Packers Linebackers

[SnakeLH2006]

Kampy would fail as a DE in a 3-4. He's not big enough. He wasn't big enough last season before he trimmed down to play OLB. Snake, the OLB's in a 3-4 are the edge rushers. Kampy is playing the only position he could play in a 3-4. If he doesn't fit, if he can't do it, tag him and trade him in the offseason. But he can't play on our DL in a 3-4. He'd look worse than he is now.

I agree, Gun. Only offering some sympathy to the Kampy apologizers. I agree, this is what it is, Kampy is really just a guy at OLB. If he put his hand down, maybe he'd get some sacks (but doubt it cuz he's really slimmed down....just look at him...to play OLB). It's a joke as our scheme (3-4) is good, but it took our best pass-rusher (34 sacks the last 3 years) and made him a guy at best. What is that? At least let him put his hand down and pass-rush, as he gets no burst hands-up....thus, the point. Kampy has no value but average doing what he's doing. I was amazed at his pass-rush at 275-280 at DE in years past. At what (255 or so and slim) he's done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the first 4 games for a pass rush with his hands up at OLB, nor has Barnett made ONE PLAY.

It's give and take. Some guys look better (Matthews, Chillar) some look far average (Barnett, Kampy). It's a horse a piece. Everything looked great in preseason, but Barnett looks like he should be benched for a playmaker (Bishop) and Kampy looks lost in pass-coverage and offers virtually NO pass-rush like he did at DE vs. OLB where he is now.

I am with you on Barnett. His mind isn't where it needs to be, even if his knee is. But leading up to the Vikings game Kampy was the team leader in tackles, if I'm remembering correctly, which means he's done his job. His job isn't to rush the passer on every down - that's the whole point. The 3-4 is to cause confusion. You don't know if Kampy is coming from one side or Matthews/Chillar is coming from the other. You don't know if Hawk/Barnett/Bishop is gonna collapse the middle, or if Woodson is gonna rush from the corner. You just don't know, and that's the point. I hear what you're saying about Kampy being miscast, and it might end up in his being traded for someone who does fit the scheme. But you aren't gonna go away from the scheme you've been practicing for months because of one player. If Kampy is just a guy in the 3-4 then that's what he is. Trade him for someone who isn't. Or trade him for someone who can help elsewhere. But it's not Dom's fault that Kampy isn't the greatest OLB for a 3-4 team.

However, it might be Dom's fault that they don't blitz more than they do. That much has puzzled me. Kampy would get better pressure if, say, he AND Hawk ran an overload blitz on the poor RT that Kampy is lined up across. That's been my beef with this defense. The playcalling. TURN UP THE HEAT DOM!!!

Yep..TURN IT UP! Agreed. Did Dom really think they'd fool a guy (who's seen more snaps at QB in the HISTORY OF THE NFL aka Favre)....no?? I agree. Favre could be 50 and pass all day under a so-so 3-4 Down Lineman pass rush with his pretty deece OL. When does Favre (especially) but most QB's toss it up?...with heat/blitz packages. Unexcusable we didn't pass-rush more.

Why not (they did preseason and on Cutler) turn it up. Favre (like Cutler) gambles when the heat is on....so why not blitz a bunch of guys like Kampy? Totally agree. Kampy at his best is a blitzer. What do they expect out him at 28 years old dropping into coverage on 60% of the plays? It's a scheme thing, but Kampy is not being utilized. Barnett, like I suspected is average. Kampy could be so much better.

Bottom line. Blitz those mofo's. Don't we have supposedly the best 1-2 CB's in the league, so why not? No? Snake is still puzzled. Sometimes I think MM calls those shots and likes to play conservative and it bites us. Really makes me sad when we have all that LB talent and CB talent....BLITZ! Fritz Shurmur is turning in his grave.

[mmmdk]

The problem with Barnett is that he's playing...who's responsible for that? Rhetorical question really.

[pbmax]

Nutz, great thread.

Agree with KYP, Matthews should be starting every down now (not just nickel) and Poppinga should only go in if there is a shooting.

Disagree with Nutz on Raji, he was projected as Nose in the pros before the Packers even made the coaching change. Scouts can be wrong, but I am not sure we have seen enough to know his best spot in a D he hasn't played in the pros.

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

One scheme/coverage note. Mark Chmura noted on two plays (one by Woodson and one by Harris) that they passed along a receiver deep and outside to a single safety coverage. He called this coverage Cover (1 or 3*) Lightning. Both plays resulted in long gains along the sideline if I am thinking of the same plays he is.

He explained that the other safety has come up to fill another zone, run support or blitz and that this leaves a single safety deep in the middle. The cornerbacks no longer have just the short zones outside, but must go with the receiver deep if they stay outside. Chmura said both Harris and Woodson released their guys too early and should have turned and run with them.

*don't remember which

[mmmdk]

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

Great observation on Barnett.

But I believe Barnett twittered and bullied his way back into the lineup. Who's boss? It seems Barnett is and not McCarthy. Another nail in the coffin for McCarthy. Even if it's Dom conveying Barnett to McCarthy; it still falls on the head coach.

