NFC North QB Race 2009

[Rastak]

Been too busy to update this.

After week 6 we have.....


1. Favre 109.5 (Yikes!)
2. Rodgers 104.1
3. Cutler 86.8
4. Stafford 65.9 (Not sure who to put here!)

[MadScientist]

As an experiment, I wanted to see what the numbers would be if you added in the sacks (treated like an incomplete pass) and sac yardage:

Favre 99.7
Rodgers 87.0
Culter 81.0
Stafford 59.0

The reason for doing this is to get an idea of the total effectiveness of the passing game (it could be argued that the QB rushing should be added in, but how do you figure that into the attempts / completions and you also need to remove the designed runs - kneel down and sneaks).

As expected Rodgers takes the biggest hit, going from outstanding to a bit above average, which is more in line with the effectiveness of the Packers passing game this season.

[packerbacker1234]

Been too busy to update this.

After week 6 we have.....


1. Favre 109.5 (Yikes!)
2. Rodgers 104.1
3. Cutler 86.8
4. Stafford 65.9 (Not sure who to put here!)

Favre has just been scary good, definitely looking like his 2007 form all over again. Now that he has a dome, if they keep winning playoffs could be mostly in good weather, which is perfect for #4 at age 40.

Rodgers is doing what he did last year: Putting up the stats but does not have all the W's to back it up.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Been too busy to update this.

After week 6 we have.....


1. Favre 109.5 (Yikes!)
2. Rodgers 104.1
3. Cutler 86.8
4. Stafford 65.9 (Not sure who to put here!)

Favre has just been scary good, definitely looking like his 2007 form all over again. Now that he has a dome, if they keep winning playoffs could be mostly in good weather, which is perfect for #4 at age 40.

Rodgers is doing what he did last year: Putting up the stats but does not have all the W's to back it up.

Yeah, being above 500 with an incredibly weak line and average defense is definitely a black eye for Arod.

We should have never have signed him to the extension. Another bad move for TT.

[MOBB DEEP]

sigh

[SnakeLH2006]

As an experiment, I wanted to see what the numbers would be if you added in the sacks (treated like an incomplete pass) and sac yardage:

Favre 99.7
Rodgers 87.0
Culter 81.0
Stafford 59.0

The reason for doing this is to get an idea of the total effectiveness of the passing game (it could be argued that the QB rushing should be added in, but how do you figure that into the attempts / completions and you also need to remove the designed runs - kneel down and sneaks).

As expected Rodgers takes the biggest hit, going from outstanding to a bit above average, which is more in line with the effectiveness of the Packers passing game this season.

Snake agrees with your logic Mad. Arod's sacks are hurting the bottom line. I really like Arod, but the dude takes some crazy sacks without throwing it away that REALLY hurts the team. Big sacks (like 10 yarders). Don't call Snake a Brett apologist, but that was my fav. thing about Brett (still is) that he has some pocket savvy to elude a rush (throw it away...sometimes a long pick..but like a punt). ARod pads his mystical QB rating that way. QB rating is usually spot on, but in ARod's case, it's a joke with those sacks. when you face 2nd and 22. Favre never did that shit. His RARE sacks were for 3-4 yards. Dismiss/bag on it all you want, but that is why Favre won/wins with lesser QB rating in a nutshell. Guys with ARod's stats should win most games. Sacks DO NOT come into the equation. Dude has very little pocket awareness (or doesn't want bad stats and takes a HUGE sack). Whatever though. That's in a nutshell why Favre at 40 is better than Arod at 26.

[packerbacker1234]

As an experiment, I wanted to see what the numbers would be if you added in the sacks (treated like an incomplete pass) and sac yardage:

Favre 99.7
Rodgers 87.0
Culter 81.0
Stafford 59.0

The reason for doing this is to get an idea of the total effectiveness of the passing game (it could be argued that the QB rushing should be added in, but how do you figure that into the attempts / completions and you also need to remove the designed runs - kneel down and sneaks).

As expected Rodgers takes the biggest hit, going from outstanding to a bit above average, which is more in line with the effectiveness of the Packers passing game this season.

Snake agrees with your logic Mad. Arod's sacks are hurting the bottom line. I really like Arod, but the dude takes some crazy sacks without throwing it away that REALLY hurts the team. Big sacks (like 10 yarders). Don't call Snake a Brett apologist, but that was my fav. thing about Brett (still is) that he has some pocket savvy to elude a rush (throw it away...sometimes a long pick..but like a punt). ARod pads his mystical QB rating that way. QB rating is usually spot on, but in ARod's case, it's a joke with those sacks. when you face 2nd and 22. Favre never did that shit. His RARE sacks were for 3-4 yards. Dismiss/bag on it all you want, but that is why Favre won/wins with lesser QB rating in a nutshell. Guys with ARod's stats should win most games. Sacks DO NOT come into the equation. Dude has very little pocket awareness (or doesn't want bad stats and takes a HUGE sack). Whatever though. That's in a nutshell why Favre at 40 is better than Arod at 26.

