CARDS SAW A WEAKNESS AND EXPLOITED IT

[MichiganPackerFan]

I am not saying Skin or MPF are wrong...

of course I'm not wrong: my comment was to be used for humorous purposes only. Skin on the other hand is wrong. Very wrong. And in many aspects. Scary sometimes too. No offense Skin... (Still pissed about the parts of my life I can never get back after you post videos...)

[SkinBasket]

Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets,

Did he? I honestly don't know. I admit I tend to think that you don't know either, but I'd be interested in hearing why you say this.

Because I watched the game. Once, maybe even twice, the broadcast team even pointed it out on replay. Bush is out of his element on defense. He's been pressed into service in kind of emergency role, for sure. But he hasn't improved. He lacks an understanding of our coverages. He lacks the basic understanding of how to play defense in a general sense technique wise, and despite what some people claim is blazing speed, he sure as shit doesn't seem to be able to recover when a guy runs past him.

Bush was exactly what the Cardinals were talking about when they claimed they saw some things they could attack with stacked and bunched formations. Well that and the fact Bigby plays 30 yards off the LOS to limit his liability.

So you know that based on the comments of announcers? Fair, I guess. I was hoping you might educate me on this, but as I expected, you don't really know either.

You watched the game right? You know Bush is 24. Not that difficult to use your eyeballs and watch him play. He's the guy in green with the 24 on his jersey.

OK, I follow you so far, now enlighten me on how you know which receiver he's supposed to cover in bunched sets.

Well, one play comes to mind in which 24 was the inside DB. Three WRs to that side, one goes out, one up, and one in. Bush jumps the out WR despite another defender already covering and he being the furthest away while inside WR crosses middle literally right in front of Bush unopposed.

Here's another thing that comes to mind. Bush can't play defense. He's demonstrated that to a nauseating degree this season. So yeah, there's also some assumption on similar plays when Bush is in double on one WR while another runs free right past him, that he's the most likely candidate for who fucked up.

Your stance is based just as much on observation and conjecture as mine. If you want to argue that Bush is a decent defender or that he had a good game, go right ahead. I obviously can't stop you or your defense that this scheme is too complicated to possibly understand who should be covering who. Not that Bush can cover anyone anyway.

I didn't know that Bush's defensive abilities were such a point of contention.

[get louder at lambeau]

Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets,

Did he? I honestly don't know. I admit I tend to think that you don't know either, but I'd be interested in hearing why you say this.

Because I watched the game. Once, maybe even twice, the broadcast team even pointed it out on replay. Bush is out of his element on defense. He's been pressed into service in kind of emergency role, for sure. But he hasn't improved. He lacks an understanding of our coverages. He lacks the basic understanding of how to play defense in a general sense technique wise, and despite what some people claim is blazing speed, he sure as shit doesn't seem to be able to recover when a guy runs past him.

Bush was exactly what the Cardinals were talking about when they claimed they saw some things they could attack with stacked and bunched formations. Well that and the fact Bigby plays 30 yards off the LOS to limit his liability.

So you know that based on the comments of announcers? Fair, I guess. I was hoping you might educate me on this, but as I expected, you don't really know either.

You watched the game right? You know Bush is 24. Not that difficult to use your eyeballs and watch him play. He's the guy in green with the 24 on his jersey.

OK, I follow you so far, now enlighten me on how you know which receiver he's supposed to cover in bunched sets.

Well, one play comes to mind in which 24 was the inside DB. Three WRs to that side, one goes out, one up, and one in. Bush jumps the out WR despite another defender already covering and he being the furthest away while inside WR crosses middle literally right in front of Bush unopposed.

Here's another thing that comes to mind. Bush can't play defense. He's demonstrated that to a nauseating degree this season. So yeah, there's also some assumption on similar plays when Bush is in double on one WR while another runs free right past him, that he's the most likely candidate for who fucked up.

Your stance is based just as much on observation and conjecture as mine. If you want to argue that Bush is a decent defender or that he had a good game, go right ahead. I obviously can't stop you or your defense that this scheme is too complicated to possibly understand who should be covering who. Not that Bush can cover anyone anyway.

I didn't know that Bush's defensive abilities were such a point of contention.

Not saying I know better than you. I just want to hear some evidence, since I've heard lots of blame thrown his way, and not only by you.

I personally didn't see any really obvious fuckups from Bush. I'm no expert, as I've already stated. The way you stated that as a clear fact, I was curious.

I don't doubt he fucked up, but I do doubt he's as bad as many think. I think most of that is purely based on his reputation, which he has clearly earned. I just think he might be quite a bit better these days than his ultra-horrible reputation, and I haven't seen much evidence to the contrary.

