Special Teams - Cover your eyes

[mraynrand]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. )

The fallout of the Green Bay Packers decision to replace Brett Favre with Aaron Rodgers cannot reflect poorly on Ted Thompson ' et all ' that were instrumentle in that decision. Yes Ted Thompsons fears were realized when Favre ended up with an arch rival. Yes the early reports on that may be glamorized or sensationalized as a poor reflection on Ted Thompson, but long term, TT and Aaron Rodgers cedrtainly now appears to be the best course. Aaron Rodgers isn't stumbling out of the gate. He's probably most responsible for saving Ted Thompson's butt.

As someone else mentioned, there are no guarantees. Rodgers could go in the tank next year. TT can certainly be judged on getting the Favre thing wrong, if that's the way it turns out. It's already bad enough as I've detailed, and it could get worse. If Rodgers leads the Packers beyond what Favre does this year (and next?) for Minnesota, then TT will be judged favorably.

[woodbuck27]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. )

The fallout of the Green Bay Packers decision to replace Brett Favre with Aaron Rodgers cannot reflect poorly on Ted Thompson ' et all ' that were instrumentle in that decision. Yes Ted Thompsons fears were realized when Favre ended up with an arch rival. Yes the early reports on that may be glamorized or sensationalized as a poor reflection on Ted Thompson, but long term, TT and Aaron Rodgers cedrtainly now appears to be the best course. Aaron Rodgers isn't stumbling out of the gate. He's probably most responsible for saving Ted Thompson's butt.

As someone else mentioned, there are no guarantees. Rodgers could go in the tank next year. TT can certainly be judged on getting the Favre thing wrong, if that's the way it turns out. It's already bad enough as I've detailed, and it could get worse. If Rodgers leads the Packers beyond what Favre does this year (and next?) for Minnesota, then TT will be judged favorably.

Yup. It hinges to a great extent on how Aaron Rodgers performs overall and his contribution in terms of winning.

[Smidgeon]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. )

Well, I was considering just writing in what's happened already: Beating the Packers twice, Favre playing his best football ever, and the Vikes being almost assured a bye in the playoffs. That's bad enough to consider it a major blunder. Add in a possible third victory over the Pack in the Playoffs, an NFC Championship, possibly Superbowl - well, you get the idea. Yes there are no guarantees, but what matters is how Favre is playing in Minnesota - so unfortunately it looks like TT is getting punked pretty good on the Favre situation. But there is still hope - the Pack could lay the lumber on the Vikes in the playoffs and the whole thing would turn on it's head. That's what I'm hoping for, but I don't think it's likely.

I would definitely agree that it looks like a blunder. On the surface, it appears as if it's an easy argument to say that "if he's playing this well in Minn, then he'd be playing this well in GB." But that argument avoids a lot of factors and a whole season of football. A lot of progression (both personal and professional) can occur in a year of football, and there are just too many possibilities to say that it was a blunder.

Let me pose an equal hypothetical to TT doing what he could to keep BF in GB as long as BF wanted: In doing so, he would have either a) kept an AR who needed to play in games to improve on the bench as he had peaked in practices thus stagnating his talent and never getting the opportunity to play him when he needed to play in order to continue his education as a QB, or b) trade AR to another team and hope that the next QB GB took in the draft (which ended up being Brohm) would work out and become the next QB of the future/BF understudy. I doubt the second scenario would have happened because BF was getting up there in age, but that's what GB's done before with their QBs (most noteably Hasselback). Now if he had taken the first option, who knows if when AR would have taken the field (after year 5 at least, maybe after year 6) he would still be young enough to be malleable as a QB as he would have spent an extra 2-3 (maybe more) years on the bench. Maybe instead he comes out peaked and doesn't improve anymore because he stagnated on the bench. In the second scenario, the next QB of the future would have been cut and sitting on Buffalo's roster. They'd be in even further desperate straits and this time with panic because there was no high draft pick ready to take over when Favre didn't unretire for the 3rd or 4th time.

But these are complete hypotheticals and not really arguments of value because we don't know what would have happened had TT done what he could to keep BF around. In the same way, your position that it's a blunder because BF is doing well is an equal hypothetical because we don't know how well he would have played had he stayed in GB. One could even argue that TT blundered by not trading BF directly to Minn because we don't know what Minn would have given up in trade value to GB. The year he spent on the Jets would have been in Minn, his arm would have been torn and he would have tanked the Viking's season last year. That's equally hypothetical. There are just way too many scenarios when you bring in "what might have been". The only things we really know for sure is that BF is playing better in Minn than he has in...ever, and AR appears to be the next great GB QB.

