Those Crafty Williams Boys...

[ThunderDan]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

I think the issue is more about the NFL's responsibility to the players. They knew about the substance in the starcaps and said nothing to the players, except don't endorse it.

No Smack, the issue is the supplement they used was not on the officially approved list of supplements they could take. Instead of trying to skirt around that list by trying to gain approval for a supplement that was not on the list, they could have just taken something else that was in fact listed as an approved supplement. Make this very, very simple. Was Starcaps on the list of approved supplements? No? Then the Williamses fucked up by taking it. No more discussion is required. Goodell gives a list of things you CAN take, not a list of things you CAN'T take. So just assume that if it isn't listed as okay, that means it's not okay. Everything is so much simpler that way, and you don't risk getting caught in violation of league rules. The Williamses took a chance and lost. Now here come the local courts to save the day for the local team. Embarrassing.

I know you want this to be "very, very simple," but your problem is that this issue is anything but.

Otherwise it would not be in court.

It is not cut and dried, it is not simple, it is not fair...... it is in the court system because of these factors.

There is a banned substance list. Starcaps was not on it.

Here is the NFL rule agree to by the league and union:
Strict liability drug policy, which renders players responsible for what they put in their bodies.

This says any substance is the players responsibilty and the union agreed. Now the Williams test positive for the substance and don't think they should be held responsible.

[SMACKTALKIE]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

I think the issue is more about the NFL's responsibility to the players. They knew about the substance in the starcaps and said nothing to the players, except don't endorse it.

No Smack, the issue is the supplement they used was not on the officially approved list of supplements they could take. Instead of trying to skirt around that list by trying to gain approval for a supplement that was not on the list, they could have just taken something else that was in fact listed as an approved supplement. Make this very, very simple. Was Starcaps on the list of approved supplements? No? Then the Williamses fucked up by taking it. No more discussion is required. Goodell gives a list of things you CAN take, not a list of things you CAN'T take. So just assume that if it isn't listed as okay, that means it's not okay. Everything is so much simpler that way, and you don't risk getting caught in violation of league rules. The Williamses took a chance and lost. Now here come the local courts to save the day for the local team. Embarrassing.

http://www.prostaronline.com/bannedsubstances.html

[Gunakor]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

I think the issue is more about the NFL's responsibility to the players. They knew about the substance in the starcaps and said nothing to the players, except don't endorse it.

No Smack, the issue is the supplement they used was not on the officially approved list of supplements they could take. Instead of trying to skirt around that list by trying to gain approval for a supplement that was not on the list, they could have just taken something else that was in fact listed as an approved supplement. Make this very, very simple. Was Starcaps on the list of approved supplements? No? Then the Williamses fucked up by taking it. No more discussion is required. Goodell gives a list of things you CAN take, not a list of things you CAN'T take. So just assume that if it isn't listed as okay, that means it's not okay. Everything is so much simpler that way, and you don't risk getting caught in violation of league rules. The Williamses took a chance and lost. Now here come the local courts to save the day for the local team. Embarrassing.

I know you want this to be "very, very simple," but your problem is that this issue is anything but.

Otherwise it would not be in court.

It is not cut and dried, it is not simple, it is not fair...... it is in the court system because of these factors.

There is a banned substance list. Starcaps was not on it.

Hmm. I was under the impression that there was also an approved supplements list. If I understand that incorrectly, that changes things a great deal. Everything I've read suggest that an approved list does in fact exist and is issued prior to every NFL season to it's teams.

Here's how you simplify this. Don't read the banned list. Read the approved list. If it's only 10 supplements long, those are the 10 supplements you are allowed to take. Any supplement that is not included in that list should be considered banned, even if there's a chance that no banned substances are contained in that supplement. If it's approved, you're good. So Starcaps weren't on the banned list. Were they on the approved list? If not, then Starcaps should have been considered banned, whether they were on the banned list or not. That's pretty simple, and very logical. Why is it so hard for the Williamses to grasp such a simple concept?

[ThunderDan]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

I think the issue is more about the NFL's responsibility to the players. They knew about the substance in the starcaps and said nothing to the players, except don't endorse it.

