Donald Driver

[MichiganPackerFan]

ALL that driver's done for pack i think anyone not in support of him being extended is insane

That being said, thats what i hate about the nature of the nfl (not for long), mere property in so many cases. It SUCKS that fans are often just as bad as the brass, treating these cats like pieces of meat. Thats why i LOVE when cats like Lord Favre exercise their leverage

Since when is selling your soul considered "leverage"?

he he....not just favre; Eli and marshall

Eli is such a douche. I'll never forgive him for acting the way he did.

Exactly.

[Waldo]

The ability to catch targeted passes is more important than drops. Drops are subjective (at what point is a pass a drop), and aside from the easy to view embarrassment factor, tell you very little.

Some receivers are just better pass catchers than others. It is more than their hands. Ball tracking ability, trajectory anticipation, leaping ability, shielding ability, throw anticipation, physical ability to adjust, and hands all play a role. Jones is a pretty good player across the board, but at this particular skill he is elite. Don, while above average, is no more than pretty good. The only part of that equation that Jones isn't great at are his hands, however when you add it up, Jones catches the highest % of passes thrown to him of all our WR's.

In fact if people listen, I've said this all offseason. I'm not saying cut Driver phase him out. Use him for what he does best. Don is an ELITE slot WR. He is every bit as good as Wes Welker. All of his best work is done in the slot, and that is the area of the field he excels. We use him there anyway. But on the occasions that we put 2 WR's on the field, one of the other guys, Jordy or Jones, would be better options than Don IMO. Most of the time those are run plays anyway, and when they aren't, they typically are PA, where there is a lot of value to a sideline threat, something that Don is not. You want to see Finley kill em' down the seam on play action, it ain't going to happen with Don holding the safety in the middle of the field. Put two sidline go threats out there, and the safety is drawn away from the seam.

[bobblehead]

for anyone questioning DD's hands I have one thing to say:

ZERO: The number of dropped passes by DD in 2008!

[Waldo]

for anyone questioning DD's hands I have one thing to say:

ZERO: The number of dropped passes by DD in 2008!

64.3 - The % of targeted passes Don caught in 2008.

69.0 - The % of targeted passes Jones caught in 2008.

And if you are want to argue that Jones caught more dumpoffs and Don caught tougher passes, each one averaged 13.7 YPR last year. Each pass on average gained the same number of yards between the two players.

[HarveyWallbangers]

for anyone questioning DD's hands I have one thing to say:

ZERO: The number of dropped passes by DD in 2008!

64.3 - The % of targeted passes Don caught in 2008.

69.0 - The % of targeted passes Jones caught in 2008.

And if you are want to argue that Jones caught more dumpoffs and Don caught tougher passes, each one averaged 13.7 YPR last year. Each pass on average gained the same number of yards between the two players.

Each CATCH averaged the same gain. We don't know how far down the field each incompletion was. Also, Jones didn't get a lot of balls thrown his way because he wasn't healthy. Small sample size. Going by your stats, you are stating that an injured Jones was better than a healthy Driver last year.


The stats also don't tell you who covered each respective receiver. Driver got his stats going against a team's #1 or #2 corner and with occasional double teams. Jones got his stats mostly going against a team's #3 or #4 corner (nickelback or dimeback) and with little help.

[RashanGary]

And Jones really had a down year last year. Nothing was right. He was playing scared with that knee.

[sharpe1027]

for anyone questioning DD's hands I have one thing to say:

ZERO: The number of dropped passes by DD in 2008!

64.3 - The % of targeted passes Don caught in 2008.

69.0 - The % of targeted passes Jones caught in 2008.

And if you are want to argue that Jones caught more dumpoffs and Don caught tougher passes, each one averaged 13.7 YPR last year. Each pass on average gained the same number of yards between the two players.

There's a lot of variables that go into number like that, but I think there is something to be said about being an easier target for your QB.

The problem I see is that J. Jones hasn't put it all together yet, mostly due to injuries and concerns over ball-control/fumbles. Maybe he will this year. Also, I am not overly impressed with Nelson, he is fast, but I think DBs can see his speed coming and usually account for it. For example, JJ seems to be better at deceiving the DBs and getting open downfield.

ThAt is just some generalizations of what I remember, but I think they're fairly accurate.

[Waldo]

The 5 play theory strikes again.

(People's impressions of most players are based on nothing more really than about 5 plays. It is hard to recall more, almost every attribute that you give to the player from memory can be found in those 5 plays. Those 5 plays can change, new ones added and old ones swept away.)

Bigby gets a lot of stupid penalties because he kicked a football around week 11 of 2007. Never mind looking up how many penalties that Bigby actually has gotten, and what the trend is.

Jones has fumbling issues. He has lost 2 fumbles in has career, both were within 5 minutes of each other, about week 6 of his rookie year, he hasn't lost a fumble since. He is blamed for losing the game, yet a glance at the play by play shows it had virtually no impact on the game, GB got the ball back after the 2nd one with the score still 0-0.

Jones needs more plays like the bomb past Champ and the safety debilitating, helmet losing play against Cincy, to sweep away those fumbles, then he won't have fumbling problems anymore.