[sharpe1027]

What I see is people blaming Bush first, being surprised that anyone would challenge them and only then trying to find proof to support their assumption. Maybe they are right, but even if they eventually are vindicated, they were still just using him as a convenient scapegoat. That's just a personal observation/belief, so take it for what it is worth.

[Zool]

The entire D sucked Sunday. Bush sucks consistently week in and week out. I just want him to not be on the team anymore. His ST contributions are few and far between lately and $1mil seems like an awful lot to pay for a 6th corner/4th safety.

[SkinBasket]

We're fine there.

[get louder at lambeau]

What I see is people blaming Bush first, being surprised that anyone would challenge them and only then trying to find proof to support their assumption. Maybe they are right, but even if they eventually are vindicated, they were still just using him as a convenient scapegoat. That's just a personal observation/belief, so take it for what it is worth.

I'm with you, sharpe. Great summary of the situation.

I really expected to see some evidence by now. I had no trouble finding evidence of Woodson's struggles this week. It should be even easier to find and deliver evidence of Bush's, if he really did suck as consistently or glaringly as some are saying.

Anyone? Evidence? Please?

I'd honestly like to see it. I have no doubt he had at least SOME bad plays. There is plenty of blame to go around. If no one else can bring anything at all, I'll dig up the two plays I noticed on the Warner highlights where he had problems, but neither looked too horrible, so I would guess there should be more.

[ThunderDan]

What I see is people blaming Bush first, being surprised that anyone would challenge them and only then trying to find proof to support their assumption. Maybe they are right, but even if they eventually are vindicated, they were still just using him as a convenient scapegoat. That's just a personal observation/belief, so take it for what it is worth.

I'm with you, sharpe. Great summary of the situation.

I really expected to see some evidence by now. I had no trouble finding evidence of Woodson's struggles this week. It should be even easier to find and deliver evidence of Bush's, if he really did suck as consistently or glaringly as some are saying.

Anyone? Evidence? Please?

I'd honestly like to see it. I have no doubt he had at least SOME bad plays. There is plenty of blame to go around. If no one else can bring anything at all, I'll dig up the two plays I noticed on the Warner highlights where he had problems, but neither looked too horrible, so I would guess there should be more.

Like anyone here has access to the endzone cams that the teams do. Plus, I need the playcalls and coverage for every defensive snap. Somehow I don't think that is going to happen. If I had both I would happily breakdown the coverage and assign blame. Since I have neither I won't.

Like anyone here has the evidence to show that any one on the D played good or bad!!!

[SkinBasket]

What I see is people blaming Bush first, being surprised that anyone would challenge them and only then trying to find proof to support their assumption. Maybe they are right, but even if they eventually are vindicated, they were still just using him as a convenient scapegoat. That's just a personal observation/belief, so take it for what it is worth.

Maybe others did blame him above the others, but I haven't. I've stated that our implosion started at the D line failing to generate pressure, which meant we couldn't dictate the defense, which meant we had to play players who aren't very good, like Bush and Chillar over our stronger base packages. It's not their fault they aren't great players. It's just unfortunate for the team.

I simply think that Bush and Bigby, and to a lesser extent Chillar, aren't very good at all and need to be upgraded for those games when our D line does struggle to control the line and generate pressure. Bush's play in extended time this past few months has been horrid. He's not a scapegoat. He's just bad.

[SkinBasket]

What I see is people blaming Bush first, being surprised that anyone would challenge them and only then trying to find proof to support their assumption. Maybe they are right, but even if they eventually are vindicated, they were still just using him as a convenient scapegoat. That's just a personal observation/belief, so take it for what it is worth.

I'm with you, sharpe. Great summary of the situation.

I really expected to see some evidence by now. I had no trouble finding evidence of Woodson's struggles this week. It should be even easier to find and deliver evidence of Bush's, if he really did suck as consistently or glaringly as some are saying.

Anyone? Evidence? Please?

I'd honestly like to see it. I have no doubt he had at least SOME bad plays. There is plenty of blame to go around. If no one else can bring anything at all, I'll dig up the two plays I noticed on the Warner highlights where he had problems, but neither looked too horrible, so I would guess there should be more.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I think a lot of us have seen enough of Bush to know what kind of player he is without searching the internet for random bits of highlight footage that may or may not have Bush in them. I'm fine with my impression of him that I gained during the game. If you're not and you feel Bush is fine, then that's fine too. I'm just not going to put that kind of effort into arguing about the minutia of how our 4th safety/6th CB sucks. Sorry if that makes me lazy, but really, there's not much value in it considering what we know of the guy from watching him play - which is too much for many of us.

[get louder at lambeau]

What I see is people blaming Bush first, being surprised that anyone would challenge them and only then trying to find proof to support their assumption. Maybe they are right, but even if they eventually are vindicated, they were still just using him as a convenient scapegoat. That's just a personal observation/belief, so take it for what it is worth.