No Smack, the issue is the supplement they used was not on the officially approved list of supplements they could take. Instead of trying to skirt around that list by trying to gain approval for a supplement that was not on the list, they could have just taken something else that was in fact listed as an approved supplement. Make this very, very simple. Was Starcaps on the list of approved supplements? No? Then the Williamses fucked up by taking it. No more discussion is required. Goodell gives a list of things you CAN take, not a list of things you CAN'T take. So just assume that if it isn't listed as okay, that means it's not okay. Everything is so much simpler that way, and you don't risk getting caught in violation of league rules. The Williamses took a chance and lost. Now here come the local courts to save the day for the local team. Embarrassing.

http://www.prostaronline.com/bannedsubstances.html

Sure looks like Bumetanide is under the banned diuretics list. That's what they tested positive for.

[SMACKTALKIE]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

I think the issue is more about the NFL's responsibility to the players. They knew about the substance in the starcaps and said nothing to the players, except don't endorse it.

No Smack, the issue is the supplement they used was not on the officially approved list of supplements they could take. Instead of trying to skirt around that list by trying to gain approval for a supplement that was not on the list, they could have just taken something else that was in fact listed as an approved supplement. Make this very, very simple. Was Starcaps on the list of approved supplements? No? Then the Williamses fucked up by taking it. No more discussion is required. Goodell gives a list of things you CAN take, not a list of things you CAN'T take. So just assume that if it isn't listed as okay, that means it's not okay. Everything is so much simpler that way, and you don't risk getting caught in violation of league rules. The Williamses took a chance and lost. Now here come the local courts to save the day for the local team. Embarrassing.

I know you want this to be "very, very simple," but your problem is that this issue is anything but.

Otherwise it would not be in court.

It is not cut and dried, it is not simple, it is not fair...... it is in the court system because of these factors.

There is a banned substance list. Starcaps was not on it.

Hmm. I was under the impression that there was also an approved supplements list. If I understand that incorrectly, that changes things a great deal. Everything I've read suggest that an approved list does in fact exist and is issued prior to every NFL season to it's teams.

Here's how you simplify this. Don't read the banned list. Read the approved list. If it's only 10 supplements long, those are the 10 supplements you are allowed to take. Any supplement that is not included in that list should be considered banned, even if there's a chance that no banned substances are contained in that supplement. If it's approved, you're good. So Starcaps weren't on the banned list. Were they on the approved list? If not, then Starcaps should have been considered banned, whether they were on the banned list or not. That's pretty simple, and very logical. Why is it so hard for the Williamses to grasp such a simple concept?

Is Tylenol on the approved list? If not can they still take it for headaches?

[Gunakor]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

Hmm. I was under the impression that there was also an approved supplements list. If I understand that incorrectly, that changes things a great deal. Everything I've read suggest that an approved list does in fact exist and is issued prior to every NFL season to it's teams.

Here's how you simplify this. Don't read the banned list. Read the approved list. If it's only 10 supplements long, those are the 10 supplements you are allowed to take. Any supplement that is not included in that list should be considered banned, even if there's a chance that no banned substances are contained in that supplement. If it's approved, you're good. So Starcaps weren't on the banned list. Were they on the approved list? If not, then Starcaps should have been considered banned, whether they were on the banned list or not. That's pretty simple, and very logical. Why is it so hard for the Williamses to grasp such a simple concept?

Is Tylenol on the approved list? If not can they still take it for headaches?

Tylenol is a medication, not a nutritional supplement. What would Tylenol be doing on a list of approved supplements?

[SMACKTALKIE]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

Hmm. I was under the impression that there was also an approved supplements list. If I understand that incorrectly, that changes things a great deal. Everything I've read suggest that an approved list does in fact exist and is issued prior to every NFL season to it's teams.

Here's how you simplify this. Don't read the banned list. Read the approved list. If it's only 10 supplements long, those are the 10 supplements you are allowed to take. Any supplement that is not included in that list should be considered banned, even if there's a chance that no banned substances are contained in that supplement. If it's approved, you're good. So Starcaps weren't on the banned list. Were they on the approved list? If not, then Starcaps should have been considered banned, whether they were on the banned list or not. That's pretty simple, and very logical. Why is it so hard for the Williamses to grasp such a simple concept?

Is Tylenol on the approved list? If not can they still take it for headaches?

