Aaron Rodgers - Best 4th Quarter QB In GB In Last Decade ?

[Waldo]

I think McCarthy's offense looked quite different between the two years. How much of the passing game change was QB versus coach, is hard to fathom. Rodgers seemed to prefer different routes than Favre had, and for 1/3 the season I thought we would have to hope he grew out of being a checkdown artist. His yards per attempt and a lot of nice deep throws convinced me otherwise.

The thing I was most concerned about on AR was his ability to drive the ball down the field.

With Aaron I don't think the issue is that he prefers different routes. He doesn't need to be hidden.

Contrary to popular belief, Brett cannot "make all the throws" and hasn't been able to for quite some time. Sorry Mn fans, but Bevell has no idea of how to call plays for Brett. Took MM a year to really figure it out. Brett has an accurate triangle that starts at the sidelines at the LOS and extends to the GL. As you go further down the field, his accuracy outside gets worse and worse. Brett cannot throw an intermediate-deep out, he's one of the NFL's worst at the sideline go, and play callers haven't called post-corner routes for him for years.

Brett's inability creates a conundrum and limited passing playbook on offense. MM kept switching up formations, but by and large running the same few routes with Brett. The ones he could throw, he was darn good at.

At first MM was calling exactly the opposite with Aaron. Doing what Brett couldn't do. I think then they just stuck to what was working and didn't try all sorts of new stuff. I also think that it was a point of emphasis to drive the ball down the field, hence Aaron ignoring his checkdown a bit too much.

I think this year the passing additions are going to be more screens, checkdowns, and slants, things we didn't do much of last year.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I have two complaints with McCarthy so far. Frost and Grant.

1) Derrick Frost should have been cut two months before (McCarthy should have pressured Thompson or found BJ Sander to add a second punter to the roster ; D

2) I don't care if you've overspent on a player. If that player is not getting the job done, try someone else. The team carried a handfull of RB's on the roster, there was no reason not to get them onto the field and see what they had.

[KYPack]

Waldo, great analysis.

All last year, I was trying to figure what was up with Football Outsiders. They had some of the most insightful information out there for a few seasons now. Last year, things went blooey, espec regarding the Packers. FO had us rated very highly all season. But, we were 6-10. How was this possible?

Another point you bring up has still got me wondering. In 2007, we ran slants very effectively. Hell, they won a couple, 3 games for us. Last season, they ran a few slants, but it didn't seem like they were as frequent and certainly not as strategic. Why did MM change up? i realize D;s make adjustments, but coach Mac likes to dictate to the D. that went away a bit last year.

[pbmax]

As you go further down the field, his accuracy outside gets worse and worse. Brett cannot throw an intermediate-deep out, he's one of the NFL's worst at the sideline go, and play callers haven't called post-corner routes for him for years.

But didn't Favre retain the ability to throw deep and to the outside of a cover 2, when the CB releases the WR and the WR heads down the sidelines. Favre is in the pocket holding the safety by looking at an medium route in the middle or a deep route from across the formation. He then comes back to the receiver who is by now well behind the CB with the safety failing to react from the middle of the field?

I don't recall the last time I saw it, but it used to be one of the few big plays we would get against Tampa. Now, this doesn't have to be his best throw as the coverage has give you a big hole in their zone, and he threw some pop flies into it that nearly allowed the safety to get back to the sideline, but he knew how to hold the safety and find that receiver.

And I was never enamored of his ability to accurately throw deep down the sideline when coverage was there. Even the Jennings TD in OT versus Denver was a matter of torching the coverage and having a free run to the throw. Even when he was young, that was not his strength.

[Patler]

Another point you bring up has still got me wondering. In 2007, we ran slants very effectively. Hell, they won a couple, 3 games for us. Last season, they ran a few slants, but it didn't seem like they were as frequent and certainly not as strategic. Why did MM change up? i realize D;s make adjustments, but coach Mac likes to dictate to the D. that went away a bit last year.

MM actually addressed that before the season, when asked how the passing game would change under Rodgers. He said they did not change plays due to the QB change, but the calls in given situations might change due to different strengths and weaknesses of the two players. He specifically mentioned slants, which he said Favre threw as well as any QB ever. He called it their bread and butter route with Favre. He said Rodger threw it OK, like most QBs not named Favre; but he said Rodgers best throws were on intermediate out routes, which Favre didn't throw particularly well, he said (Giants game still on his mind????). So in a given situation, even though all the same plays are there, the call would be different for Rodgers than Favre when going to the player's strength.

