Bills grab Brohm off the practice squad

[retailguy]

McCarty is a great QB coach.

But the input of a coach and help from a teammate are two vastly different things.

McCarthy can't suit up and go in and play, for instance.

We need one of them guys.

Welcome to the dark side KY.

Edit - Ah screw it. It isn't worth it.

[Waldo]

Waldo, here are some snippets.

Bill Cowher

In Cowher’s 15 seasons, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned ten postseason playoff berths, played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles.

Sure, they did the things you said, but they also had a ton of talent throughout the Cowher years and have had continued success under Tomlin. I don't think you can look at our time since TT has been here and say it's comparable or there is any indication we'll get to that level.



Eagles:

The Eagles have been to 5 conference championships in 9 years and the divisional round of the playoffs or better 6 times. All signs do not point to replicating this success.


What say you?

I understand the history quite well.

I'm not nearly as down on our roster as you are you know. We can hang with and beat any team in the NFL.

We dump our crappy DC, and add a couple of rookies, and now our defense is a top 5 unit? Which was the problem, talent or coaching? Sanders NEVER had these guys playing this good, and they are still learning the scheme.

A team with a legit QB is a legit threat to win any game it plays.

We have the combination that leads to a lot of wins, Explosive passing, useable running game, legit QB, shutdown defense.

[Smidgeon]

Most of our players are too young to even approach the question.

Yeah. That's what I was thinking; I knew the question was premature. But I thought I'd ask your opinion anyway.

[pbmax]

Did we not have early success? I seem to recall a pass in overtime that still make me wince.

Are we out of the playoffs this year? By my reckoning we're tied for a WC spot with 7 weeks to go. Certainly in the mix.

Polian already had 2 young HOF players on the roster when he got there. The cupboard looked bare at the time, but the existing roster quickly blossomed.

I believe that Pit was much the same way.

For Philly, just like Indy, the most important player, the QB, came early.

Brett was a fairly major early roster building impediment. While Mn shed all their contracts and pushed money forward, we had some leftover giants, especially Brett, that ensured a much slower building process. I wasn't until this season that Mn passed GB in the 3 big money areas, OL, DL, and QB. Mn's team of today was paid for during their lean years a couple years ago. They were lean for us also, but our team also cost 20-30M more per year than Mn's, the cumulative effect of a few years of all that pushing forward and frontloading vs our pay as you go is the reason that Mn has the concentration of talent they have today

Thompson so far is 1 for 4 playoff berth wise.
Reid was 3 for 4 (4 for 5).
Cowher 4 for 4 (5 for 5).
Polian 2 for 4 (3 for 5).
Belichick 2 for 4 (3 of 5).
Record wise it isn't that close.

Now as you point out, there are differences. Cowher's team wasn't a bare cupboard. They had Lloyd, Nickerson, Tunch Ilkin, Dermotti Dawson, Yancey Thigpen, Jeff Graham, Carnell Lake and Rod Woodson (and Darren Perry!). They had their QB, Neil O'Donnell though he was not a difference maker unless your name is Larry Brown. A good deal of young talent. There is a reason Cowher went four for four.

Colts before Polian had Faulk, Harrison, Ken Dilger, Marcus Pollard. Also Tony Mandarich! and Ellis Johnson, the only D player I recognize as more than average. Polian hit the jackpot with the first pick and got Manning, which made all those pieces on offense look even better.

Eagles with Reid started by drafting McNabb who started 6 games, Doug Pederson got the other nine. They had Tra Thomas and Jermane Mayberry on the line and Duce Staley in the backfield. Hollis Thomas on defense along with Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Brian Dawkins and William Thomas at LB. Mamula had 8.5 sacks.

Belichick kept Bledsoe, Faulk, Glenn, Troy Brown, Bruce Armstrong (who was near the end) and the not quite venerable Joe Andruzzi. He had McGinest, Ted Johnson and Bruschi on defense along with Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy (and Tebuckey Jones). He drafted a Hall of Famer in the 6th round the next year.

