Linebackers: Will Hawk Be A Two Down Player?

[pbmax]

Pete Dougherty has Chillar pushing AJ Hawk for a starting gig and in line to take reps from him in nickel and other sub packages. He also pegs Chillar as a better cover backer than Barnett and the LB's best blitzer.

Bedard and Tom Silverstein have Desmond Bishop making Hawk look bad with big plays and hits and little hesitation.

Who has the better angle on this? Can Hawk stay with the Packers next year playing two downs? Can Bishop take his spot eventually on 1st and 2nd down? Or does all this come out in the wash when they actually play an exhibition game?

[rbaloha1]

Where are the Hawk apologists?

[Partial]

The question is whether this is excellent that Chill is playing so well, or if Hawk is that big of a dissapointment. I wish I knew whether they were both playing very well (good problem to have) or playing just average (bad problem to have).

[BallHawk]

Where are the Hawk apologists?

3rd year is the year that usually tells you whether the player is gonna be for real or not. Hawk has this year to make an impact.

At this point, I'm not holding my breath with Bishop. I'll believe it when I see him produce on the field. Chillar I'm more inclined to believe he's playing at a realistic level because he's had success elsewhere in the NFL.

To be honest, I think some people are rushing to declare Hawk a bust and thus are trying to justify this by proclaiming mediocre LBs as "outplaying" him. If August turns to Fall and Hawk is getting outplayed ON THE FIELD then I will maybe buy that he's just not that good. Until then, I still believe he's the 2nd best LB on this team.

[Lurker64]

Chillar can't stop the run.

Bishop can't cover.

Hawk can do both.

[Partial]

Chillar can't stop the run.

Bishop can't cover.

Hawk can do both.

I would say you're jumping to conclusions here. How can you say those things when they haven't played a game yet? The responsibilities are going to be significantly different this year. I really think the coverage liabilities will be covered up significantly as you're playing the QB and his eyes versus having to run in a back pedal to keep up with a man breaking off the line.

I'm sticking with not having an opinion on this team until I see them play. Their are a lot of positive signs that some of the players I did not expect to are taking a step up this year though so that is very encouraging.

[b bulldog]

Agree that all posts in here are jumping the gun but I think Bishop may be a better fit than Hawk but we shall see. AJ doesn't have any physicality to his play and he is just an average LB at this point.

[SkinBasket]

Just cut Hawk now. He obviously blows. Maybe we can sign Vick to take his spot and run the wildcat defense.

[Bretsky]

yawn; didn't they just put pads on and are in the process of incorporating a new defense. Guess that still makes me a Hawk apologist

[pbmax]

Just cut Hawk now. He obviously blows. Maybe we can sign Vick to take his spot and run the wildcat defense.

I think you should do a spoken word podcast of your snark. I would subscribe.

My question is what am I supposed to take away from these reports? Chillar has been all but dismissed by JSO. I have seen reports that they have done nothing with nickel or sub defenses yet. So exactly how has Chillar been shining?

I have not read as much Press Gazette coverage, but there other than his hits, there is very little of Bishop's play mentioned.

There was a play described by someone where Tramon Williams found himself alone in deep coverage with no safety help as the safety had been committed to a shorter zone to cover for a blitzing LB. They stated this rarely happened with Sanders defense.

That kind of play makes me think you cannot afford to go one dimensional in the base 3-4. And that this will all look different once they play an actual game.

[Waldo]

As Lurker pointed out, we have yet to hear about the Golden Boys doing good at what they previously were bad at.

At SILB one of the tasks that will frequently happen is clobbering lead blockers. Making sure that the back alone is the one running beyond the line, and that the TE, FB, and pulling G's stop there. Poppinga absolutely excels at this, Hawk has been pretty good over the last few years. I've never seen Bishop do it since he's been at Mike, but all his glowing reports this camp lead me to believe he is not doing this task. A back gets by the line, past the SILB, and has a FB in front of him, chances are an explosive play is about to occur. Back gets past the SILB, but there is no lead blocker, chance of a play going 10+ isn't that great.

Bishop has been beyond terrible at pass coverage. I'm am typically critical of those who are critical or glowing about LB pass coverage, but Bishop was really, really bad. I haven't heard anything to lead me to believe that he has actually improved at this.

Let the reports glow about Bishop. The awfulness of his weaknesses, not the greatness of his strengths, is what is keeping him on the bench.

