Aaron Rodgers now..

[RashanGary]

My theory is simple. Really bad O-line play makes a D-line look like they are rushing hard.

And if this is the case, with veterans like we have on our line all sucking, there is no way it should get better for the rest of the year. Other than Barbre, they sucked then and they shoudl still suck now. Let's not forget, Tauser has given up 2 or 3 of the sacks Rodgers has taken in the last 3 games, Rodgers has only taken a 7 or 8 sacks and Tausher hasn't even played the whole games.

[RashanGary]

Obviously not everyone has to agree, but I think by seasons end and into the offseason, you'll get more and more quotes out of 1265 about them not sticking to what they're good at and learning from that mistake.

[pbmax]

Obviously not everyone has to agree, but I think by seasons end and into the offseason, you'll get more and more quotes out of 1265 about them not sticking to what they're good at and learning from that mistake.

I think its quite likely you will get quotes like that. And then two new starters next year on the O Line. Lang somewhere (LG, RT) and another tackle, possibly two.

[pbmax]

My theory is simple. Really bad O-line play makes a D-line look like they are rushing hard.

And if this is the case, with veterans like we have on our line all sucking, there is no way it should get better for the rest of the year.

No, not this simple. They are being asked to pass block for smaller stretches of time. That is different than being above average pass blockers.

[get louder at lambeau]

This article is a few years old, but here's an analysis by Football Outsiders saying that sacks have more to do with who the QB is than the OL he's playing behind-

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2003/fun-sacks-part-ii

[Waldo]

The Air Coryell was the original WCO, including the name. When Walsh developed his offense, he was basically copying the principles of the Air Coryell, but he had a QB ill suited to the deep timing throws, instead he went with shorter timing throws. As he ran it, he found as a playcaller that he could call these passes in run situations. When he switched teams and implemented it in SF, the Run-Pass ratio shift caused him to seek out a pass blockers for his line, their natural athleticism lent themselves to screen plays, which he added, along with a basic zone running scheme.

In short, the WCO is the Air Coryell and the Walsh offense, really the trait that defines a WCO is the timing pass, whether a quick timing pass, or a slow timing pass.

In the most kind was possible, I am calling bullshit on this.

Walsh got his start in pro coaching with the Raiders in 1966, and Al Davis was not running a Air Coryell offense. He was running a Sid Gillman offense. Walsh coached the running backs and was there one year.

Then he moved to the Paul Brown offense with the Bengals for seven years. Ken Anderson (even after Walsh left) and the Bengals ran a more similar offense to the Walsh Offense than anything Gillman or Coryell ran at the time.

Coryell started as a pro coach in 1973, but as Coach of San Diego St. prior to that, would take his entire staff (and I have read, his entire team) to the Chargers practices to watch the offense at work.

There is more Brown in Walsh's offense than there is Gillman. Though later iterations of the Walsh Offense are far more vertical than he was. The naming part of it is legitimate. Gillman had possibly an even more far reaching influence in the pro passing game (Davis, Coryell, Norv Turner, Ernie Zampese, Chuck Noll, Cuck Knox, Dick Vermeil, George Allen, Joe Gibbs, Mike Martz). Gillman should be credited with the first West Coast Offense. Walsh's should have been given a different moniker.

Walsh learned from Gillman when Gillman hired him with the Oakland Raiders. Walsh gives credit to Gillman as being the biggest influence in his early career. Gillman was just one of the numerous pro coaches whom Walsh studied from. Walsh also credits individuals such as Blanton Collier, Al Davis, Don Coryell and Clark Shaughnessy, the legendary Stanford coach and Chicago Bear assistant to George Halas who brought the T formation into college and professional football.

The time Walsh spent with Cincinnati Bengals seemingly gave Walsh a chance to develop his own coaching philosophy and to put them into practical application. At the time, Cincinnati was an expansion team that had Virgil Carter as its quarterback. Virgil Carter was a quarterback who had a great collegiate career at Brigham Young. Virgil Carter was only six feet tall and without a throwing arm, but he was a good runner. Back in those days from film I have seen, the Bengal’s weren't strong enough on the offensive line to be able to run the ball well, Walsh decided that the best chance to win football games was to somehow control the ball. As a result, Walsh devised a ball-control passing game

http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory2.html

What did he implement? Timing stuff very similar to what Gillman and Coryell were doing, but using much shorter passes, because of his weak armed QB.

When he got to SF and had personnel control, he focused on athleticism for his OL and other parts of it grew from there.