I'm not even sure you can call this a blunder in the short term because of how well AR is playing out of the gate (his first year starting only the second QB to throw for over 4k yards in that starting year; the first, Warner, has 2 MVP awards).

[Fritz]

How 'bout them special teams, huh? How 'bout 'em? Think they'll hold up Monday night?

Will they be the downfall of this year's edition of the Green Bay Packers?

[mraynrand]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. )

Well, I was considering just writing in what's happened already: Beating the Packers twice, Favre playing his best football ever, and the Vikes being almost assured a bye in the playoffs. That's bad enough to consider it a major blunder. Add in a possible third victory over the Pack in the Playoffs, an NFC Championship, possibly Superbowl - well, you get the idea. Yes there are no guarantees, but what matters is how Favre is playing in Minnesota - so unfortunately it looks like TT is getting punked pretty good on the Favre situation. But there is still hope - the Pack could lay the lumber on the Vikes in the playoffs and the whole thing would turn on it's head. That's what I'm hoping for, but I don't think it's likely.

I would definitely agree that it looks like a blunder. On the surface, it appears as if it's an easy argument to say that "if he's playing this well in Minn, then he'd be playing this well in GB." But that argument avoids a lot of factors and a whole season of football. A lot of progression (both personal and professional) can occur in a year of football, and there are just too many possibilities to say that it was a blunder.

Let me pose an equal hypothetical to TT doing what he could to keep BF in GB as long as BF wanted: In doing so, he would have either a) kept an AR who needed to play in games to improve on the bench as he had peaked in practices thus stagnating his talent and never getting the opportunity to play him when he needed to play in order to continue his education as a QB, or b) trade AR to another team and hope that the next QB GB took in the draft (which ended up being Brohm) would work out and become the next QB of the future/BF understudy. I doubt the second scenario would have happened because BF was getting up there in age, but that's what GB's done before with their QBs (most noteably Hasselback). Now if he had taken the first option, who knows if when AR would have taken the field (after year 5 at least, maybe after year 6) he would still be young enough to be malleable as a QB as he would have spent an extra 2-3 (maybe more) years on the bench. Maybe instead he comes out peaked and doesn't improve anymore because he stagnated on the bench. In the second scenario, the next QB of the future would have been cut and sitting on Buffalo's roster. They'd be in even further desperate straits and this time with panic because there was no high draft pick ready to take over when Favre didn't unretire for the 3rd or 4th time.

But these are complete hypotheticals and not really arguments of value because we don't know what would have happened had TT done what he could to keep BF around. In the same way, your position that it's a blunder because BF is doing well is an equal hypothetical because we don't know how well he would have played had he stayed in GB. One could even argue that TT blundered by not trading BF directly to Minn because we don't know what Minn would have given up in trade value to GB. The year he spent on the Jets would have been in Minn, his arm would have been torn and he would have tanked the Viking's season last year. That's equally hypothetical. There are just way too many scenarios when you bring in "what might have been". The only things we really know for sure is that BF is playing better in Minn than he has in...ever, and AR appears to be the next great GB QB.

I'm not even sure you can call this a blunder in the short term because of how well AR is playing out of the gate (his first year starting only the second QB to throw for over 4k yards in that starting year; the first, Warner, has 2 MVP awards).

Wow. Forget all the hypotheticals. Thompson got rid of Favre and he is playing lights out for Minnesota. It looks bad, doesn't it?

[mraynrand]

How 'bout them special teams, huh? How 'bout 'em? Think they'll hold up Monday night?

Will they be the downfall of this year's edition of the Green Bay Packers?

I'd like to see Favre as a gunner for the Ravens. I'd like for the Packers to do a Special Teams on him.

As far as the Ravens, I'd like to see our FBs serve Ray Lewis a few Pancakes and shut his piehole.

[Smidgeon]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. )

Well, I was considering just writing in what's happened already: Beating the Packers twice, Favre playing his best football ever, and the Vikes being almost assured a bye in the playoffs. That's bad enough to consider it a major blunder. Add in a possible third victory over the Pack in the Playoffs, an NFC Championship, possibly Superbowl - well, you get the idea. Yes there are no guarantees, but what matters is how Favre is playing in Minnesota - so unfortunately it looks like TT is getting punked pretty good on the Favre situation. But there is still hope - the Pack could lay the lumber on the Vikes in the playoffs and the whole thing would turn on it's head. That's what I'm hoping for, but I don't think it's likely.