Likewise with Chillar. He can cover great. He can blitz. He's actually a pretty good tackler too. But, that which Pops was so great at, gap control and lead blocking destruction, Chillar is atrocious at. He is our most easily pancaked linebacker. Chillar is also easily victimized by deception. He's just not good at reading what an offense is trying to do. At SLB last year he let blockers get past him, letting them hit Barnett and the S's. He could be blocked out of his gap. Backs could run through his gap. At WLB he stepped toward the POA and let plays get wide of him, he would get hung up on a backside blocker on occasion, letting a big cutback get past him outside. If hung up on the blocker, redirect the back to the center, to the MLB and FS. The WLB is the last line of defense before an explosive play on the backside. AJ has kept the weak edge closed for 3 years, it opened when Chillar played WLB, and cutback running off a strong POA got far more effective when Chillar was at WLB over Hawk, as Chillar couldn't redirect toward help when beaten.

At WILB he is also going to have to pick up the Barnett task. Namely he has to become the "chase and drag" linebacker. For his faults, Barnett absolutely excels at not letting backs into the third level without first going through him. Basically the FS of the LB's. He is the last line of defense before an explosive play. He must be involved in everything. He must be athletic enough to get to spots and excel at reading where the back is going. Chillar plays a lot like a S, but this is not one of the traits of a safety that I've seen out of him. To excel at WILB he must treat every play as if it is a TD if it gets past him. I've seen this trait in Barnett and he's very good at it (one reason I think that he will excel at WILB).

Just keep the reports of Bishop in the backfield, "blowing up plays", "always around the ball", and Chillar "great pass breakup", and "unblockable blitzer" coming. They really tell us nothing, we know how good they are at that.

I want to hear Bishop "blow up Hall", or "great coverage against Finley", "stop Colledge in his tracks", or hear Chillar "tackling everything", "Grant getting nowhere", "Chillar is always around the ball", "blowing up Kuhn in the hole". These things will indicate to me that their weaknesses aren't as weak, and they might not have as many splinters in their butt this year.

Obviously Barnett is still on the PUP, but one has to assume that he will continue to excel at what he has excelled at. Hawk might not have as much glowing fanfare for his work at SILB, maybe he is doing a better job blowing up the FB's, it just isn't noticed as the back has to cut elsewhere because of what Hawk did. We have heard of Hawk at least being able to get his hands on passes intended for Finley deep down the field.

[Patler]

Bedard's blog comment about Hawk after last night's practice:

This may sound familiar, but the next big play A.J. Hawk makes in practice will be the first. While Desmond Bishop is constantly shooting gaps and trying to make plays, Hawk is still reading and reacting. He is seldom around the ball. He takes on blockers, but is easily turned around. It’s a repeat of last season when he was playing Mike after Barnett went down. On a DeShawn Wynn draw, Hawk could have exploded into the gap but took on Finley -- and lost. However, the coaches are still high on Hawk.

[Fritz]

Reading this thread leads me to believe that the reporters covering the team are a lot more like me than they are like Waldo or Patler or KY or PB or many of the others who frequently comment here.

I'm a fan. I watch and see Bishop blow up a play, or Chillar crush a QB on a blitz or cover someone tight, I think, "Man, that guy is great! He should be starting!" When I see Hawk or Poppinga taking on a blocker and getting tangled up, or when I see Barnett dragging someone down, I think, "Man, that guy sucks. Get him out of there!"

However, that reaction indicates that I am a fan. I don't have the level of expertise to know what each player's real job is (though I am learning thanks to some fine posters on this site). But I'm okay with that. I'm a fan. I can cheer Rogers wildly on one play and then scream that he should be benched on the next play.

I expect more from reporters, though. I expect them to have enough knowledge of the game to know what is required of players at various positions. Instead, they write like mere fans.

And I have to come to Packerrats to get a better understanding of what's really going on in camp.

[rbaloha1]

Bottom Line -- Hawk shall be demoted. Its comical to read about Bishop and Chillar from the Hawk lovers -- Bishop makes plays and was mentioned as one of the better lb blitzers by Capers.

Chillar may not be great at the point of attack but the dude still has the ability to fight thru blockers and make plays. Once Hawk is engaged forget it.

Hawk is a missile when he has an opening with a running start. Explosive tackler once he hits the ball carrier. Then everyone goes "Whoa -- no wonder he was the #5 overall pick."

[rbaloha1]

Hawk would actually be a great wedge buster.