Rebuilding the OL, again

[pbmax]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

That secondary was ranked 5th.

There are a bunch of old threads 3irty1 covering the 2005 defense. We were ranked in the top 5 pass D's largely based on the fact that teams did not need to pass with the lead in the second half. We were very low in total pass atts faced, but very high in total run atts faced. The run defense that year was better than the pass D,m despite the yardage totals.

[KYPack]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

[red]

to me, i thought spitz looked good at center and sitton really looks like a keeper at RG. college is too up and down for me. i'd let him walk

clifton, even before his injury looked like he had lost it, he's become a liability at LT.

tauscher, who knows. he looked good in the two quarters he played before screwing up his knee again.

barbre sucks, lang is an unknown (might be a better option at Lt now)

wells is too small to be a good center, he's too easy to move

the rest can go

yes, we need a complete overhaul

and a new line coach wouldn't help

[3irty1]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

That secondary was ranked 5th.

There are a bunch of old threads 3irty1 covering the 2005 defense. We were ranked in the top 5 pass D's largely based on the fact that teams did not need to pass with the lead in the second half. We were very low in total pass atts faced, but very high in total run atts faced. The run defense that year was better than the pass D,m despite the yardage totals.

Their rank may be sugar coated but its not made of sugar. It was a pretty good pass defense. Ever since KGB deteriorated this team has needed an off-the-edge pass rusher.

[KYPack]

to me, i thought spitz looked good at center and sitton really looks like a keeper at RG. college is too up and down for me. i'd let him walk

clifton, even before his injury looked like he had lost it, he's become a liability at LT.

tauscher, who knows. he looked good in the two quarters he played before screwing up his knee again.

barbre sucks, lang is an unknown (might be a better option at Lt now)

wells is too small to be a good center, he's too easy to move

the rest can go

yes, we need a complete overhaul

and a new line coach wouldn't help

I'm pretty sure this team has me beyond being surprised, but...

Early in the week, JSO said they may work Lang in at LG because of all Colledge's problems. All week in practice, Lang has been working with the 1's at - Right Tackle!

What is it, is this kid the new Forrest Gregg or something?
Our line is so shot to shit, we have to move a young kid around to stabilize things?

If these moves straighten out this OL, OK

These look like desperation moves by a team headed right down the crapper.

I'm more bummed out at this team than the '05 bunch. We knew we had stiff bunch on the OLine that season, these guys were supposed to be coming into their own.

It looks bleaker and bleaker every week, fer crissakes.

[hoosier]

Early in the week, JSO said they may work Lang in at LG because of all Colledge's problems. All week in practice, Lang has been working with the 1's at - Right Tackle!

What is it, is this kid the new Forrest Gregg or something?
Our line is so shot to shit, we have to move a young kid around to stabilize things?

If these moves straighten out this OL, OK

These look like desperation moves by a team headed right down the crapper.

I'm more bummed out at this team than the '05 bunch. We knew we had stiff bunch on the OLine that season, these guys were supposed to be coming into their own.

It looks bleaker and bleaker every week, fer crissakes.

I sense a common theme here. Tony Moll was a Packer from 2006-08, was he not?

2005 was bleak because it was pre Tony Moll.

2009 is down the crapper because it is post Tony Moll.

[Patler]

I'm pretty sure this team has me beyond being surprised, but...

Early in the week, JSO said they may work Lang in at LG because of all Colledge's problems. All week in practice, Lang has been working with the 1's at - Right Tackle!

What is it, is this kid the new Forrest Gregg or something?
Our line is so shot to shit, we have to move a young kid around to stabilize things?

If these moves straighten out this OL, OK

These look like desperation moves by a team headed right down the crapper.

I'm more bummed out at this team than the '05 bunch. We knew we had stiff bunch on the OLine that season, these guys were supposed to be coming into their own.

It looks bleaker and bleaker every week, fer crissakes.

Neither Tauscher or Barbre practiced early in the week. Tauscher with the knee, Barbre was limited with a concussion that apparently happened right toward the end of the game.