I would definitely agree that it looks like a blunder. On the surface, it appears as if it's an easy argument to say that "if he's playing this well in Minn, then he'd be playing this well in GB." But that argument avoids a lot of factors and a whole season of football. A lot of progression (both personal and professional) can occur in a year of football, and there are just too many possibilities to say that it was a blunder.

Let me pose an equal hypothetical to TT doing what he could to keep BF in GB as long as BF wanted: In doing so, he would have either a) kept an AR who needed to play in games to improve on the bench as he had peaked in practices thus stagnating his talent and never getting the opportunity to play him when he needed to play in order to continue his education as a QB, or b) trade AR to another team and hope that the next QB GB took in the draft (which ended up being Brohm) would work out and become the next QB of the future/BF understudy. I doubt the second scenario would have happened because BF was getting up there in age, but that's what GB's done before with their QBs (most noteably Hasselback). Now if he had taken the first option, who knows if when AR would have taken the field (after year 5 at least, maybe after year 6) he would still be young enough to be malleable as a QB as he would have spent an extra 2-3 (maybe more) years on the bench. Maybe instead he comes out peaked and doesn't improve anymore because he stagnated on the bench. In the second scenario, the next QB of the future would have been cut and sitting on Buffalo's roster. They'd be in even further desperate straits and this time with panic because there was no high draft pick ready to take over when Favre didn't unretire for the 3rd or 4th time.

But these are complete hypotheticals and not really arguments of value because we don't know what would have happened had TT done what he could to keep BF around. In the same way, your position that it's a blunder because BF is doing well is an equal hypothetical because we don't know how well he would have played had he stayed in GB. One could even argue that TT blundered by not trading BF directly to Minn because we don't know what Minn would have given up in trade value to GB. The year he spent on the Jets would have been in Minn, his arm would have been torn and he would have tanked the Viking's season last year. That's equally hypothetical. There are just way too many scenarios when you bring in "what might have been". The only things we really know for sure is that BF is playing better in Minn than he has in...ever, and AR appears to be the next great GB QB.

I'm not even sure you can call this a blunder in the short term because of how well AR is playing out of the gate (his first year starting only the second QB to throw for over 4k yards in that starting year; the first, Warner, has 2 MVP awards).

Wow. Forget all the hypotheticals. Thompson got rid of Favre and he is playing lights out for Minnesota. It looks bad, doesn't it?

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

[mraynrand]

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

I disagree. If Favre were playing like crap, no one would think getting rid of him was the wrong move. That he is playing like an MVP, and for the Packers' number one rival makes it completely relevant. The only reason it isn't that bad is the way Rodgers is playing. The other thing that makes it look bad for Thompson is the critique that he didn't assemble a good enough squad around Favre to win. (Now don't go all crazy on this one - I could argue the opposite just as easily). Rather than continue to debate this, let's let the rest of the season play out because if Rodgers outplays Favre and beats him in a playoff game, or advances further in the playoffs, all this is moot.

[RashanGary]

Favre had a subtle arrogance about him, about his play, that I don't many in Green Bay were able to see.

I think what happened really humbled Favre. he's playing better than ever in Minny, and let's face it, they have the better team. Tavaris Jackson lead them to the playoffs last year over the Packers.


I do think the Packers let go the guy with the talent to play better at the moment, but the attitude that came with it and how he would have played here. I don't think he'd have the humility he has now or the drive he has now, or the surrounding cast he has now if he was still here.

He's a damn fine football player, still great in a different way that he used to be, but us keeping him, the way he was acting, the things that happened. . . I don't think it was much of a choice, either bend over for Favre and give up the team or set some limits of what is acceptable/unacceptable from the highest paid player. Brett's like a spoiled Bratt who was finally told no. He learned. Best for both sides IMO. He needed that. It sucks, but sometimes your best salesman turns into an arrogant A-hole and you feel it's hurting the team more than his worth. It just sucks when that happens, but I think that's what happened. He went to antoher company with hunger and humility and now he's tearing it up. Good for him, but it doesn't erase what was happening here and doesn't mean there was anything we could have done, outside this wakeup call, to make it work here.