Thats just it. I made a small post and the first remark was mocking me, and how were above .500. We are barely above .500, and the only decent team we beat is Chicago. Not only are they the only decent team, it took a long pass play at the end, and 4, count it, 4 Cutler picks for us to even get the win. We then lost to Cincinati, and Minnesota. Two good teams. We Struggled a lot during the rams game before putting them away, and we beat the Lions... which never really means much. Especially with all their injuries, and no Stafford. And hell, we couldn't really blow them out either. Yeah we had a shut out, but the offense continuously shot itself in the foot time and time again.

So, tell me this, how is his stats this year, and his "one game above .500" really a good defense at this point? The Packers have literally beaten nobody, and have looked like crap against the teams they did beat.

I like Rodgers, and when you get the stats he does generally you will win, but he just doesn't have what #4 has. Yeah, the line is bad, and yeah he is going to take hits. He doesn't need to take this many sacks. On pace for 80 on the year? He has noted, so has MM, that some of the sacks are his fault... and it may be more then some.

THe pass protection for #4 in minnesota has been pretty shitty, in case no one noticed, and he takes the hits but not nearly the amount of sacks AR does. Couple negatives I note that we are missing at the QB position

- Pocket Awareness
- Slant Pass

On the later, it's always argued that teams "take it away", but how come in 16/17 seasons, what 18 now, not one team was able to take it away from #4? To me, saying that is a cop out. Many teams throw the slant on a regular basis, and if it could be stopped on a regular basis no one would do it, but it can't. It's a really damn hard pattern to do a lot about. You go man, the WR can work you. You go zone and windows open up. They clog the middle you fake slant go long, or go back outside. I have brought it up before and people seemed to dismiss it, but it's a big part of the WCO, and we are completely missing it. Considering all these WR's currently have been catching the slant (it was the biggest reasons for the YAC yards) the only change is QB. It's a quick play, needs minimal protection.

I just don't think AR is comfortable throwing in traffic, which is what a slant is at times. It needs to be crisp, on target, without the fear. It needs to be seen, when to hit the first window, when to wait to the second, and when to look off to another receiver. AR is a good QB, but those two key components do hurt the offense. No more slants, and bad pocket awareness.

This isn't a revelation with the pocket awareness either: He struggled with it last year too, and it stand sout more now because this year he has even more pressure on him. Yes, the line can play better, and in the same breath, AR can prevent the 10 yard sacks.

[pbmax]

On the later, it's always argued that teams "take it away", but how come in 16/17 seasons, what 18 now, not one team was able to take it away from #4?

The reason this statement is false is because the premise is ludicrous. Many teams took away the slant from the 90's Packers, and depending on the level of skill of the defense or the DBs, they either still completed it or they adjusted their routes and went outside or the TE down the middle.

You do recall the TE down the middle? On of the reasons that is effective is that to stop the slant, you must either have phenomenal DB play with inside technique or commit a LB or S to get in the short passing lanes. That leaves TEs in single coverage or zone with a seam deep down the middle.

You also may recall that Sherman/Rossley did not throw nearly as many slants as Holmgren. You might also recall that throwing to the middle of the field was Favre's singular strength. Rodgers throws deep and outside better than Favre.

Right now, part of the issue is that we have a mismatch on OL and QB strength. Rodgers clearly can throw to the middle and to the checkdown (remember all mouth breathers thought that he was a checkdown artist for three years) but prefers to go up top or deep outside. When he waits, or goes outside the progression, he is getting into trouble. But this doesn't happen every play, nor is it solely a function of the play call. The Packers don't run a play called Everyone Slant very often (they did do it in the five wide). So while you are blaming the play calling, some of what you are seeing is the QB making a decision about whom to throw to.

Please also remember that Favre had no functional internal clock until the second half of the 1994 season. Two and one half years as a starter. Patience.

[bobblehead]

As an experiment, I wanted to see what the numbers would be if you added in the sacks (treated like an incomplete pass) and sac yardage:

Favre 99.7
Rodgers 87.0
Culter 81.0
Stafford 59.0

The reason for doing this is to get an idea of the total effectiveness of the passing game (it could be argued that the QB rushing should be added in, but how do you figure that into the attempts / completions and you also need to remove the designed runs - kneel down and sneaks).