Contrary to popular belief, Bill Walsh’s offensive genius did not begin in San Francisco. Despite the fact that Paul Brown was the offensive coordinator, he tasked his young wide receivers coach, Bill Walsh, with designing the team’s offense. Walsh had just finished his time with Al Davis’ coaching regime in Oakland (yes, 49er fans, our savior did work for the Dark Lord himself) and was well versed in the long-ball approach preferred by Davis. So naturally Walsh took the challenge and developed an offense that made St. Louis’ “Greatest Show on Turf” look like midgets attempting to high jump.

In 1969, with quarterback Greg Cook at the helm, Walsh’s offense was almost unstoppable. Three tight ends on the team averaged over 20 yards per reception. Cook averaged 17.5 yards per completion. How does that compare to current quarterbacks? Peyton Manning, in his record breaking 2004 campaign where he churned out touchdowns like P.Diddy does mediocre bands, only averaged 13.5 yards per completion.

With wins over the eventual world champion Kansas City Chiefs and the playoff-bound Oakland Raiders it looked like the Bengals were on the right path with Cook at the helm of Walsh’s downfield attack.

When Cook, the consummate down field passer with a rocket arm, suffered a career-ending shoulder injury before the 1970 season Walsh had to adjust to a new quarterback with a different skill set. Virgil Carter, a smart, agile, quick, accurate passer with a mediocre arm from Brigham Young, took the helm for the Bengals in 1970. Walsh’s offensive adjustments - shorter passes, timing routes, and an emphasis on the quarterback’s mobility - led to the birth of the offensive revolution that eventually took the 49ers to 5 Super Bowl championships.

So what happened to that long ball approach that was tearing through defenses? What happened to Walsh’s original offense in Cincinnati? Oh, It’s still around. It is the real West Coast Offense. It is the Air Coryell offense that Norv Turner is bringing to San Francisco.

http://www.49erswebzone.com/content/commentary/view.php?id=482

[bobblehead]

Two different problems. Both can be alleviated by altering the game plan, but both still need to be corrected. Rodgers has proven adaptable to throwing to checkdowns. The line has not proven is can pass block well with regularity.

I recall Aaron being unaffectionately dubbed "the checkdown king" prior to him taking over at QB. Enough so that many questioned his ability to drive the S's deep in alignment, so that the short stuff and run stays open.

A QB that checks down too much and throws short too much, is a QB about to throw a lot of pick 6's and have no running game.

No doubt about it. He is more of a QB than advertised and that is saying something for a QB with top half of the first round draft grades.

The checkdown king stuff was from his early pre-season games, mop up games and very early in his first starting season as I am sure you know. As 2008 went along, it was clear he was more than that.

In fact, I suspect that McCarthy's plans for this year were based very much on his ability and willingness to go deep with accuracy. Seeing it all shot to hell on protection had to give him pause. I think the building collapsed in two stages. Rodgers slowly lost his poise in the pocket and his internal clock was damaged by the very early pressure he was getting in the first few games. Whatever corrections or improvements the line was able to make were lost when he started to hold onto the ball unwisely.

My guess is that there were serious attempts to correct both in the normal manner, but after Tampa it became clear the season was at risk and there was no time to adjust in the normal manner. That's when the season game plan was chucked and M3 went more conservative. Not completely conservative, but with a thought to establishing protection for his QB and his line. Tauscher and Lang helped as well.

Speaking of Lang, has anyone counted the number of quality starts by T2's 2009 draft class?

Don't feel like pulling out clappy hands, but great post PB. I think if stubby has his way we will look like the old raiders next year....POUND THE ROCK, POUND THE ROCK, throw 70 yards downfield. I haven't seen a QB with ARods deep touch since Jeff Blake (yea, I really went there). I watched the queens the other day, and don't get me wrong, BF is MVP this year so far, but every time he went deep it was off mark. Just not his forte, much like ARod lacks the mentality to throw tight slants, but BF is godly at it.

I agree with all you said though, MM's plans got shot in the ass and it seems he has adjusted well, lets hope it keeps up next monday. I was calling for his head earlier for being stubborn about it, but hey, he might just have righted the ship, and he obviously didn't lose control of his team. Maybe he hangs in there long enough to piss off his detractors yet.

[Rastak]

Bobble, most times Favre throws it deep he put it away from the safety and where his guy can make a play. To me that's exactly what you want.

[bobblehead]

So you want to go back to split backs?

No, just the Non-Verticle WCO.

Personally, I'm okay with the Verticle WCO. AR is one of the most accurate long ball passers in the league, if not the best. His accuracy along the sidelines is ridiculous good. He certainly throws the ball well for having so few long INTs. And that's why I'm okay with it. It's because it's a talent. Why not capitalize on it?

