Aaron Rodgers now..

[Waldo]

Two different problems. Both can be alleviated by altering the game plan, but both still need to be corrected. Rodgers has proven adaptable to throwing to checkdowns. The line has not proven is can pass block well with regularity.

I recall Aaron being unaffectionately dubbed "the checkdown king" prior to him taking over at QB. Enough so that many questioned his ability to drive the S's deep in alignment, so that the short stuff and run stays open.

A QB that checks down too much and throws short too much, is a QB about to throw a lot of pick 6's and have no running game.

[RashanGary]

Bottom line, when you run well and slow down the rush with short plays, the deep stuff becomes easy. dL are afraid to get burned with a run or screen, so the don't come 1000 miles/hr and bam, the deep ones are open too.

It's not magic, the oL's improvement. IT's just not.

[pbmax]

Many here hating on teh OL are just wrong. They're not great but they're not bad either. This last 3 weeks is who they are when put in posiiton to succeed.

A line that was on a pace for a non Randall Cunningham league sack record is not average at pass blocking. Even subtracting the 25% that belongs on the shoulders of the QB, its a bad performance. There are several reasons; Barbre was not ready to pass block at tackle, Clifton got injured, Colledge is still wildly inconsistent and Spitz got hurt. Then they discover Lang can play both tackles better than any other backup and Tauscher gets healthy. They may now be average, but I am still not convinced of that.

[RashanGary]

And for that matter, it's not magic taht a group that has a history of pass protecting well just suddenly sucked. None of that is magic. All of it has a reason beyond "this guy just sucks now".

[ThunderDan]

So you want to go back to split backs?

No, just the Non-Verticle WCO.

[RashanGary]

Many here hating on teh OL are just wrong. They're not great but they're not bad either. This last 3 weeks is who they are when put in posiiton to succeed.

A line that was on a pace for a non Randall Cunningham league sack record is not average at pass blocking. Even subtracting the 25% that belongs on the shoulders of the QB, its a bad performance. There are several reasons; Barbre was not ready to pass block at tackle, Clifton got injured, Colledge is still wildly inconsistent and Spitz got hurt. Then they discover Lang can play both tackles better than any other backup and Tauscher gets healthy. They may now be average, but I am still not convinced of that.

haha. Whatever We just disagree. Let's see how many sacks occur after teh change (three weeks ago). It's right back to what we're used to.

[RashanGary]

I love what they're doing now.

Runs (and really freaking good ones lately)
Short passes
Screens
Middle passes
Deep passes

And the magical part of all of it is that they're even protecting good on teh deep ones now (funny how that happens when you slow down the rush)


Before you saw few runs
few short passes
no screens
a bunch of middle passes
a bunch of deep passes

It's not wonder teams were coming at Rodgers head, honestly. Hey, they've learned. I'm excited, but I'm not pretending the last 8 games didn't happen and I'm not blaming it all on teh OL or even most of it. If the OL just sucked, we'd have no answer. That's not what we have here. There is an answer.

[pbmax]

How has this become a point of contention? If the QB and the coach decide to run more screens, and emphasize throwing the checkdown, then the line IS going to look better if pass blocking is their problem. There is nothing magical about it, they just have to hold their guy off for less time.

If the QB is holding the ball too long, he is going to ADD to the problem by not taking advantage of plays where his protection holds up.

Two different problems. Both can be alleviated by altering the game plan, but both still need to be corrected. Rodgers has proven adaptable to throwing to checkdowns. The line has not proven is can pass block well with regularity.

Tauscher and Lang also make this difficult to quantitfy, as their insertion into the lineup did make the line better as pass blocking.

You say it's normal to have to protect with very few plays called to slow down the rush. The OL is doing a great job with the deep stuff now too. Defenses can't just go at the QB's head any more. That's teh biggest difference according to Rodgers. Maybe you'll belielve it when you hear it. You just don't follow as closely as me so you're a step behind me.

Just a wise pre-caution while watching a man step off a cliff.

Seven sacks in last three games and at least one QB fumble on those hits. Seems like that average O line still is having issues, new gameplan or not. That projects to 38 for the year. Not a healthy target to shoot for. Especially when one of the games was against the ghastly Lions defense.

McCarthy didn't run screens with the 2007 offense. So it would seem his O can run without all the extra attention to the line's struggles. Favre certainly helped as well.

[bobblehead]

And for that matter, it's not magic taht a group that has a history of pass protecting well just suddenly sucked. None of that is magic. All of it has a reason beyond "this guy just sucks now".

Well, it sort of is just "magic". We replaced a rock of Mark Tauscher with an inept, and Cliffy got old in a hurry...it was happening last season already. When both of your tackles aren't the same player they were you "magically" get much worse at pass blocking....its not like it was the same 5 as last year....it wasn't even close.

This year. Cliffy, College, Spitz, Sitton, Babre

Last year Cliffy, College, Wells, Spitz, Tauscher

Not the same....and add in cliffys fall off, not even close.

[pbmax]

Two different problems. Both can be alleviated by altering the game plan, but both still need to be corrected. Rodgers has proven adaptable to throwing to checkdowns. The line has not proven is can pass block well with regularity.