[wist43]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

[Sparkey]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

In defense of Capers, early in the game, it looked like guys were lost on some of the plays. I think it would be hard for Capers to call a lot of deception schemes if his own players have no clue what they are doing.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

Completely agree. It's almost always the case that it's 2 yrs after the injury before a player comes back after a knee injury like that. Tough to judge a guy too harshly coming back from a knee injury. Although that 7.5 second play was frustrating with his running around.

[denverYooper]

Nutz, great thread.

Agree with KYP, Matthews should be starting every down now (not just nickel) and Poppinga should only go in if there is a shooting.

Disagree with Nutz on Raji, he was projected as Nose in the pros before the Packers even made the coaching change. Scouts can be wrong, but I am not sure we have seen enough to know his best spot in a D he hasn't played in the pros.

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

One scheme/coverage note. Mark Chmura noted on two plays (one by Woodson and one by Harris) that they passed along a receiver deep and outside to a single safety coverage. He called this coverage Cover (1 or 3*) Lightning. Both plays resulted in long gains along the sideline if I am thinking of the same plays he is.

He explained that the other safety has come up to fill another zone, run support or blitz and that this leaves a single safety deep in the middle. The cornerbacks no longer have just the short zones outside, but must go with the receiver deep if they stay outside. Chmura said both Harris and Woodson released their guys too early and should have turned and run with them.

*don't remember which

Martin gets called out on a few big plays in
"After further review" this week. Apparently, he was playing Cover 3 on the 31 yarder to Berrian and was supposed to be in Cover 2 behind Harris.

I think he made Al Harris look bad on a few other plays where he wasn't in the right position.

[denverYooper]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

In defense of Capers, early in the game, it looked like guys were lost on some of the plays. I think it would be hard for Capers to call a lot of deception schemes if his own players have no clue what they are doing.

Totally agree. I think he did what he could.

[bobblehead]

Re: Packers Linebackers

Anyone who has dvr'd the game, you have to go re-watch the play where Favre had like 7.3 seconds to throw the ball. They show an angle from behind the Vikings line and if you watch Barnett, it is freakin hilarious.

He steps in, like a fake rush (but a terrible fake) then steps back a few steps, turns in a circle (lookin around like wth am I supposed to be)steps up then goes back again. Chiken with his head cut off type of play.

On that note, Barnett is not suited to play in a 3-4 defense. He is best asset is (or was) his speed and ability to run sideline to sideline and make plays. However, in a 3-4 the ilb's do not need to run side to side. They need to be agressive and meet plays head on and use their strength to attack. Yes, he lead the team in tackles vs Minny, but how many were 4 or more yards downfield ?

Barnett is totally miscast in his current role. In my opinion, the best LB group for the pack would be Chillar, Bishop, Hawk and Matthews.

Matthews shows flashes of what he will eventually be capable of doing, once he gets a few more games under his belt.

Hawk is now the lb that does the grunt work inside. So his tackle numbers will suffer, but he rarely is out of place.

Kampmann was a great DE in a 4-3, he currently a liability in Capers 3-4 (at least based on how he is being used at this point.) Chillar has shown he is a better blitzer, so far.)

Snake totally agrees. Barnett is horrible in this new 3-4. Bench his ass (fuck his contract) and bring up my man Bishop. Barnett in 4 games looks clueless. Matthews (a rook mind you) makes plays...Hawk is ok. Chillar is a beast. Kampy is SO FUCKING LOST. Bring up the Bishop. What do they have to lose?

How many more times does Chillar have to get beat to a bloody pulp in pass coverage before you agree he's not a beast? The guy isn't that great. Sure he makes plays, some for the Packers, some for the Packers opponent. The worst team in the NFL - using a backup QB mind you - made Chillar look like a pee-wee backup. I don't think he deserves all the credit he's getting.

I'd bring up Bishop in place of Barnett from time to time, that's worth a look. But as far as Kampy goes, who BTW is amongst the team leaders in tackles despite looking lost, who would you replace him with? Poppinga? Jeremy Thompson? We're kinda stuck there, for this year anyway. And we had better pray that Kampy doesn't get himself injured for any length of time.

I thought pass coverage was the only thing he was good at 4 weeks ago...no?? Look, he has broken down in coverage about as often as Barnett. They don't even want Hawk on the field in coverage anymore. Top it off he was lining up at safety most of the Rams game and being asked to make coverages that an LB doesn't normally make....in this game too a few times.

Maybe I'm watching a different game, but Chillar and Mathews are the only two linebackers I'm satisfied with to date. I won't call Chillar the best LB atm cuz that belongs to Mathews.

[pbmax]

Nutz, great thread.

Agree with KYP, Matthews should be starting every down now (not just nickel) and Poppinga should only go in if there is a shooting.

Disagree with Nutz on Raji, he was projected as Nose in the pros before the Packers even made the coaching change. Scouts can be wrong, but I am not sure we have seen enough to know his best spot in a D he hasn't played in the pros.