It was interesting because he specifically said they would likely throw fewer slants, and that proved true right from the start.

[pbmax]

Another point you bring up has still got me wondering. In 2007, we ran slants very effectively. Hell, they won a couple, 3 games for us. Last season, they ran a few slants, but it didn't seem like they were as frequent and certainly not as strategic. Why did MM change up? i realize D;s make adjustments, but coach Mac likes to dictate to the D. that went away a bit last year.

That's gotta be tape don't you think? If you were preparing for the 2008 Packers, opposing defenses must have spent a lot of time on defending slants. Regardless of the QB. I think defenses wanted that threat to the middle of the field gone.

[Waldo]

As you go further down the field, his accuracy outside gets worse and worse. Brett cannot throw an intermediate-deep out, he's one of the NFL's worst at the sideline go, and play callers haven't called post-corner routes for him for years.

But didn't Favre retain the ability to throw deep and to the outside of a cover 2, when the CB releases the WR and the WR heads down the sidelines. Favre is in the pocket holding the safety by looking at an medium route in the middle or a deep route from across the formation. He then comes back to the receiver who is by now well behind the CB with the safety failing to react from the middle of the field?

I don't recall the last time I saw it, but it used to be one of the few big plays we would get against Tampa. Now, this doesn't have to be his best throw as the coverage has give you a big hole in their zone, and he threw some pop flies into it that nearly allowed the safety to get back to the sideline, but he knew how to hold the safety and find that receiver.

And I was never enamored of his ability to accurately throw deep down the sideline when coverage was there. Even the Jennings TD in OT versus Denver was a matter of torching the coverage and having a free run to the throw. Even when he was young, that was not his strength.

Eye ability and trickery is one thing. Pinpoint accuracy is quite another. I noticed it constantly in 2007 (and thought that it was actually a decent drag on our offense) (after noticing it for several years before), as you went outside, Brett's throws got wild, requiring the WR's make big adjustments to get to the ball; rarely, if ever, did you see a pass drop nicely into their arms that they didn't slow down for, jump for, or change trajectory for.

[Patler]

But didn't Favre retain the ability to throw deep and to the outside of a cover 2, when the CB releases the WR and the WR heads down the sidelines. Favre is in the pocket holding the safety by looking at an medium route in the middle or a deep route from across the formation. He then comes back to the receiver who is by now well behind the CB with the safety failing to react from the middle of the field?

I don't recall the last time I saw it, but it used to be one of the few big plays we would get against Tampa. Now, this doesn't have to be his best throw as the coverage has give you a big hole in their zone, and he threw some pop flies into it that nearly allowed the safety to get back to the sideline, but he knew how to hold the safety and find that receiver.

And I was never enamored of his ability to accurately throw deep down the sideline when coverage was there. Even the Jennings TD in OT versus Denver was a matter of torching the coverage and having a free run to the throw. Even when he was young, that was not his strength.

There was discussion a few years ago about how Favre actually improved on his deep throws under MM. I don't remember what the distance was, but a few years back they used to mention his poor percentage on throws in the air over "X" yards. They talked about some long throw drills MM developed that were used regularly to improve Favre's deep throws, and it really started to pay results in 2007.

[Waldo]

Another point you bring up has still got me wondering. In 2007, we ran slants very effectively. Hell, they won a couple, 3 games for us. Last season, they ran a few slants, but it didn't seem like they were as frequent and certainly not as strategic. Why did MM change up? i realize D;s make adjustments, but coach Mac likes to dictate to the D. that went away a bit last year.

That's gotta be tape don't you think? If you were preparing for the 2008 Packers, opposing defenses must have spent a lot of time on defending slants. Regardless of the QB. I think defenses wanted that threat to the middle of the field gone.

I think that the NFCCG showed MM and the NFL the fallibility of MM's slant based offense.

One thing that it did well, once they fear your slants, in a way it is like built in protection, we could run 4-5 wides safely more as the primary slant defenders are the LB's, the same guys that would blitz the overloaded formation.

But the Giants showed the drawback. Namely with inside tech by the CB's, and 'backers frozen for a step in the slant zone.....good luck with that running game if you are using a ZBS (or any really).