Thompson may have pulled off the toughest stunt of them all by drafting one very good QB WHILE Having a Hall of Famer around. This doesn't happen often. He also drafts Nick Collins. I should mention that his cap situation is tough, but I don't want to dwell on it since I cannot comment in an informed manner on the other teams. But the cap does cost him 2 of his 4 best O lineman though Rivera was not long for his pro career at this point. Cost cutting put Sharper on the waiver wire. That left him with Favre, Green, Driver, Henderson, Clifton, Tauscher and Flanagan on offense. On defense he has Kampman, Jackson and Jenkins along with Barnett and Al Harris (plus Grabby Smurf!).

Thompson's team mirrors Belichick and Reid most closely in that there is talent there but not a murderer's row. All are thin at crucial positions. Belichick completely remakes his roster with the great bargain basement FA signing in 2001 offseason and some guy named Brady. Thompson signs 3 FAs, picks a new coach and has to rebuild the offensive line prior to his second season. Reid already has a defense and uses McNabb, Runyan, and new receivers to perk up the offense. Corey Simon helps on D.

None of these teams are flawless. NE and Eagles are not good rushing teams. The Packers have a major issue at O line though Favre, Green and the tackles perhaps mask this. Even with Woodson, the Packer defense is plagued by communication issues last seen under Slowik and Kurt Schottenheimer.

Given how Thompson redid his cap in one season and how well he resisted serious pressure from his HOF QB to deviate from his plan, I am not sure how much Favre hindered the development or the accumulation of talent. Other than possibly Corey Williams, few have been lost that were missed in a meaningful way and Thompson did not spend anymore money once Favre's contract was off the books.

There is no good reason the tackle position is where it is and the O line in general is a continuing problem. Lang might solve one spot, but that leaves 2 positions unsettled. I think we are a year behind with this group. I am not troubled elsewhere. After this exercise, I am again leaning to hiring Larry Beightol as a "consultant".

[get louder at lambeau]

Did we not have early success? I seem to recall a pass in overtime that still make me wince.

Are we out of the playoffs this year? By my reckoning we're tied for a WC spot with 7 weeks to go. Certainly in the mix.

Polian already had 2 young HOF players on the roster when he got there. The cupboard looked bare at the time, but the existing roster quickly blossomed.

I believe that Pit was much the same way.

For Philly, just like Indy, the most important player, the QB, came early.

Brett was a fairly major early roster building impediment. While Mn shed all their contracts and pushed money forward, we had some leftover giants, especially Brett, that ensured a much slower building process. I wasn't until this season that Mn passed GB in the 3 big money areas, OL, DL, and QB. Mn's team of today was paid for during their lean years a couple years ago. They were lean for us also, but our team also cost 20-30M more per year than Mn's, the cumulative effect of a few years of all that pushing forward and frontloading vs our pay as you go is the reason that Mn has the concentration of talent they have today

Thompson so far is 1 for 4 playoff berth wise.
Reid was 3 for 4 (4 for 5).
Cowher 4 for 4 (5 for 5).
Polian 2 for 4 (3 for 5).
Belichick 2 for 4 (3 of 5).
Record wise it isn't that close.

Now as you point out, there are differences. Cowher's team wasn't a bare cupboard. They had Lloyd, Nickerson, Tunch Ilkin, Dermotti Dawson, Yancey Thigpen, Jeff Graham, Carnell Lake and Rod Woodson (and Darren Perry!). They had their QB, Neil O'Donnell though he was not a difference maker unless your name is Larry Brown. A good deal of young talent. There is a reason Cowher went four for four.

Colts before Polian had Faulk, Harrison, Ken Dilger, Marcus Pollard. Also Tony Mandarich! and Ellis Johnson, the only D player I recognize as more than average. Polian hit the jackpot with the first pick and got Manning, which made all those pieces on offense look even better.

Eagles with Reid started by drafting McNabb who started 6 games, Doug Pederson got the other nine. They had Tra Thomas and Jermane Mayberry on the line and Duce Staley in the backfield. Hollis Thomas on defense along with Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Brian Dawkins and William Thomas at LB. Mamula had 8.5 sacks.

