Linebackers: Will Hawk Be A Two Down Player?

[SkinBasket]

Bottom Line -- Hawk shall be demoted. Its comical to read about Bishop and Chillar from the Hawk lovers -- Bishop makes plays and was mentioned as one of the better lb blitzers by Capers.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Reading this thread leads me to believe that the reporters covering the team are a lot more like me than they are like Waldo or Patler or KY or PB or many of the others who frequently comment here.

I'm a fan. I watch and see Bishop blow up a play, or Chillar crush a QB on a blitz or cover someone tight, I think, "Man, that guy is great! He should be starting!" When I see Hawk or Poppinga taking on a blocker and getting tangled up, or when I see Barnett dragging someone down, I think, "Man, that guy sucks. Get him out of there!"

However, that reaction indicates that I am a fan. I don't have the level of expertise to know what each player's real job is (though I am learning thanks to some fine posters on this site). But I'm okay with that. I'm a fan. I can cheer Rogers wildly on one play and then scream that he should be benched on the next play.

I expect more from reporters, though. I expect them to have enough knowledge of the game to know what is required of players at various positions. Instead, they write like mere fans.

And I have to come to Packerrats to get a better understanding of what's really going on in camp.

Very well said Fritz - same boat here.

[ThunderDan]

Chillar may not be great at the point of attack but the dude still has the ability to fight thru blockers and make plays. Once Hawk is engaged forget it.

When last season do you see him take on a block, shed it and then make a tackle? I sure don't remeber that at all.

He was excellent in pass coverage and when he ran free from the backside of the play to make a tackle.

[rbaloha1]

Chillar may not be great at the point of attack but the dude still has the ability to fight thru blockers and make plays. Once Hawk is engaged forget it.

When last season do you see him take on a block, shed it and then make a tackle? I sure don't remeber that at all.

He was excellent in pass coverage and when he ran free from the backside of the play to make a tackle.

Chillar does not over power at the point of attack like Ray Lewis--Chillar uses angles to knife thru blockers to reach ball carrier. However, like Hawk, once engaged forget it.

IMO the most complete lb is Barnett prior to the injury.

[wist43]

I've been a critic of the Packers LB'ers for years... historically, the have never really scouted or drafted the position well - but, of course, they haven't scouted or drafted well on the defensive side of the ball in general. We won the SB in '96 b/c Wolf went out and bought himself an entire DL.

Matthews is the only LB on the roster that actually fits the 3-4. Hawk should be a decent fit in the middle, but he's never going to be a difference maker. Chiller is soft, Bishop is a slug, Barnett is soft and stupid, and Kampman and Thompson are both DE's trying to play LB.

TT has a long way to go to make over this position.

[rbaloha1]

I've been a critic of the Packers LB'ers for years... historically, the have never really scouted or drafted the position well - but, of course, they haven't scouted or drafted well on the defensive side of the ball in general. We won the SB in '96 b/c Wolf went out and bought himself an entire DL.

Matthews is the only LB on the roster that actually fits the 3-4. Hawk should be a decent fit in the middle, but he's never going to be a difference maker. Chiller is soft, Bishop is a slug, Barnett is soft and stupid, and Kampman and Thompson are both DE's trying to play LB.

TT has a long way to go to make over this position.

Agree with a portion of your post. A new scheme requires a different skill set for lbs. -- something which is not completely apparent with the current roster Give TT one more season to find the correct pieces.

Yes, Matthews may be a step in the right direction.

[gbgary]

hawk's had a pretty quiet two years that's for sure. nothing real good...nothing real bad. is that consistency or is something else?

[pbmax]

Bottom Line -- Hawk shall be demoted. Its comical to read about Bishop and Chillar from the Hawk lovers -- Bishop makes plays and was mentioned as one of the better lb blitzers by Capers.

Chillar may not be great at the point of attack but the dude still has the ability to fight thru blockers and make plays. Once Hawk is engaged forget it.