Not ready to give up on Barnett in this scheme, but he is not healthy yet. He had a play in Phoenix I think (his first preseason game back) that had him sliding down the line left shadowing the RB. When the back cut and hit the hole, Barnett could have planted and went at him, but he took one or two extra hop steps while turning back to the hole to get his feet set. It looked to me like he wanted nothing to do with planting on his repaired leg.

Its going to take until much deeper into the season before he is comfortable with that knee.

One scheme/coverage note. Mark Chmura noted on two plays (one by Woodson and one by Harris) that they passed along a receiver deep and outside to a single safety coverage. He called this coverage Cover (1 or 3*) Lightning. Both plays resulted in long gains along the sideline if I am thinking of the same plays he is.

He explained that the other safety has come up to fill another zone, run support or blitz and that this leaves a single safety deep in the middle. The cornerbacks no longer have just the short zones outside, but must go with the receiver deep if they stay outside. Chmura said both Harris and Woodson released their guys too early and should have turned and run with them.

*don't remember which

Martin gets called out on a few big plays in
"After further review" this week. Apparently, he was playing Cover 3 on the 31 yarder to Berrian and was supposed to be in Cover 2 behind Harris.

I think he made Al Harris look bad on a few other plays where he wasn't in the right position.

That makes sense, especially since it led to his benching. Chmura (if this was one of the plays he was speaking of) must have seen Cover 3, but if the Press Gazette is right (and McGinn makes a similar observation today as well) then Martin was in the wrong spot.

[bobblehead]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

Your looking at 4 games....I'm looking at 15 years+. I don't believe Dom...all on his own went conservative. I think MM works the gameplan with him, or worse interjects during the game. Historically Dom is aggressive, suddenly he is not. Vanilla Bob was boring to a fault...the common denominator seems to be MM. (the same guy who forgets to call a running play after the first quarter)

[pbmax]

Your looking at 4 games....I'm looking at 15 years+. I don't believe Dom...all on his own went conservative. I think MM works the gameplan with him, or worse interjects during the game. Historically Dom is aggressive, suddenly he is not. Vanilla Bob was boring to a fault...the common denominator seems to be MM. (the same guy who forgets to call a running play after the first quarter)

Bobble, you are on weak ground here. McCarthy and Sanders said several times its the DC's game plan.

McCarthy himself has said he doesn't even spend much time in meetings with his DC since he is working on the O's game plan and play calling list.

Capers would not have taken a job where he could not run his defense the way he wanted to run it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It's mostly Capers, I believe. I don't believe in the premise that we've been ultra-conservative either. Different game. Different gameplan. It seems to me we blitzed a lot against Chicago, and we blitzed early against Cincinnati. When Benson started running well, we tweaked the plan a bit. St. Louis has one guy that can beat you, Steven Jackson. That was the focus. Minnesota has the best RB on the planet, so you have to game plan him. They decided that blitzing could open things up against Peterson. Favre played a great game. The safety breakdowns didn't help, and I don't think they thought they'd go so little pressure rushing four. Choose your poison, I guess. If we blitz, and Peterson runs for 70 yards, then people would complain about that. I think you'll see more blitzing against Detroit (because they'll want to rattle the rookie) and Cleveland (because their running game is pretty anemic).

[wist43]

Yes, the players are miscast... and Kampman will be sprinting for the door as soon as FA opens up next year; but, the change needed to be made IMO.

You can do so much more with a 3-4 than you can with a 4-3, although the transition is going to be painful from time to time. As I've been saying since they announced they were changing schemes, we're going to have to expect growing pains.

With the exception of this years draft class, they drafted all of their current players to play in a 4-3 - and most of them sucked in that... it is unrealistic to think that average, to below average players best suited for a 4-3, could be plugged into a 3-4 and expect them to excel.

Beyond that, I do have concerns about Capers... good coach, but he has a tendency to go conservative. In his defense, what we're seeing in terms of his conservative game plans and play calling could be a function of the miscast personnel, but I haven't been overly impressed with his job performance thru the first 4 games. Capers is no Rex Ryan, that's for sure.

yea, lets compare the resume of Dom Capers vs. Rex Ryan and see who comes out on top. I still think MM is reigning in the real Dom.

One of the advantages of running a 3-4 is that you can give a multitude of different presnap looks and send a much greater variety of blitzes...

Capers has a tendency to get conservative, i.e. he'll simply lineup in a static 3-4, the way you draw up for kids in Pop Warner. Easy for the OL to block if they know where everyone is going to be... presnap movement, and variable fronts gives the defense the advantage of creating angles and causing confusion in the opponents blocking scheme. Static presnap alignment negates that.

Your looking at 4 games....I'm looking at 15 years+. I don't believe Dom...all on his own went conservative. I think MM works the gameplan with him, or worse interjects during the game. Historically Dom is aggressive, suddenly he is not. Vanilla Bob was boring to a fault...the common denominator seems to be MM. (the same guy who forgets to call a running play after the first quarter)

Not sure I'd put the blandness of the play calling on MM's doorstep... but it's certainly possible.

There is also the consideration that they have concerns on the back end, i.e. the revolving door at safety; but, to me, that would be all the more reason to go nuts up front in an effort to create more pressure.

Sending 4 out of a static alignment down after down certainly isn't the answer.