Any Noise about a Potential Hawk Trade?

[Patler]

Waldo;

I agree with your facts, but disagree with your opinion about how those facts will impact TT. That doesn't mean that I think he will trade or release Hawk, I doubt that will happen. But, the salary cap impact alone would not prevent TT from doing it, if he thought it was a good deal to do so.

I thought that was part of the point in staying so far under the cap. It allows you to shed players without having to wait until you can push the cap hit out into future years.

That is one of the advantages. It allows you to make more current decisions based on football impact.

[rbaloha1]

Agree -- Hawk probably will not get traded. At least the Hawk apologists have toned it down and reluctantly give backhanded props to the "backups."

[HarveyWallbangers]

Agree -- Hawk probably will not get traded. At least the Hawk apologists have toned it down and reluctantly give backhanded props to the "backups."

This is just silly. Go back to threads at the end of last season. I said that Chillar was our best LB last year. Hawk wasn't good. However, Hawk was better the previous two years than Chillar was last year. Hawk detractors act like he wasn't solid his first two years.

[Patler]

This is just silly. Go back to threads at the end of last season. I said that Chillar was our best LB last year. Hawk wasn't good. However, Hawk was better the previous two years than Chillar was last year. Hawk detractors act like he wasn't solid his first two years.

Injuries aside, the change in Hawk is something I don't fully understand. At the start of year 2, there was legitimate talk of Hawk becoming a real impact player. However, his performance tailed of in that regard even the second half of '07, and I am not aware of any injuries of significance then. He became "steady" and "dependable." These are not bad things, but it doesn't make him special, and there seemed to be a chance for him to be at least moderately special.

[Dabaddestbear]

As much as I like to make fun of AJ Pigeon, he is by far you guys most solid all around LB. He will never be a superstar LB, or even an exciting player to watch. But he always seems to be in the right place to make the tackle. He doesnt get washed up in the wrong hole as much as Barnett, and doesn't overrun plays as much as Poppinga(spelling?). needless to say, if you guys do get rid of him, as a Bears fan I will be happy, knowing it will only take away a solid asset on your team.

I agree, but at some point his salary may exceed his value by more than can be tolerated. Hawk has not been the impact player hoped for, nor has he been the player he seemed on his way to becoming as a rookie. I'm not sure what happened. He had a quickness or suddenness to his game that was gone last year, perhaps due to the injuries. But I haven't seen any indication of it returning this year, although there isn't much of a sample to review yet in '09.

How many years do he have left from his Rookie contract? And does that value exceed what the average starting (overall best) LB on each team makes at his position?

[SkinBasket]

Agree -- Hawk probably will not get traded. At least the Hawk apologists have toned it down and reluctantly give backhanded props to the "backups."

What is there to tone down? Hawk played adequately despite 2 injuries, playing 1/3 of the games at a different position, and surround by a ramshackle defense. The back-up players at the other inside LB position have played well in the preseason. Whoopie. I think you're fighting 95% of this battle in your head.

[Pugger]

I don't understand all the hate Hawk gets on some of these Packer forums. I suppose because he was the #5 overall pick folks think he is a bust because he isn't the second coming of Lawrence Taylor. He's been solid and doesn't mess up too often even when he had to play with that sorry defense last yr. I'm hoping he thrives in Capers' scheme this season.

[Lurker64]

I think a lot of people who are being critical of Hawk in the preseason (including Gred Bedard) don't really understand the role of the position Hawk is playing in this defense.

IIRC the two ILBs in the Capers system are named the "Mack" (WILB) and "Buck" (SILB). So far, the Mack position has been manned by Chillar and Bishop with Barnett Pencilled in, and Hawk has been playing the Buck for the #1s.

The theory of offense is to always have blockers in every gap equal to the number of defenders in that gap. If the blockers execute their jobs succesfully, that means that either the ballcarrier gets to the second level or the there is no pressure applied to the passer through that gap. Correspondingly, the defense wants a player in every gap, plus one guy who makes the tackle.

On running plays, usually, the offense usually try to send an extra blocker (the lead blocker), to take out the LB in the gap being attacked, so there's nobody around in order to make the tackle. In the Capers defense, the Buck's job is to prevent this from happening. The Buck engages any blockers who look like they're going to try to put a hat on the Mack, so that the Mack can make the tackle in the inside running game.

Correspondingly, in the passing game, Blitzes often get home by overloading a particular gap. If there are more defensive players in a given gap than there are blockers, someone usually breaks free. In the Capers defense, it's the Buck's job to engage a blocker who would otherwise engage the blitzer whose job it is to get home.