Hawk is a missile when he has an opening with a running start. Explosive tackler once he hits the ball carrier. Then everyone goes "Whoa -- no wonder he was the #5 overall pick."

Its an interesting case study in the psychology of deduction.

We have reporters telling us Chillar is great in coverage and blitzes and is running around making plays. Also that Bishop is great at charing through gaps, making big hits and tackles. Hawk does not get notice, except by the lack of notice.

One group takes all this in and proclaims Hawk needs to be replaced by these two as he is clearly less than adequate.

Others take this in and note the coaches still have Hawk a starter and Barnett lined up to reclaim his starting position after he is cleared medically. And these coaches might know more than the reporters or fans.

One group concludes that there might be something lacking in Bishop and Chillar.

The other group concludes that folks that don't agree with them are blinded because they are Hawk Lovers. And, and I am supposing here. that the GM is interfering here in the natural football order. Probably because he is protecting his precious draft pick

And only Bretsky and Skin note we haven't played a down of real football yet.

[MadScientist]

Reading this thread leads me to believe that the reporters covering the team are a lot more like me than they are like Waldo or Patler or KY or PB or many of the others who frequently comment here.

Can we get Waldo in as our TC reporter? An article or two from him would blow away anything we get from reporters (and be a hell of a lead for the home page).

[SkinBasket]

And only Bretsky and Skin note we haven't played a down of real football yet.

Hell, we haven't played a down of fake football yet.

I'm a little confused as to how Hawk has somehow become a punching bag over the off season. I don't remember anywhere near this level of criticism at the end of the season. You know, the season where he played injured the entire year and was filling a position he was unfamiliar with for a third of it? The same season we lost our starting DE in front of him and had a revolving door at safety behind him.

But whatever. Bishop must be a superior player because he hits people hard in preseason and TC, then generally looks like his brain's been addled when called upon in the regular season. And Chillar has proven what a reliable player he is every time he steps on the field and makes it look like he's taken coverage lessons from Bigby and plays like he walks at 150 pounds.

[SkinBasket]

Can we get Waldo in as our TC reporter? An article or two from him would blow away anything we get from reporters (and be a hell of a lead for the home page).

A picture of a dead squirrel would be a better lead for the home page right now as long as it linked to the forum instead of claiming the entire site has been down for maintenance for several months.

[bobblehead]

As Lurker pointed out, we have yet to hear about the Golden Boys doing good at what they previously were bad at.

At SILB one of the tasks that will frequently happen is clobbering lead blockers. Making sure that the back alone is the one running beyond the line, and that the TE, FB, and pulling G's stop there. Poppinga absolutely excels at this, Hawk has been pretty good over the last few years. I've never seen Bishop do it since he's been at Mike, but all his glowing reports this camp lead me to believe he is not doing this task. A back gets by the line, past the SILB, and has a FB in front of him, chances are an explosive play is about to occur. Back gets past the SILB, but there is no lead blocker, chance of a play going 10+ isn't that great.

Bishop has been beyond terrible at pass coverage. I'm am typically critical of those who are critical or glowing about LB pass coverage, but Bishop was really, really bad. I haven't heard anything to lead me to believe that he has actually improved at this.

Let the reports glow about Bishop. The awfulness of his weaknesses, not the greatness of his strengths, is what is keeping him on the bench.

Likewise with Chillar. He can cover great. He can blitz. He's actually a pretty good tackler too. But, that which Pops was so great at, gap control and lead blocking destruction, Chillar is atrocious at. He is our most easily pancaked linebacker. Chillar is also easily victimized by deception. He's just not good at reading what an offense is trying to do. At SLB last year he let blockers get past him, letting them hit Barnett and the S's. He could be blocked out of his gap. Backs could run through his gap. At WLB he stepped toward the POA and let plays get wide of him, he would get hung up on a backside blocker on occasion, letting a big cutback get past him outside. If hung up on the blocker, redirect the back to the center, to the MLB and FS. The WLB is the last line of defense before an explosive play on the backside. AJ has kept the weak edge closed for 3 years, it opened when Chillar played WLB, and cutback running off a strong POA got far more effective when Chillar was at WLB over Hawk, as Chillar couldn't redirect toward help when beaten.