Tylenol is a medication, not a nutritional supplement. What would Tylenol be doing on a list of approved supplements?

My point is that there are supplements that are not on the approved list that are still safe to take. That was the understanding in the Williams case, Starcaps was wrongly labled as all natural. The NFL knew it was not and failed to tell the players.

The NFL is lucky nobody died because of their lack of response in this matter. Korey Stringer died in part because of diuretics. Imagime the outrage if someone had died as a result of the NFL not telling the NFLPA about this finding. Instead they were too concerned about covering their asses.

That did'nt happen but it does not make the NFL's actions (or inactions) acceptable.

[ThunderDan]

Sure looks like Bumetanide is under the banned diuretics list. That's what they tested positive for.

So the NFL is now responsible for testing every supplement for content and labeling errors?

[ThunderDan]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

The NFL is lucky nobody died because of their lack of response in this matter. Korey Stringer died in part because of diuretics. Imagime the outrage if someone had died as a result of the NFL not telling the NFLPA about this finding. Instead they were too concerned about covering their asses.

That did'nt happen but it does not make the NFL's actions (or inactions) acceptable.

Don't blow this out of proportion.

The copmany that produces StarCaps is lucky no one died from using their incorrectly labeled supplement.

[Rastak]

Sure looks like Bumetanide is under the banned diuretics list. That's what they tested positive for.

So the NFL is now responsible for testing every supplement for content and labeling errors?

Thunder:

No but when they do find something they should inform the players, and they probably should explain why the first players that tested positive were not suspended and why they even bothered testing starcaps themselves to find out it was in there if there was a strict liability policy. Their own actions create a sense of uneven enforcement which is hardly a good faith action in a collectively bargined contract.


Kypack,

The really did screw the pooch on this one. They held kind of a sham appeal which is going to look bad in court and my understanding of federal labor law (which is limited to what I read) indicates state court DOES trump a CBA unless there is verbiage in there to specifically address this, which there isn't from what I understand. They have to fix that in the next CBA.


That is what I read at least.

[Scott Campbell]

Man, the Vikings are really good at cheating.

[ThunderDan]

Re: Those Crafty Williams Boys...

The NFL is lucky nobody died because of their lack of response in this matter. Korey Stringer died in part because of diuretics. Imagime the outrage if someone had died as a result of the NFL not telling the NFLPA about this finding. Instead they were too concerned about covering their asses.

That did'nt happen but it does not make the NFL's actions (or inactions) acceptable.

Don't blow this out of proportion.

The copmany that produces StarCaps is lucky no one died from using their incorrectly labeled supplement.

Also, diuretics are in almost every weightloss medication or supplement. So the majority of approved weightloss medications would have had a diuretic in it. It just that Bumetanide, the diuretic in Starcaps, is also a masking agent for other illegal drugs.

[SMACKTALKIE]

Sure looks like Bumetanide is under the banned diuretics list. That's what they tested positive for.

So the NFL is now responsible for testing every supplement for content and labeling errors?

No. But if they find untrue labeling, do they have the responsibility to report that information to the players? And if not, why?

Did they put players at risk by not reporting this information?

Is it fair to suspend players based on information the NFL was unwilling to share with the NFLPA?

Put Woodson and Harris in this position (I say this because they are some of your best players on D) and see how you feel. It's a complicated question of fairness.

I'm not saying they should not be suspended, the CBA is what it is. I'm simply saying there is more to this situation than meets the eye. It affects all players.

[ThunderDan]

Sure looks like Bumetanide is under the banned diuretics list. That's what they tested positive for.

So the NFL is now responsible for testing every supplement for content and labeling errors?

Thunder:

No but when they do find something they should inform the players, and they probably should explain why the first players that tested positive were not suspended and why they even bothered testing starcaps themselves to find out it was in there if there was a strict liability policy. Their own actions create a sense of uneven enforcement which is hardly a good faith action in a collectively bargined contract.

Yes they should have told the players but that doesn't make it legal by not telling them. If I am a multimillion dollar athlete there is no way I don't take any supplement that I know is safe before taking it. It's not like Starcaps is the only weightloss supplement out there.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Gotta love home town judicial cooking. Haven't seen as good of one as this since Chewy.