So when people watch games and practices this year, they see Hawk failing to get off blocks, and not getting sacks or pressures and they see Bishop and Chillar making play after play, and they think that Hawk is not doing his job. In fact, the reason Bishop and Chillar are making so many plays, is because Hawk is doing his job. Hawk's not playing the playmaking ILB spot, he's playing the banger ILB spot, and you can tell whether or not the banger is doing a good job by whether or not the playmaker is making plays... and so far so good.

[mission]

Nice post, Lurk. I wasn't sure about the roles of the ILBs... makes plenty sense.

[swede]

Excellent work, Lurker!

Check your fourth paragraph where you said tackler when I think you meant blocker.

I see your point clearly, but as a practical matter I can't imagine how one player can, in effect, take himself out of the play as a tackler solely in order to engage a blocker. From AJ's point of view is he keying on the lead blocker on running plays and filling that gap? In that case one would think he'd be in on a fair amount of tackles near the LOS.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hawk was in on at least 3 tackles that netted 3 yards or less in the last game...whether he was credited or not. Rewatch the game, and tell me if you think Hawk did a good job or not. I'm not sure how anybody could be dissatisfied with anything they've seen out of the first team offense or defense in this last game. (I only saw the final 3 quarters of the Cleveland game, so I can't judge that.)

[swede]

Hawk was in on at least 3 tackles that netted 3 yards or less in the last game...whether he was credited or not. Rewatch the game, and tell me if you think Hawk did a good job or not. I'm not sure how anybody could be dissatisfied with anything they've seen out of the first team offense or defense in this last game. (I only saw the final 3 quarters of the Cleveland game, so I can't judge that.)

And I thought Hawk--for the first time in forever--was kind of fired up and playing with a lot of outward emotion. He was pissed that he didn't get the TD off his strip of the QB! When I saw him all worked up I asked myself if I had EVER seen him geeked up in a game! I liked it, and I think that he should learn to play like a crazy man. Desmond Bishop is, and there are only so many minutes of playing time to go around.

[]{ilr]3]

Hawk was in on at least 3 tackles that netted 3 yards or less in the last game...whether he was credited or not. Rewatch the game, and tell me if you think Hawk did a good job or not. I'm not sure how anybody could be dissatisfied with anything they've seen out of the first team offense or defense in this last game. (I only saw the final 3 quarters of the Cleveland game, so I can't judge that.)

And I thought Hawk--for the first time in forever--was kind of fired up and playing with a lot of outward emotion. He was pissed that he didn't get the TD off his strip of the QB! When I saw him all worked up I asked myself if I had EVER seen him geeked up in a game! I liked it, and I think that he should learn to play like a crazy man. Desmond Bishop is, and there are only so many minutes of playing time to go around.

I think it was a few plays after that Hawk seriously over pursued the RB and wiffed a tackle. The runner ran for 1st down after that. Granted a 1 on 1 RB/LB is what the offense was trying to get, but still, he had the chance and blew it.

I am a Hawk fan, though.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Yep, he did do that. He was in coverage on the play and slipped by the ballcarrier. I noted that earlier. He was damn stout against the run though. I also noted that Chillar gave up a catch in coverage.

[Lurker64]

I see your point clearly, but as a practical matter I can't imagine how one player can, in effect, take himself out of the play as a tackler solely in order to engage a blocker. From AJ's point of view is he keying on the lead blocker on running plays and filling that gap? In that case one would think he'd be in on a fair amount of tackles near the LOS.

Well, this is really the schematic advantage the 3-4 has against the run that the 4-3 does not.

In the 4-3 defense, the lead blocker on the running play engages a linebacker and that linebacker has to beat the block in order to make the tackle or one of the other two linebackers needs to pursue and make the tackle.

In the 3-4 on a running play, you have two linebackers specifically keying on the running back. Having a lead blocker in that case does not help, because there will be one of two ILBs unblocked and he will make the tackle. Schematically, the Capers defense doesn't wait for the lead blocker to come to you and block the player of his choice, it just has one linebacker whose responsibility is always "hit the first guy who comes through the hole". Sometimes that guy is going to be the running back, and the Buck makes the tackle, but more often than not it's going to be a lead blocker and even though the Buck doesn't "make the play" in this case, he's doing something valuable as the Mack is now allowed to go one on one with the ballcarrier.

So Hawk's responsibility is pretty much "hit the first guy you see in your appointed gap and keep him from blocking anybody else downfield if he's not the ballcarrier", since on running plays ideally once the play has gotten to the second level, blockers peel off whoever they're blocking and go hit someone else downfield, as most running backs can easily outrun most defensive linemen in a footrace.