As expected Rodgers takes the biggest hit, going from outstanding to a bit above average, which is more in line with the effectiveness of the Packers passing game this season.

Actually I like this, and it is very relevant. Way back when we were bickering about BF I said I believed it was time for him to go, but I would probably regret it once in awhile when Arod held the ball too long and took sacks like most guys do early in their career.

I will also say this adjustment favors cutler (as it should). He seems to have a very fast release, not quite Marino like, but still enviable. Its about the only part of his game I really like.

[bobblehead]

ARod pads his mystical QB rating that way. QB rating is usually spot on, but in ARod's case, it's a joke with those sacks. when you face 2nd and 22.

Ok, but one thing...if you pass on 12 straight first downs without even pretending to run and have an empty backfield often....you will see too many 2nd and 22's. That being said, its still on ARod to fire it into the 3rd row at Lambeau.

[bobblehead]

Thats just it. I made a small post and the first remark was mocking me, and how were above .500. We are barely above .500, and the only decent team we beat is Chicago. Not only are they the only decent team, it took a long pass play at the end, and 4, count it, 4 Cutler picks for us to even get the win.

I don't mean to discount your post, but I would point out that the 2 teams that beat us have been extremely good this season....so it goes both ways. And the truth is we are about like that. I would say we are a 10-12 team in the league right now. Top 1/3. We are not a top 5 team, which minnesota and it is appearing cincinatti are.

I'll take it a step further. We were about 2 seconds from having a shot at tying cincinatti and Minnesota had 2 GREAT onside recoveries from Rice to make sure we didn't win that game. We also ran the ball a combined 30 times in those 2 games.

Unless we improve or get worse we will beat the average/below average teams and lose to most of the other top 10 teams. Good news is we only play 2 such teams the rest of the way and we get Minn IN GB next time. Hell, we MIGHT still end up with 10-11 wins.

[packerbacker1234]

ARod pads his mystical QB rating that way. QB rating is usually spot on, but in ARod's case, it's a joke with those sacks. when you face 2nd and 22.

Ok, but one thing...if you pass on 12 straight first downs without even pretending to run and have an empty backfield often....you will see too many 2nd and 22's. That being said, its still on ARod to fire it into the 3rd row at Lambeau.

That just means the play is predicitable. It's just as precitable in a 2 minute drill as well. You know he's going to pass, so it's not an excuse. As you said, throwing it into the 3rd row, or some how making a play, is what needs to happen regardless. No excuse for 2nd and 22.

[bobblehead]

ARod pads his mystical QB rating that way. QB rating is usually spot on, but in ARod's case, it's a joke with those sacks. when you face 2nd and 22.

Ok, but one thing...if you pass on 12 straight first downs without even pretending to run and have an empty backfield often....you will see too many 2nd and 22's. That being said, its still on ARod to fire it into the 3rd row at Lambeau.

That just means the play is predicitable. It's just as precitable in a 2 minute drill as well. You know he's going to pass, so it's not an excuse. As you said, throwing it into the 3rd row, or some how making a play, is what needs to happen regardless. No excuse for 2nd and 22.

It certainly is an excuse...especially when you knock the guy for getting sacked on first down. First down should be a run about 70% of the time. We don't...the D is pinning the ears back and bringing the heat. I defy ANY LT in the game, including Jon Ogden, to stop Jared Allen from the QB if he doesn't even THINK about the run.

As I have stated, some of this falls on Arod, some on the OLine, and some on MM. Early in Berts career he was really good at taking sacks, and tossing picks. Will Arod progress? Will the OLine and MM help him?? I can't say for sure, but we at least have reason to believe it may be the case.

[Zool]

2 things

1. Leave Ras's thread alone. There are 6000 threads with Arod/Farve bs. Be courteous and use them.

2. Do we really need to keep rehashing this same shit? Honestly?

[bobblehead]

2 things

1. Leave Ras's thread alone. There are 6000 threads with Arod/Favre bs. Be courteous and use them.

2. Do we really need to keep rehashing this same shit? Honestly?

Apologies. I didn't mean to involve BF in this at all when I started, I was merely responding to the sacks adjustment which I did say was relevant. I only mentioned BF one time that I can think of and that was saying even when I was glad we were moving on, there was something I would miss...his experience in getting rid of the ball. I hardly think that qualifies as ARod/Favre BS.

Should I refrain from discussing Cutlers lighting release as well?? I'm not sure where I can go and what is taboo anymore. I thought I was discussing NFC north QB's, their ratings, and another poster's sack adjustments. That is what this thread is about right? Please PM me the accepted topics of discussion so we can get our daily posts on this site down even more.

Now that I think of it, that kinda ticks me off. Honestly, was I outta line??