Air Coryell? Like what Martz runs?

I could be wrong but I thought the whole Martz philosophy was to throw the ball BEFORE a reciever makes his breaks so a DBack never has a chance to defend it. The long catches were more a result of guys breaking off the defense and being gone before anyone knew what happened.

[Waldo]

Bobble, most times Favre throws it deep he put it away from the safety and where his guy can make a play. To me that's exactly what you want.

And most of the time his guys have to adjust to it because it isn't very accurate.

At least McCarthy rejuvenated that part of his game.

His deep ball '05 to '06 was an absolute joke, he couldn't hid the broadside of a barn more than 20 yards down the sideline. Even in '07, when he did make big deep throws to the edge, they weren't very accurate. I'm pretty sure that he threw more int's than completions 20+ outside the #'s in '07.

Aaron's WR's put out their arms while running and it just drops right in there.

[Rastak]

Bobble, most times Favre throws it deep he put it away from the safety and where his guy can make a play. To me that's exactly what you want.

And most of the time his guys have to adjust to it because it isn't very accurate.

At least McCarthy rejuvenated that part of his game.

His deep ball '05 to '06 was an absolute joke, he couldn't hid the broadside of a barn more than 20 yards down the sideline. Even in '07, when he did make big deep throws to the edge, they weren't very accurate. I'm pretty sure that he threw more int's than completions 20+ outside the #'s in '07.

Aaron's WR's put out their arms while running and it just drops right in there.

Well, I hope he keeps doing exactly what he's doing. You can have style points. Keep it away from the safety over the top and continue to rack up the big gains.

[Waldo]

So you want to go back to split backs?

No, just the Non-Verticle WCO.

Personally, I'm okay with the Verticle WCO. AR is one of the most accurate long ball passers in the league, if not the best. His accuracy along the sidelines is ridiculous good. He certainly throws the ball well for having so few long INTs. And that's why I'm okay with it. It's because it's a talent. Why not capitalize on it?

Air Coryell? Like what Martz runs?

I could be wrong but I thought the whole Martz philosophy was to throw the ball BEFORE a reciever makes his breaks so a DBack never has a chance to defend it. The long catches were more a result of guys breaking off the defense and being gone before anyone knew what happened.

And Martz got it from Coryell, who learned it from Gillman.

Timing passing.

[Waldo]

Bobble, most times Favre throws it deep he put it away from the safety and where his guy can make a play. To me that's exactly what you want.

And most of the time his guys have to adjust to it because it isn't very accurate.

At least McCarthy rejuvenated that part of his game.

His deep ball '05 to '06 was an absolute joke, he couldn't hid the broadside of a barn more than 20 yards down the sideline. Even in '07, when he did make big deep throws to the edge, they weren't very accurate. I'm pretty sure that he threw more int's than completions 20+ outside the #'s in '07.

Aaron's WR's put out their arms while running and it just drops right in there.

Well, I hope he keeps doing exactly what he's doing. You can have style points. Keep it away from the safety over the top and continue to rack up the big gains.

Brett has been a career underthrower. The S isn't the problem, it is the fact that his underthrow goes right to the beaten CB, and not the WR, who has to stop and turn around.

[Rastak]

Bobble, most times Favre throws it deep he put it away from the safety and where his guy can make a play. To me that's exactly what you want.

And most of the time his guys have to adjust to it because it isn't very accurate.

At least McCarthy rejuvenated that part of his game.

His deep ball '05 to '06 was an absolute joke, he couldn't hid the broadside of a barn more than 20 yards down the sideline. Even in '07, when he did make big deep throws to the edge, they weren't very accurate. I'm pretty sure that he threw more int's than completions 20+ outside the #'s in '07.

Aaron's WR's put out their arms while running and it just drops right in there.

Well, I hope he keeps doing exactly what he's doing. You can have style points. Keep it away from the safety over the top and continue to rack up the big gains.

Brett has been a career underthrower. The S isn't the problem, it is the fact that his underthrow goes right to the beaten CB, and not the WR, who has to stop and turn around.

I have no idea what you are talking about. He has NOT been primarily underthrowing receivers. You been watching the games? I've seen every play. He's been shading it off to the side more often than not.

[bobblehead]

Bobble, most times Favre throws it deep he put it away from the safety and where his guy can make a play. To me that's exactly what you want.

Again, don't want to pollute this thread with BF, but he usually puts it where the safety, reciever, and back judge can't get it. ARod puts it where his reciever fights for it, and the DBack can only break it up. Any long time packer fan will tell you that the long ball is not BF's forte....and chic's STILL dig him.