Belichick kept Bledsoe, Faulk, Glenn, Troy Brown, Bruce Armstrong (who was near the end) and the not quite venerable Joe Andruzzi. He had McGinest, Ted Johnson and Bruschi on defense along with Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy (and Tebuckey Jones). He drafted a Hall of Famer in the 6th round the next year.

Thompson may have pulled off the toughest stunt of them all by drafting one very good QB WHILE Having a Hall of Famer around. This doesn't happen often. He also drafts Nick Collins. I should mention that his cap situation is tough, but I don't want to dwell on it since I cannot comment in an informed manner on the other teams. But the cap does cost him 2 of his 4 best O lineman though Rivera was not long for his pro career at this point. Cost cutting put Sharper on the waiver wire. That left him with Favre, Green, Driver, Henderson, Clifton, Tauscher and Flanagan on offense. On defense he has Kampman, Jackson and Jenkins along with Barnett and Al Harris (plus Grabby Smurf!).

Thompson's team mirrors Belichick and Reid most closely in that there is talent there but not a murderer's row. All are thin at crucial positions. Belichick completely remakes his roster with the great bargain basement FA signing in 2001 offseason and some guy named Brady. Thompson signs 3 FAs, picks a new coach and has to rebuild the offensive line prior to his second season. Reid already has a defense and uses McNabb, Runyan, and new receivers to perk up the offense. Corey Simon helps on D.

None of these teams are flawless. NE and Eagles are not good rushing teams. The Packers have a major issue at O line though Favre, Green and the tackles perhaps mask this. Even with Woodson, the Packer defense is plagued by communication issues last seen under Slowik and Kurt Schottenheimer.

Given how Thompson redid his cap in one season and how well he resisted serious pressure from his HOF QB to deviate from his plan, I am not sure how much Favre hindered the development or the accumulation of talent. Other than possibly Corey Williams, few have been lost that were missed in a meaningful way and Thompson did not spend anymore money once Favre's contract was off the books.

There is no good reason the tackle position is where it is and the O line in general is a continuing problem. Lang might solve one spot, but that leaves 2 positions unsettled. I think we are a year behind with this group. I am not troubled elsewhere. After this exercise, I am again leaning to hiring Larry Beightol as a "consultant".

Wow pb. Great stuff.

[KYPack]

That's some vicious work, PB.

My big concern is the OLine. The Kids theory is a good basis to begin from. but there are several ways to add talent and TT is ignoring one of 'em.

I'll either post my thoughts in this thread or start one detailing another team that has went far beyond ours in Oline talent and done it far differently.

Once again, PB that's some nice stuff

[mraynrand]

This idea just occurred to me the other day and I posted it in another thread. It seems to me that a really bold offseason move would have been to trade Kampman for some Oline talent and/or an experienced 3-4 OLB or maybe some picks. But given Kamp is a bit of a fish out of water, you'd think they coulda got something for him from a team that needed a 4-3 end. It would have been crazy/bold, and would have required a lot of confidence in your new scheme, but why not?

[Fritz]

It also would have required knowing for sure that your o-line talent was going to suck. At the time, I believe that TT and MM felt that Barbre was going to come into his own, Spitz and Colledge were finally "there", Sitton soon would be, and Clifton, with a developing young guy (Meredith) behind him (not as backup but as future) would be fine.

The calculus seems to have beeen wrong. Colledge had gone backward, it seems, Spitz is hurt, Barbe is hurting the team, and Clifton - after supposedly being healthier than he has been in a long time - has been on and off the field.

Add that to the idea that the staff and many others felt not only could Kampman make the switch, the Packers had no playmaker to put there, and it would've been more than bold to trade him at that time.

[Waldo]

Given how Thompson redid his cap in one season and how well he resisted serious pressure from his HOF QB to deviate from his plan, I am not sure how much Favre hindered the development or the accumulation of talent. Other than possibly Corey Williams, few have been lost that were missed in a meaningful way and Thompson did not spend anymore money once Favre's contract was off the books.