In the NFL, often all it takes is one game for the cat to be out of the bag. IMO the Packers and Pats of 2007 both were living off of the bashing that the Pats gave the Vikes in 2006. That game showed the feasibility of a spread based attack at the NFL level in a new incarnation. I think the NFCCG told MM ha had to move in a new direction or teams would revert to the Giants gameplan on some items.

[KYPack]

Another point you bring up has still got me wondering. In 2007, we ran slants very effectively. Hell, they won a couple, 3 games for us. Last season, they ran a few slants, but it didn't seem like they were as frequent and certainly not as strategic. Why did MM change up? i realize D;s make adjustments, but coach Mac likes to dictate to the D. that went away a bit last year.

That's gotta be tape don't you think? If you were preparing for the 2008 Packers, opposing defenses must have spent a lot of time on defending slants. Regardless of the QB. I think defenses wanted that threat to the middle of the field gone.

I think that the NFCCG showed MM and the NFL the fallibility of MM's slant based offense.

One thing that it did well, once they fear your slants, in a way it is like built in protection, we could run 4-5 wides safely more as the primary slant defenders are the LB's, the same guys that would blitz the overloaded formation.

But the Giants showed the drawback. Namely with inside tech by the CB's, and 'backers frozen for a step in the slant zone.....good luck with that running game if you are using a ZBS (or any really).

In the NFL, often all it takes is one game for the cat to be out of the bag. IMO the Packers and Pats of 2007 both were living off of the bashing that the Pats gave the Vikes in 2006. That game showed the feasibility of a spread based attack at the NFL level in a new incarnation. I think the NFCCG told MM ha had to move in a new direction or teams would revert to the Giants gameplan on some items.

Wow, a good discussion of football. Now I would like to insult Patler, PB and Waldo, call 'em names, and throw a tantrum. At least, that's how it had been done around here sometimes.

I didn't think we could stay slant oriented, either. You must run slants if you want to get big yards on sluggo's and the other breaking routs. But you must ration the slants or your guys will be heading to the hospital.

All the slants do freeze S's and LB's and put 'em in automatic run support. I think Mike will now alter his stuff to take advantage of AR's arm and have a much more varied passing attack. I think we have a great QB and receivers to go with him. We should break a lot of big plays and look much different this season.

I hope, anyhow.

[woodbuck27]

Patler,

i don't know what you believe about this, and it wasn't really relevant to my point. I do believe that the OP had a point to make that wasn't supported by his statistics.

I completely agree that Rodgers might be an anomaly, and he might be the real deal, but any way you look at it, we have to wait for more game experience to know that.

I support Rodgers very much, and am glad he's our QB.

As to the rest of the 'intangibles' I think they're relevant. I also think they're impossible to measure. But, at the end of the day, we need at least two, maybe three more years before any comparisons to Favre will truly have meaning. Right now it is all speculation, with just enough in the way of statistics to give people two things - hope and ammunition.

Well, you should know what I believe about this NOW, because I gave it to you in a series of numbered paragraphs!!!

I agree with most of this. The best that can be said for Rodgers right now is that we have no reason to think that he won't be the QB in GB for the next 10 years. He performed as well as anyone should have hoped he would. He should get better for the next several seasons as he gains experience and confidence. If he does, the Packers will be in very good hands.

I enjoyed Favre's years a lot, but it really was time to make the change because of where Rodgers was at. He needed to start playing.

Just think what a mess this off season would have been if Favre had not "retired" last season? Transitions from icons who want to hang on get very messy in every sport. It's good for the Packers to have that behind them.

Aaron Rodgers looks OK but we still need to see him perform for a couple more seasons. I hope he has the injury monkey off his back too.

Have we accepted Aaron Rodgers? I believe so. That sure seems obvious now to most here yet the damage remains for the bleeding prior to the tournequet.

This thread is like the difference between trying on a Community College Diploma and attending Princeton for a Doctorate. A deep discussion and worthy of a careful read.

GO PACK GO!

[pbmax]

But didn't Favre retain the ability to throw deep and to the outside of a cover 2, when the CB releases the WR and the WR heads down the sidelines. Favre is in the pocket holding the safety by looking at an medium route in the middle or a deep route from across the formation. He then comes back to the receiver who is by now well behind the CB with the safety failing to react from the middle of the field?

I don't recall the last time I saw it, but it used to be one of the few big plays we would get against Tampa. Now, this doesn't have to be his best throw as the coverage has give you a big hole in their zone, and he threw some pop flies into it that nearly allowed the safety to get back to the sideline, but he knew how to hold the safety and find that receiver.