[pbmax]

Their rank may be sugar coated but its not made of sugar. It was a pretty good pass defense. Ever since KGB deteriorated this team has needed an off-the-edge pass rusher.

Its hard to fathom by looking at the raw number totals, but that pass defense was bad. The run defense was surprisingly good compared to the raw yardage. Look at Waldo's numbers on the previous page. Overall the defense was a notch below mediocre, which was a step up from abysmal the year before.

If you wish to look back, I suggest looking at the yards per carry number and then look at the opposing QB ranking from that year. Fox Sports; stast page will let you look at Team Defense and see the opposing QB rating.

There are some good threads on this site covering that aspect of the defense from the 06 offseason as well.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

Are you challenging Retail's observations?

Ty is still waiting for RG to respond to the fact that he was BUSTED.

Moll inactive for all but 3 games.

[KYPack]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

Are you challenging Retail's observations?

Ty is still waiting for RG to respond to the fact that he was BUSTED.

Moll inactive for all but 3 games.

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

I read some crap on the net that Joe Flacco was the best QB in the NFL!?! With decent pressure, he is a pretty ordinary dude, IMHO.

He played Sunday like a guy late for work, trying to find his car keys. Very harried.

[MJZiggy]

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

You were there? Wait, the second game. Never mind.

[pbmax]

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

I read some crap on the net that Joe Flacco was the best QB in the NFL!?! With decent pressure, he is a pretty ordinary dude, IMHO.

He played Sunday like a guy late for work, trying to find his car keys. Very harried.

I think he was announced in the papers as a starter one week, but someone must have gotten healthy in a hurry. NFL.com has him playing in 2 games but no starts. In a blow to my third favorite website, profootballreference.com doesn't even have him on the roster. I am guessing other than games played, he has no statistical trace. That might not be all bad for a lineman.

[3irty1]

[quote="pbmax"]

Their rank may be sugar coated but its not made of sugar. It was a pretty good pass defense. Ever since KGB deteriorated this team has needed an off-the-edge pass rusher.

Its hard to fathom by looking at the raw number totals, but that pass defense was bad. The run defense was surprisingly good compared to the raw yardage. Look at Waldo's numbers on the previous page. Overall the defense was a notch below mediocre, which was a step up from abysmal the year before.

If you wish to look back, I suggest looking at the yards per carry number and then look at the opposing QB ranking from that year. Fox Sports; stast page will let you look at Team Defense and see the opposing QB rating.

There are some good threads on this site covering that aspect of the defense from the 06 offseason as well.[/quote

On I remember. This was the season when we lost by 45 to Kyle Boller. I take it back you guys are right. The secondary sucked. Al Harris ruled though.

Looking back at the box scores there was some pretty low scoring games though.

[retailguy]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

Are you challenging Retail's observations?

Ty is still waiting for RG to respond to the fact that he was BUSTED.

Moll inactive for all but 3 games.

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

I read some crap on the net that Joe Flacco was the best QB in the NFL!?! With decent pressure, he is a pretty ordinary dude, IMHO.

He played Sunday like a guy late for work, trying to find his car keys. Very harried.

Well, I watched the Baltimore/Cincy game, and he played and played relatively well. He's also playing some special teams stuff. If you don't focus on taking my quote out of context, as some here do, all too often, you'd see that acknowledged that he won't ever be special. However, compared to Allen Barbre, Moll looks like Willie Anderson.

Ty - I didn't see your smart alec reply, but I probably wouldn't have responded to it anyhow.

Here's what the Ravens website had to say about his play:

2009 (with Baltimore): Started at RT and helped protect QB Joe Flacco, allowing him to complete 18 passes for 195 yards, a 10.8 avg. against the Bengals.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Players/Active/Tony_Moll.aspx

(under pro career)

I'll take Ravens.com opinions over yours, Ty. KY, I'd never bust your ass. I respect your opinions.

[pbmax]

Well, something strange has happened to Tony Moll this season. No one seems to have a clear idea what he is up to.

The NFL Gamebook for Nov. 8, Balt @ Cincy has Moll inactive.

Gamebook from Oct. 11, Cincy @ Balt has Moll active and substituting at Guard. Did not start though.