At WILB he is also going to have to pick up the Barnett task. Namely he has to become the "chase and drag" linebacker. For his faults, Barnett absolutely excels at not letting backs into the third level without first going through him. Basically the FS of the LB's. He is the last line of defense before an explosive play. He must be involved in everything. He must be athletic enough to get to spots and excel at reading where the back is going. Chillar plays a lot like a S, but this is not one of the traits of a safety that I've seen out of him. To excel at WILB he must treat every play as if it is a TD if it gets past him. I've seen this trait in Barnett and he's very good at it (one reason I think that he will excel at WILB).

Just keep the reports of Bishop in the backfield, "blowing up plays", "always around the ball", and Chillar "great pass breakup", and "unblockable blitzer" coming. They really tell us nothing, we know how good they are at that.

I want to hear Bishop "blow up Hall", or "great coverage against Finley", "stop Colledge in his tracks", or hear Chillar "tackling everything", "Grant getting nowhere", "Chillar is always around the ball", "blowing up Kuhn in the hole". These things will indicate to me that their weaknesses aren't as weak, and they might not have as many splinters in their butt this year.

Obviously Barnett is still on the PUP, but one has to assume that he will continue to excel at what he has excelled at. Hawk might not have as much glowing fanfare for his work at SILB, maybe he is doing a better job blowing up the FB's, it just isn't noticed as the back has to cut elsewhere because of what Hawk did. We have heard of Hawk at least being able to get his hands on passes intended for Finley deep down the field.

Waldo, we left off in the other thread with me pointing out that with the rams chillar was a 1st and 2nd down LB starter who came out vs. the pass. You also claimed the rams had no interest in resigning him, but they offered him more money than we did, but he chose to play with a winner (or percieved winner anyway).

I agree he isn't poppinga in destroying a running lane, but he is solid (much like hawk) in the run and the best LB we have in pass coverage and blitz. I stand by my guns, he is the best we have and more than likely will start this year at some point if not immediately.

[Waldo]

Reading this thread leads me to believe that the reporters covering the team are a lot more like me than they are like Waldo or Patler or KY or PB or many of the others who frequently comment here.

Can we get Waldo in as our TC reporter? An article or two from him would blow away anything we get from reporters (and be a hell of a lead for the home page).

I called Bedard on his (and all the other reporters) nonsense in a series of tweets this morning (replies to him, so he surely can read them), basically telling him what I said, it isn't how good their good traits are, it is how bad their bad ones are, that are keeping Bishop and Chillar playing second fiddle and filling their asses with splinters.

When they start telling us that Bishop is cutting down on the overpursuit and is looking good in coverage, or that Chillar isn't letting any backs through anywhere on the field, and is being physical in the hole, I'll start listening to this nonsense.

[Waldo]

Waldo, we left off in the other thread with me pointing out that with the rams chillar was a 1st and 2nd down LB starter who came out vs. the pass. You also claimed the rams had no interest in resigning him, but they offered him more money than we did, but he chose to play with a winner (or percieved winner anyway).

I agree he isn't poppinga in destroying a running lane, but he is solid (much like hawk) in the run and the best LB we have in pass coverage and blitz. I stand by my guns, he is the best we have and more than likely will start this year at some point if not immediately.

I can't respond to it. I really don't care what he did with the Rams.

When he played for the Packers he was blown up by lead blockers, couldn't defend the weak corner, and let runners in cutback lanes cut underneath him.

The only way he starts if if Barnett isn't full go to start the season.

[mission]

Wasn't Hawk last year the only guy who could consistently bring down AP? I seem to remember a few plays where I was thinking "phew, thank god he's such a sure tackler" ...