Offseasons are just a wee bit different when you've got 35M in cap space that you pushed forward that didn't need to be spent on your pouty QB that threw ints when it mattered.

35M gets you Jared Allen @ 3M/yr for 5 years.

That kind of cap space goes a LONG way. We had to pay off Favre's ridiculous contract, KGB's ridiculous contract, Clifton's ridiculous contract, etc..., over the 3 year span 2005 to 2007, those 3 players cost upwards of 80M in cap space. Fill those spots with 3 first round picks, Rodgers, and two others over a 3 year span, and you've got 25M in cap expenses, at most, leaving 50-60M to use on the FA market and to frontload any extensions, pushing the money forward.

One of the tenets of rebuilding is to shed the big ones. Veterans are not a problem, as long as they are not expensive. Expensive veterans are unacceptable. Ted was really left with what was a 2-3 year period just to shed the contracts. And Favre complicated it all, he'd bitch to the media at any moment about not trying to win. And of course his status made him more important than the administration trying to rebuild the team, hell braindead "fans" would burn down Lambeau if Lord Favre thought it would help win.

This is exactly the model Mn used. They dumped their QB. They dumped their expensive WR. Anybody overly expensive, buh bye. They kept a few vets around, cheepies like the C, all extra moneies were pushed forward, all new contracts were heavily frontloaded. They bought every good FA they could get their hands on, because, they could afford it. They did the shed period correctly. Favre and his tears of Moss wouldn't allow it. The rebuilding period that Mn went through to reach their current stage could never have happened with old man. He'd complain way too much. For a while they were a team that analyzed by pay as you go was operating 30-40M+ under the cap, cooking the books to look like they were spending enough, really they used every trick in the book to push that cap space into the future, so to the cap they were spending a lot more than they actually were. Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

[pbmax]

Jason Wilde was on Milwaukee radio today making the trade Kampman case and his theory is that his value is no worse than last offseason. AK may still be a man out of position on this team and that is no different than March or August prior to this season. He also felt that is was not within Kampman's personality to demand a trade or act publicly in a way to force one. No news on whether it was considered by the team.

Also one point that goes in Waldo's favor. Thompson's QB pick, which seems to be almost as charmed as Reid, Polian and Belichick's QB picks did have to sit, which probably helped Rodgers in the long run but did prolong the learning curve. However, perhaps more importantly, Thompson did not have his choice at Head Coach for his first year. That might be part of the line equation here. Sherman would have wanted power guys and at least a one vet to replace essentially two Pro Bowl guards. That might explain Adrian Klemm instead of an earlier draft pick.

And its probably no coincidence that all these teams acquired very good young QBs in short order. In fact, Pittsburgh makes the best case for the importance of the position, as they were knocking on the door without getting a SB win until Roethlisberger came along. The Neil O'Donnell's of the world can only do so much. And no, I can't explain Jeff Hostetler or Mark Rypien either.

[pbmax]

Given how Thompson redid his cap in one season and how well he resisted serious pressure from his HOF QB to deviate from his plan, I am not sure how much Favre hindered the development or the accumulation of talent. Other than possibly Corey Williams, few have been lost that were missed in a meaningful way and Thompson did not spend anymore money once Favre's contract was off the books.

Offseasons are just a wee bit different when you've got 35M in cap space that you pushed forward that didn't need to be spent on your pouty QB that threw ints when it mattered.

35M gets you Jared Allen @ 3M/yr for 5 years.

That kind of cap space goes a LONG way. We had to pay off Favre's ridiculous contract, KGB's ridiculous contract, Clifton's ridiculous contract, etc..., over the 3 year span 2005 to 2007, those 3 players cost upwards of 80M in cap space.

Sure. Minnesota cleaned house years earlier, when it was clear Moss and Culpepper weren't going to get it done. But neither was producing according to their contract. KGB didn't either, but Favre and Clifton were. Do you have the cap numbers for Favre, Clifton and KGB for 05-07? I don't see $27 million per year.

