best defender? His paycheck says that he is.

He may not be an outright bust, but he sure isn't keeping his end of the 7M/yr bargain up.

They will paid him 24M for for the first 3 years for the deal, really as a pass rusher decline starts at 30, 7+ sack seasons are a rarity for a 32 year old guy or older (2 guys in the top 28 sackers last year were 32 or older at the end of the season), and Adalius will be 32 years old this year. They paid for the few remaining years of the prime window for a sack artist and bloated contract in his declining years, he's now outside of the prime window and into the declining years, having not given them any peak production years when in his prime.

[hoosier]

Waldo,

None of that makes the guy a bust. That's what I'm arguing. You assert 9 sacks, I say 10. You ignore that he went down in the 2nd quarter of game 9, and if you want to do the math, you MUST include those minutes too. I don't think that you're arguing that 9 sacks makes him a bust, but at 10, he's ok. Additionally, you neglect to mention that he garnered 6 of his 6.5 sacks in 2007 in the final 6 games.

During the beginning of the 2007 season, he was; A. - With a new team, B. - acclimating to a new system, scheme, & personnel, C. - Being used in both a 3/4 and 4/3 defense, D. - being used at both inside and outside linebacker. It is reasonable to conclude that it took some time for him to acclimate and get up to speed. His performance in 2008, before his injury suggests that he was returning to his Baltimore days in terms of being a force on the defense.

In any event, Thomas had 11 sacks, ONE year, other years he was in high single digits, so he was returning to his pre NE performance prior to the injury. Next, you neglect to mention that he led the team in sacks prior to his injury in 2008, despite playing some inside linebacker too.

Now, looking at Wilfork and Seymour - creative things can be done to keep the team intact. Will it mortgage future years? Sure. But, Brady is 32, Moss is in his 30's, Seymor is 30, Thomas is 32. Point is, that the core of the team is now old. They've got a 3 or 4 year window, and then they need to start over. They can mortgage the cap for a couple of seasons, and that'll work with some young rookie talent.

Will they do that? Who knows. But NONE of that labels Thomas a bust. The real decision, using your POV which I don't necessarily agree with but nonetheless, is, will the additional money and picks that Peppers costs, be money better spent than sticking with Thomas? I don't see it, and that's why I don't think this trade happens.

The dropoff from Peppers to Thomas is not that big to justify the cost, unless Carolina really values a 2nd round pick. I doubt that NE gives up more than that for the reasons I stated.

Personally, I think Peppers plays this season on the Franchise tag. We'll see.

The Patriots don't use a 4-3. You must mean 2006 in Baltimore.

[KYPack]

You're just trying to bring some penis pictures into this thread KY. What a guy you are!

No, that's Skin's gig.

About 10 years ago I spoke to a recently retired NFL assistant coach whom I had once worked with.

The subject got around to Haley. He asked me if I had heard the stories about Charles. Back then I had heard the attacks on Young and Seifert stories. This guy said those tales were true but that "Haley is one of the few guys that the rumors are nowhere as bad as the truth about him".

Even with that, I still don't believe the "meeting room" tale.

[retailguy]

The Patriots don't use a 4-3. You must mean 2006 in Baltimore.

Umm. No. The Patriots base defense is a 3-4. They spend a lot of time in a 4-3 look, and Thomas is on the field as a Linebacker in both formations. He played almost every defensive snap in 2008 before he broke his forearm.

[Bretsky]

Hopefully I didn't miss too much good stuff; I read the title and know when I'm not welcome

[Rastak]

I love this cliche. Lots of Packer fans like to cite it as gospel.

When/who was the last "over the top" FA that worked? Sounds good in practice, but I am at a loss to come up with a successful example. At least since the 90's (Marshal Faulk).

Jared Allen! Nope, missed the playoffs. Haynesworth! Mmm, jury's still out, but I think I know the answer. Edgerrin James? The Cards eventually put it together, but he wasn't the reason. I've got it: Brett Favre!!! Nope, didn't quite get the result the Jets were hoping for there either.

Seriously, Faulk is a good example. Reggie, of course. You have to acknowlege Moss's role in the Pats '07 season - while you could argue is didn't put them 'over the top' because they didn't win the SB, you can't take away from that season. Deon was pretty instrumental in SF's run that year.

But there sure aren't many. Many more examples of huge dollars spent on FA's who may have played well, but it wasn't enough.

He definitely started in their playoff game.

[SnakeLH2006]

TT has been OK at best so far. I know some people don't like to look at cold hard facts, but the only thing that matters is one playoff appearance in 4 seasons.

That is completely unacceptable in GB. If the trend doesn't reverse this year, he'll be canned without a doubt imo.

Snake's going out on a limb....yet I agree Partial.