I recall Aaron being unaffectionately dubbed "the checkdown king" prior to him taking over at QB. Enough so that many questioned his ability to drive the S's deep in alignment, so that the short stuff and run stays open.

A QB that checks down too much and throws short too much, is a QB about to throw a lot of pick 6's and have no running game.

No doubt about it. He is more of a QB than advertised and that is saying something for a QB with top half of the first round draft grades.

The checkdown king stuff was from his early pre-season games, mop up games and very early in his first starting season as I am sure you know. As 2008 went along, it was clear he was more than that.

In fact, I suspect that McCarthy's plans for this year were based very much on his ability and willingness to go deep with accuracy. Seeing it all shot to hell on protection had to give him pause. I think the building collapsed in two stages. Rodgers slowly lost his poise in the pocket and his internal clock was damaged by the very early pressure he was getting in the first few games. Whatever corrections or improvements the line was able to make were lost when he started to hold onto the ball unwisely.

My guess is that there were serious attempts to correct both in the normal manner, but after Tampa it became clear the season was at risk and there was no time to adjust in the normal manner. That's when the season game plan was chucked and M3 went more conservative. Not completely conservative, but with a thought to establishing protection for his QB and his line. Tauscher and Lang helped as well.

Speaking of Lang, has anyone counted the number of quality starts by T2's 2009 draft class?

[Waldo]

Bottom line, when you run well and slow down the rush with short plays, the deep stuff becomes easy. dL are afraid to get burned with a run or screen, so the don't come 1000 miles/hr and bam, the deep ones are open too.

It's not magic, the oL's improvement. IT's just not.

That might happen. Offenses and defenses are slow to "adjust" for the exact reason that smart teams have plan A and plan B. Plan B is what they do best and can levy big damage with. Plan A will force an adjustment that opens up plan B. When you can't stop plan A, adjusting to it and stopping it, half the time will only make matters worse for you.

Little things tell you how opponents respect certain things. Two way gos for example on the DL. Edge rushers that go outside have no respect for the draw if there is not a inside dog/blitz called. SS alignment. If the QB is hot, he'll have to walk back to the deep hash. If the run is hot, he'll play in the outer box or in the box (pretty rare nowadays, SS's are more athletic and teams better at torching it with the pass). If the QB likes to check down or throw slants and quick stuff, the SS will be closer and out wider than the tackle box. On many teams, a deep mike/mack indicates a fear of the TE. A team that marches both safeties up to slightly deeper than the mike/mack, and plays them wider than the box, has zero respect for your deep passing game.

When yo say do X and it causes Y, really only half the time at most does that reaction take place.

You've got DC's like Dom, that call to situation, that can be terribly frustrating for OC's to crack. Dom doesn't typically adjust to his opponent during the game. He tends to stick to situation. He's got a 3rd and 8 call at the 50 midway through the 2nd, and it doesn't matter what you try to show, Dom's call is tailored to stopping what you most likely want to do given the situation, not what it looks like you want to do. Even if it means being in seemingly the wrong personnel group for who the O has out there, Dom's method is effective (a few other play callers in the league are like this, Lovie and Rex Ryan are notably like this too, whereas other guys are strict substitution guys, and play who you've got on the field (Lebeau is like this)).

[sharpe1027]

And for that matter, it's not magic taht a group that has a history of pass protecting well just suddenly sucked. None of that is magic. All of it has a reason beyond "this guy just sucks now".

Having Clifton and Tauscher replaced by the likes of Barbre and Colledge were responsible for a lot of those sacks. You're right though, nothing magical about it...once Cliffy and Tausch got healthy, they have improved considerably.

[RashanGary]

Just with Aaron Rodgers, I want teh record to show that I'm more disappointed in McCarthy than Rodgers. Rodgers has some lessons to learn, but he has a chance to be a truely great player, maybe the best QB in the league for a span.

I was wrong about how quickly it would all come together, but I'm not convinced it won't either. In fact, it might all be coming together before our eyes. It jsut wasn't together from day one and it had an impact on us that I didn't expect so I was wrong on how quickly he'd replace the last guy.

McCarthy now, that will take more time than I have right now. I have severe doubts about him as a person and as a coach.

[Cheesehead Craig]

JH -
Just want to get some clarification:

1 - You don't like MM as a HC and feel that he is holding this team back due to that he doesn't run the ball enough.

2 - ARod is already a good QB and is becoming very good now and simply wasn't in the very good category prior to the Dallas game (where the win streak and the warm fuzzy's started for everyone) as most here declared.

3 - The OL is good but just put in poor situations due to MM's playcalling and ARod holding the ball too long.

Not looking to trap you or anything like that. Just want to get where you're coming from.

[Smidgeon]

So you want to go back to split backs?

No, just the Non-Verticle WCO.

Personally, I'm okay with the Verticle WCO. AR is one of the most accurate long ball passers in the league, if not the best. His accuracy along the sidelines is ridiculous good. He certainly throws the ball well for having so few long INTs. And that's why I'm okay with it. It's because it's a talent. Why not capitalize on it?