Also, if Thompson had wanted them gone, there was no cap reason any of the three couldn't have been released. Each had a base salary that would have cleared the cap acceleration after cutting them. So the contracts were no impediment.

Thompson did sign FAs in 2006 and front loaded them. Subsequently, he could have done a blockbuster in any year. He also never asked KGB to take a paycut even after he lost his starting and full-time gig. If we had a replacement for LT or were planning on doing FA for one, Clifton could have been released. I am not seeing an impediment except for the Face of the Franchise. Even he would have been mollified if Clifton was being replaced with someone younger and better.

[mngolf19]

Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

Vikes are not over the cap. I've seen numbers of approx $15-18M avail for next year(assuming a similar cap). Also, they are still pushing money forward, they did still last year and are planning to this year. Expect to hear extensions for a Henderson or Leber in late Dec.

[Bretsky]

another blown high draft pick

2005: Rodgers (1), Collins (2), Murphy (2)
2006: Hawk (1), Colledge (2), Jennings (2)
2007: Harrell (1), Jackson (2)
2008: Nelson (2), Brohm (2), Lee (2)
2009: Raji (1), Matthews (1)

So far we know that Brohm was a bust. Murphy and almost certainly Harrell didn't work out because of injuries. Lee seems to be a good bet to bust or to be unable to stay healthy, or both. Rodgers and Jennings are stars and maybe even more. Matthews seems to be headed in that direction too. Collins and Hawk are at least solid starters, potentially more.

I think TT's record on high draft picks is better than Wolf's. Only two busts in five drafts (I am not including Harrell) is a pretty good average.

We drafted an Harrell knowing he had injury concerns. I'd undoubtedly considerer him a bust. Lee maybe and Brosh deserve the spots too. Nelson was drafted ahead of better WR's. Jackson IMO too high.

With all that said I'd agree so far TT's record is decent and better than Wolf's on high picks. He's a good drafter.....not good enough to ingore free agency the last few years though

[Bretsky]

another blown high draft pick

2005: Rodgers (1), Collins (2), Murphy (2)
2006: Hawk (1), Colledge (2), Jennings (2)
2007: Harrell (1), Jackson (2)
2008: Nelson (2), Brohm (2), Lee (2)
2009: Raji (1), Matthews (1)

So far we know that Brohm was a bust. Murphy and almost certainly Harrell didn't work out because of injuries. Lee seems to be a good bet to bust or to be unable to stay healthy, or both. Rodgers and Jennings are stars and maybe even more. Matthews seems to be headed in that direction too. Collins and Hawk are at least solid starters, potentially more.

I think TT's record on high draft picks is better than Wolf's. Only two busts in five drafts (I am not including Harrell) is a pretty good average.

BJack and Colledge would have to be listed on the "shaky" side of any evaluation. I'd say we draft about as well as most other teams, but...

We rarely sign marquee free agents. We also don't go after many street free agents. Out whole building philosophy is thru the draft. With that in mind, we need to hit on a few more players and starters from our drafting. We also cut a 3rd rounder who went from starter to the streets in one week (Rouse).

If our philosophy is build thru the draft, we need to draft better.

[pbmax]

Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

Vikes are not over the cap. I've seen numbers of approx $15-18M avail for next year(assuming a similar cap). Also, they are still pushing money forward, they did still last year and are planning to this year. Expect to hear extensions for a Henderson or Leber in late Dec.

Waldo means that a substantial portion of the cap money available to the Vikings to spend this year came from previous years pushing forward unspent cap money. He is not saying the Vikings are over the cap in the strict CBA sense.

So when the Vikings or Packers sign the punter to a $4 million dollar bonus that will payout if he will participates in 20% of the offensive snaps, it counts against the cap as a Likely To Be Earned Incentive THIS YEAR. When the punter invariably does not participate in 20% of the offensive snaps, that $4 million dollar cap charge gets refunded into NEXT year's cap. This forwarded money, accumulated over several years, is what Waldo believes made the Jared Allen signing possible. The Eagles and Vikings were the earliest adopters of this tactic as a regular maneuver.