The way people recall non statistic based football data is really weird. Instead of remembering minor parts of many plays, people tend to recall fairly vivid details of only a few, and base their evaluations of players almost solely on these few plays.

[mraynrand]

, Jordy is a far superior blocker, both in pass pro (he did some pass pro in the backfield vs. the Bears) and run blocking.

I'll have to look at this. I'm not sure I can agree. Jordy, along with the tight end, botched the block on the end, that led to Rodgers being unable to step into his deep (under) throw to Jennings.

But I agree with your other points - going forward, I can see Driver giving up snaps and staying in that slot role on certain downs.

[Waldo]

I think the fact that he is used in the backfield to block is clearly indicative of how the coaches rank his blocking ability. No other WR in MM's tenure has seen any time blocking in the backfield.

Blocking ends and LB's is a whole different animal than CB's and S's.

Don has major holding problems. I believe that he was flagged for it 6 times last year, making him one of the most flagged players on the team, and he was flagged again for holding in PS.

[sharpe1027]

The 5 play theory strikes again.

(People's impressions of most players are based on nothing more really than about 5 plays. It is hard to recall more, almost every attribute that you give to the player from memory can be found in those 5 plays. Those 5 plays can change, new ones added and old ones swept away.)

Bigby gets a lot of stupid penalties because he kicked a football around week 11 of 2007. Never mind looking up how many penalties that Bigby actually has gotten, and what the trend is.

Jones has fumbling issues. He has lost 2 fumbles in has career, both were within 5 minutes of each other, about week 6 of his rookie year, he hasn't lost a fumble since. He is blamed for losing the game, yet a glance at the play by play shows it had virtually no impact on the game, GB got the ball back after the 2nd one with the score still 0-0.

Jones needs more plays like the bomb past Champ and the safety debilitating, helmet losing play against Cincy, to sweep away those fumbles, then he won't have fumbling problems anymore.

The way people recall non statistic based football data is really weird. Instead of remembering minor parts of many plays, people tend to recall fairly vivid details of only a few, and base their evaluations of players almost solely on these few plays.

Not so fast my friend!!! That's not what I meant at all. JJ was hardly seen for several games after those fumbles, a decision made by the coaches. Before that game he was seeing more and more time and looking better and better. So regardless of his actual issues with ball control, it did affect what we saw of him and our ability to judge him. Take a closer look at my post and you will note that the ball control is mentioned in the same context as his injuries (i.e., not being able to put it all together for a full year).

So please reconsider you condemnation of my post and give me the benefit of the doubt.

[Freak Out]

Absolutely. It won't cost a fortune to keep him around.

Ty has long been off the DD bandwagon. DD put up some great #s and a large amount of that was that he was Bert's security blanket.

DD is on record as to wanting to play till he is 40. Ty doesn't think he can do it and be effective...nor does Ty think it would be wise to invest any dollars to make him a packer till 40.

At some point we have to transition to jones/jordy..or whomever.

As for cost...ty thinks you'll be surprised at what he wants.

40! He wants to be the Lance Armstrong of the NFL.

[mraynrand]

I think the fact that he is used in the backfield to block is clearly indicative of how the coaches rank his blocking ability. No other WR in MM's tenure has seen any time blocking in the backfield.

That's an interesting point. You sure Ruvell wasn't back there?

Now I'm going to go back and look at blocking by receivers....

[Waldo]

Jones was out there.

In fact it was a major criticism of mine that season. About the same time the Drunk returned and Favre kept getting him involved despite his struggles getting open and catching it. Koren worked his way into the regular receiving lineup IMO based solely on #4's suggestions. He was not playing well, and other guys (like Jones) were often clearly superior places to go with the ball on a given play, but Brett kept trying to jam it in to Koren.

What really made me mad was the fact that Greg's leap from good young receiver to one of the league's elites happened somewhere between weeks 8-12 of 2007, he became virtually uncoverable at that point, it was really obvious when watching games. How #4 never figured this out I'll never know, he was too concerned with forcing the ball to the Drunk.

IMO Jones "hitting the wall" had a lot more to do with Koren and BF's obsession with him, than it did with any decline in ability.

[sharpe1027]

Jones was out there.

In fact it was a major criticism of mine that season. About the same time the Drunk returned and Favre kept getting him involved despite his struggles getting open and catching it. Koren worked his way into the regular receiving lineup IMO based solely on #4's suggestions. He was not playing well, and other guys (like Jones) were often clearly superior places to go with the ball on a given play, but Brett kept trying to jam it in to Koren.

What really made me mad was the fact that Greg's leap from good young receiver to one of the league's elites happened somewhere between weeks 8-12 of 2007, he became virtually uncoverable at that point, it was really obvious when watching games. How #4 never figured this out I'll never know, he was too concerned with forcing the ball to the Drunk.

IMO Jones "hitting the wall" had a lot more to do with Koren and BF's obsession with him, than it did with any decline in ability.

Even if he was out there, he didn't get the ball, making it difficult to evaluate him. Thus, injuries and xyz have not allowed him to put it all together.

You can hypothesize about why he didn't get the ball, but your anlaysis of Koren seems to be limited to your memory of about 5 plays that Favre tried to force the ball to him. A wise poster once suggested that we often remember select plays and wrongly base our opinions on that, weird as that might sound.