[Smidgeon]

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

I disagree. If Favre were playing like crap, no one would think getting rid of him was the wrong move. That he is playing like an MVP, and for the Packers' number one rival makes it completely relevant. The only reason it isn't that bad is the way Rodgers is playing. The other thing that makes it look bad for Thompson is the critique that he didn't assemble a good enough squad around Favre to win. (Now don't go all crazy on this one - I could argue the opposite just as easily). Rather than continue to debate this, let's let the rest of the season play out because if Rodgers outplays Favre and beats him in a playoff game, or advances further in the playoffs, all this is moot.

Granted that people wouldn't be questioning if it was a blunder if BF was bombing in Minn. But that would only prove that it wasn't a blunder to move on. But there are still way too many issues and variables to say categorically that is was a blunder, even if he is playing well. But there's a difference between perception and reality, and I surmise that you're arguing the perception angle whilst I'm arguing the reality angle. Oh well, different perspectives.

[RashanGary]

On a side note, I'm hoping they fall short this year. I hate to see those actions pay off for people. And then the slime ball, Chilly, yeah, I don't root for them.


I have mad respect for many of the Vikes, just those two, I don't want to see dishonesty and arrogance pay off.

[mraynrand]

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

I disagree. If Favre were playing like crap, no one would think getting rid of him was the wrong move. That he is playing like an MVP, and for the Packers' number one rival makes it completely relevant. The only reason it isn't that bad is the way Rodgers is playing. The other thing that makes it look bad for Thompson is the critique that he didn't assemble a good enough squad around Favre to win. (Now don't go all crazy on this one - I could argue the opposite just as easily). Rather than continue to debate this, let's let the rest of the season play out because if Rodgers outplays Favre and beats him in a playoff game, or advances further in the playoffs, all this is moot.

Granted that people wouldn't be questioning if it was a blunder if BF was bombing in Minn. But that would only prove that it wasn't a blunder to move on. But there are still way too many issues and variables to say categorically that is was a blunder, even if he is playing well. But there's a difference between perception and reality, and I surmise that you're arguing the perception angle whilst I'm arguing the reality angle. Oh well, different perspectives.

Defining 'blunder' as not working out the best for the Packers, I'll just have to quote another Packerrat: "Too soon to tell."

[Smidgeon]

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

I disagree. If Favre were playing like crap, no one would think getting rid of him was the wrong move. That he is playing like an MVP, and for the Packers' number one rival makes it completely relevant. The only reason it isn't that bad is the way Rodgers is playing. The other thing that makes it look bad for Thompson is the critique that he didn't assemble a good enough squad around Favre to win. (Now don't go all crazy on this one - I could argue the opposite just as easily). Rather than continue to debate this, let's let the rest of the season play out because if Rodgers outplays Favre and beats him in a playoff game, or advances further in the playoffs, all this is moot.

Granted that people wouldn't be questioning if it was a blunder if BF was bombing in Minn. But that would only prove that it wasn't a blunder to move on. But there are still way too many issues and variables to say categorically that is was a blunder, even if he is playing well. But there's a difference between perception and reality, and I surmise that you're arguing the perception angle whilst I'm arguing the reality angle. Oh well, different perspectives.

Defining 'blunder' as not working out the best for the Packers, I'll just have to quote another Packerrat: "Too soon to tell."

And I'll simply say we'll never know.

[Fosco33]

I fed the net avg falling to Pelissero a few weeks back... no more goats I guess. Wish we had Ryan still.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PUNTING&season=2009&seasonType=REG

Today as punters in the NFL Jon Ryan (Seattle) is ranked 8th while Jeremy Kampinos (Green Bay) is ranked 24th.

The argument may be? That if Jon Ryan was still in Green Bay he'd be ranked about 24th. Jon Ryan is a maturing punter in the NFL and he came to the NFL with outstanding promise and results from the CFL.

I hear ya Ed.

My friend played with Frost in N. Iowa. He told Frost about this and he laughed. Apparently his avg in the UFL was still 42-44 this year. But now he's a day trader - life of a below avg punter...

[Packers4Ever]

Football Outsiders has the Packer Special Teams at 32nd this week. I have no spin or kool-aid here. They stink. I think wist should stop worrying about the defense and figure out why the Packers can't draft, trade or waiver wire for Special Teams.

Wow. That's really sickening... We have no chance for anything with ST's playing that way. We might as well fold up and quit right now.

No no no, never say die, I'm very sure MM is watching carefully, he couldn't possibly miss such sickening play. Bet we'll see new coaching on ST next year ??