What Caused the Demise of the 60's Packers?

[Fritz]

Okay, I'm soaked in Brett Favre drama and I can't debate any more whether Brady Poppinga will be a starter this year. So . . .

I've been wondering about this. My first memories of specific Packers were the players who were supposed to take over for the Hornungs and McGees and so on. Starr was in his last couple of years, and the Pack had drafted the "Gold Dust Twins," Anderson and, I think, Grabowski.

But that next generation of Packers didn't work out. They had that one 10-4 year, but that was it.

I'm curious about who was the GM in charge of drafts - did that change toward the end of the glory years and is that why the team went south? Was Lombardi also the GM the last few years? Did Lombardi - if he was in charge - start having crappy drafts? Did the team hang on to guys too long?

I'm curious what people out there think happened.

[sheepshead]

Phil Bengsten happened. Good x's and o's guy. Not a great judge of personnel or motivator. Then it took years to cut the "Lombardi Cord". Wasnt until Lindy Infante was that accomplished.

[hoosier]

Loss of Lombardi + aging players that didn't get replaced. The 1967 Pack, the team that beat Dallas in the Ice Bowl and then went on to win SBII, was already a team in decline. They had lost Hornung and Taylor by then, and the guy drafted to replace them, Jim Grabowski (1st round, 1966), never developed into more than a role player. Lombardi's later drafts, dating even back to 1964, really didn't reproduce the great success the team had in the late 50s and early 60s.

[AtlPackFan]

Loss of Lombardi + aging players that didn't get replaced. The 1967 Pack, the team that beat Dallas in the Ice Bowl and then went on to win SBII, was already a team in decline. They had lost Hornung and Taylor by then, and the guy drafted to replace them, Jim Grabowski (1st round, 1966), never developed into more than a role player. Lombardi's later drafts, dating even back to 1964, really didn't reproduce the great success the team had in the late 50s and early 60s.

I read a book awhile back that stated that a lot of the players from those 60s teams were already in place when Lombardi took over. It took his coaching and motivational skills to make them a winner.

[oregonpackfan]

I think Hoosier and AtlPack make strong points that the Packers had a basic core of strong players who just could not get replaced through the draft and trades.

Lombardi had an incredible ability to get the most out of his players through motivation. He was tireless both as a coach and GM.

Toward the end of his regime, I think Lombardi was becoming physically and emotionally drained. His whole life was focused around the Packers. A longtime chain smoker, I suspect the beginning stages of cancer, which was to take his life, began to set in.

Someone also made the good point that the Packers did not seem able to draft the talented players to take the place of aging veterans. They did draft well for a few young players like offensive tackle Gale Gillingham and halfback Donny Anderson, but many of their top draft picks simply did not pan out.

Another reason may be the difficulty is continually being at top form for regular games. After the Packers established themselves at the top team in the NFL, it seemed that every team billed the regular season game against the Packers as their most important game of the season. Even poor teams played their best against the Packers. They played hard and well into the 4th quarter, often to lose in the last 5-10 minutes of the game. I think in the long term, that continual weekly challenge was also draining on the Packers.

In any event, it was a remarkable and glorious stretch, perhaps one of the best ever seen in the history of the NFL.

[Pack-man]

I would say that aging players really caused the demise. Lombardi left IMO because he saw the writing on the wall. This team was getting old and winning was going to be difficult. He left Bengston in a extremely difficult situation. Not only did he have to replace a living legend, but he inherited an old team.

[hoosier]

Loss of Lombardi + aging players that didn't get replaced. The 1967 Pack, the team that beat Dallas in the Ice Bowl and then went on to win SBII, was already a team in decline. They had lost Hornung and Taylor by then, and the guy drafted to replace them, Jim Grabowski (1st round, 1966), never developed into more than a role player. Lombardi's later drafts, dating even back to 1964, really didn't reproduce the great success the team had in the late 50s and early 60s.

I read a book awhile back that stated that a lot of the players from those 60s teams were already in place when Lombardi took over. It took his coaching and motivational skills to make them a winner.

Here is a link to a site that lists every Packer draft; before the 1960s the lists seem to be incomplete. It's quite remarkable how three years in particular--1956, 57 and 58--really provided the core of what would become the great Packer teams of the 1960s. Verne Lewellen was the Packer GM at the time, and presumably played the biggest role in those drafts. Meanwhile, the 1956-58 Packer teams (pre-Lombardi) were truly horrible, and it wasn't until 1959 that those draft picks began to blossom. It does raise the question of how much of that team's success was talent and how much good coaching, motivation (and fear).

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1800&type=team

[Packnut]

60's

I don't think it was any one particular reason that caused the down-fall but rather a combination of circumstances. Core players getting older played a part in it. If your looking for one specific reason, an arguement could be made it was Lombardi. The man had a special talent using fear, love, respect and installing an insaitable appetite to win.

The Lombardi era will never again be duplicated in any sport. In the age of parity, no team will ever dominate a decade like the 60's Packers. Not just the winning, but the "mystique" of it all. The combination of opposite spectrum personalities was unique to say the least. The soldier type mentality of a Nitschke. The methodical mentality of a Starr. The fun loving gambling womanizing ways of Hornung and Max. I mean really, has there ever been a more lovable group of players on one team in any sport at any time?

[MadScientist]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/packers/448144

[hoosier]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/packers/448144

Thank you. I knew I was leaving someone out when giving credit to Lewellen, but I couldn't remember who. Vainisi had the eye for talent, and Lombardi knew what to do with it.

[Waldo]

.....and then Devine was hired as GM, and made the 2nd worst trade in NFL history, setting the franchise in a hole for at least half a decade in the pre FA era.

[Fritz]

Second worst trade? Is the Herschel Walker trade the worst, or the Ricky Williams?

Didn't the Pack give up two first rounders - and more - for Hadl? In my book, that about tops the list. Hadl was 36 years old at the time of the trade. WTF???

Thanks for the info on Vainisi. I've never heard of him before, and it would seem he really was the guy who made the picks. Thus, when Lombardi was doing it on his own, it seems clear he didn't have the drafting skills that Vainisi did.

So Lombardi was dual coach/GM. Did Bengston get this same dual title?

[Waldo]

Second worst trade? Is the Herschel Walker trade the worst, or the Ricky Williams?

Hershel is the worst. That compensation is just ludicrous for a RB. 3 firsts, 3 seconds, a third and a sixth. Loco. Though Hershel was OK for the Vikes.

Hadl was almost just as bad though, 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and a third. But unlike Walker, he was basically a complete bust with the Packers and totally unproductive.

Bad part about it, Devine got extremely close to trading for Archie Manning before he established himself in NO, before an injury shut that down and he had to resort to Hadl.

Ricky cost a whole draft plus a first and third. But Ricky was a pretty good back for the Saints in his time there.

[Packgator]

Vince and age. How do you replace 9 Hall of Famers.....Starr, Horning, Taylor, Adderley, Wood, Nitschke, Davis, Gregg, and Jordan. (Ringo also in the hall.....but he was replaced well enough to win 3 championships without him).

Throw in Dowler, Dale, Kramer, Thurston, Jeter, Robinson, Caffey, and any others I've missed. That's almost every starter.

What a team!

[Fritz]

That's my thinking - that Walker, though clearly past his prime, wasn't as far past his prime as Hadl was. He was done like a piece of toast. I can't fathom how Devine coulda even considered such a ridiculous trade.

I did not know he was thinking about getting Manning. What was he prepared to offer? Any details on that story, Waldo?

Oh, man, that would've been great. A whole different Packer history for the 70's and early 80's, perhaps. And maybe better fortunes for Archie, too. Maybe.