And I was never enamored of his ability to accurately throw deep down the sideline when coverage was there. Even the Jennings TD in OT versus Denver was a matter of torching the coverage and having a free run to the throw. Even when he was young, that was not his strength.

There was discussion a few years ago about how Favre actually improved on his deep throws under MM. I don't remember what the distance was, but a few years back they used to mention his poor percentage on throws in the air over "X" yards. They talked about some long throw drills MM developed that were used regularly to improve Favre's deep throws, and it really started to pay results in 2007.

I don't remember, but is it possible the total number of attempts went down?

And Greg Jennings might have something to do with it as well. As good as Driver is at leaping and adjusting in the middle of the field, he has never seemed comfortable doing the Michael Irvin/Randy Moss tango on the sideline and then leap to get the ball. Part of that might be a height issue as well.

[pbmax]

Another point you bring up has still got me wondering. In 2007, we ran slants very effectively. Hell, they won a couple, 3 games for us. Last season, they ran a few slants, but it didn't seem like they were as frequent and certainly not as strategic. Why did MM change up? i realize D;s make adjustments, but coach Mac likes to dictate to the D. that went away a bit last year.

That's gotta be tape don't you think? If you were preparing for the 2008 Packers, opposing defenses must have spent a lot of time on defending slants. Regardless of the QB. I think defenses wanted that threat to the middle of the field gone.

I think that the NFCCG showed MM and the NFL the fallibility of MM's slant based offense.

One thing that it did well, once they fear your slants, in a way it is like built in protection, we could run 4-5 wides safely more as the primary slant defenders are the LB's, the same guys that would blitz the overloaded formation.

But the Giants showed the drawback. Namely with inside tech by the CB's, and 'backers frozen for a step in the slant zone.....good luck with that running game if you are using a ZBS (or any really).

In the NFL, often all it takes is one game for the cat to be out of the bag. IMO the Packers and Pats of 2007 both were living off of the bashing that the Pats gave the Vikes in 2006. That game showed the feasibility of a spread based attack at the NFL level in a new incarnation. I think the NFCCG told MM ha had to move in a new direction or teams would revert to the Giants gameplan on some items.

All true, but I doubt it took until the NFCCG to get someone to think slant first on an opposing defense. I remember going into the game not being certain we could dominate the run again (not as well as the 3rd week of the season) but thought we could abuse their secondary (weren't they way down on the depth chart?). As it turned out, even in the first half, we did little of either.

[woodbuck27]

But didn't Favre retain the ability to throw deep and to the outside of a cover 2, when the CB releases the WR and the WR heads down the sidelines. Favre is in the pocket holding the safety by looking at an medium route in the middle or a deep route from across the formation. He then comes back to the receiver who is by now well behind the CB with the safety failing to react from the middle of the field?

I don't recall the last time I saw it, but it used to be one of the few big plays we would get against Tampa. Now, this doesn't have to be his best throw as the coverage has give you a big hole in their zone, and he threw some pop flies into it that nearly allowed the safety to get back to the sideline, but he knew how to hold the safety and find that receiver.

And I was never enamored of his ability to accurately throw deep down the sideline when coverage was there. Even the Jennings TD in OT versus Denver was a matter of torching the coverage and having a free run to the throw. Even when he was young, that was not his strength.

There was discussion a few years ago about how Favre actually improved on his deep throws under MM. I don't remember what the distance was, but a few years back they used to mention his poor percentage on throws in the air over "X" yards. They talked about some long throw drills MM developed that were used regularly to improve Favre's deep throws, and it really started to pay results in 2007.

I don't remember, but is it possible the total number of attempts went down?

And Greg Jennings might have something to do with it as well. As good as Driver is at leaping and adjusting in the middle of the field, he has never seemed comfortable doing the Michael Irvin/Randy Moss tango on the sideline and then leap to get the ball. Part of that might be a height issue as well.

pbmax. When Driver came to us I re-call reading he had outstanding jumping capability. I re-call he could high jump over 7 feet. Now getting up that high and looking at the size of his frame might be another thing?

[bobblehead]

hold on a minute...ty got banned?? WTF for? I'm sitting out until he is back in protest. He is a hopeless bleeding liberal, but he does contribute solid stuff quite often.

Anyway Ayn, thanx for picking up the slack. You know how I feel about the spelling and grammar police, so no need for me to respond really.