I'm with you, sharpe. Great summary of the situation.

I really expected to see some evidence by now. I had no trouble finding evidence of Woodson's struggles this week. It should be even easier to find and deliver evidence of Bush's, if he really did suck as consistently or glaringly as some are saying.

Anyone? Evidence? Please?

I'd honestly like to see it. I have no doubt he had at least SOME bad plays. There is plenty of blame to go around. If no one else can bring anything at all, I'll dig up the two plays I noticed on the Warner highlights where he had problems, but neither looked too horrible, so I would guess there should be more.

Like anyone here has access to the endzone cams that the teams do. Plus, I need the playcalls and coverage for every defensive snap. Somehow I don't think that is going to happen. If I had both I would happily breakdown the coverage and assign blame. Since I have neither I won't.

Like anyone here has the evidence to show that any one on the D played good or bad!!!

Jesus Christ, what a retared cop-out. Are you somehow realted to Johnny Cochran? I can show Woodson fucking up OBVIOUSLY on simple highlight video from NFL.com, and have.

If we needed all that to be able to tell anything about anything, then why do we even bother to watch the game? How bout some plain old everyday highlights? This is just a discussion, not a jury trial. Let's see some video that just shows where it LOOKS like something is Bush's fault- no digital watermark or notary witnessed signature to verify authenticity necessary. Let's use some common sense here.

[Smidgeon]

I had no trouble finding evidence of Woodson's struggles this week.

No, what you had was no trouble doing was concluding from highlight clips that Woodson did struggle. Which is debatable when you look at the specific plays involved or look at Fitzgerald's effectiveness when Woodson was guarding him.

But like ThunderDan stated, without access to the full field angles, the plays that were called, who was responsible for what route, etc, it's only in my personal estimation. And that also means that your "evidence" for Woodson struggling has just as many holes as anyone else claiming Bush struggled. It probably has less evidence, unless you can find me an image where Woodson is three steps behind a receiver on a route he was obviously in man against the entire play? If you do, I'll withdraw my objection...

As a disclaimer, early on I was way more down on Woodson because the whole D gave up 45 points. But the more I looked into it, the better in my estimation he played.

[Smidgeon]

I can show Woodson fucking up OBVIOUSLY on simple highlight video from NFL.com, and have.

And OBVIOUSLY you've pre-concluded from your wealth of football knowledge that yours is the only correct perspective on exactly what's happening in said highlight clips--well, yours and whoever agrees with you. I've argued why those highlights don't tell the entire story in detail and your response is just "..well, it's obvious." Sound familiar? Oh yeah. That's because that's the response that is getting you so worked up about Bush haters. But since you've already decided ahead of time, what's the point?

[ThunderDan]

Jesus Christ, what a retared cop-out. Are you somehow realted to Johnny Cochran? I can show Woodson fucking up OBVIOUSLY on simple highlight video from NFL.com, and have.

If we needed all that to be able to tell anything about anything, then why do we even bother to watch the game? How bout some plain old everyday highlights? This is just a discussion, not a jury trial. Let's see some video that just shows where it LOOKS like something is Bush's fault- no digital watermark or notary witnessed signature to verify authenticity necessary. Let's use some common sense here.

Very classy.

So you think Woodson is to blame? Why, because Fitzgerald pushes off on him and he falls to the ground?

Here is the classic example. Bush is helping defend the bunch set and runs after a player doubling him while a TD is scored by a WR running free into the area that Bush vacated. Seems like Bush is to blame. But how do we know he isn't following the correct WR? I can't unless I know the defensive play call on where the routes should be picked up.

I can assign Bush the blame in games like PITT when he lets his man run right by him and then completely plays the ball wrong allowing a TD.

To say that you can is an overstatement of the truth.

[get louder at lambeau]

Jesus Christ, what a retared cop-out. Are you somehow realted to Johnny Cochran? I can show Woodson fucking up OBVIOUSLY on simple highlight video from NFL.com, and have.

If we needed all that to be able to tell anything about anything, then why do we even bother to watch the game? How bout some plain old everyday highlights? This is just a discussion, not a jury trial. Let's see some video that just shows where it LOOKS like something is Bush's fault- no digital watermark or notary witnessed signature to verify authenticity necessary. Let's use some common sense here.

Very classy.

So you think Woodson is to blame? Why, because Fitzgerald pushes off on him and he falls to the ground?

Here is the classic example. Bush is helping defend the bunch set and runs after a player doubling him while a TD is scored by a WR running free into the area that Bush vacated. Seems like Bush is to blame. But how do we know he isn't following the correct WR? I can't unless I know the defensive play call on where the routes should be picked up.

I can assign Bush the blame in games like PITT when he lets his man run right by him and then completely plays the ball wrong allowing a TD.

To say that you can is an overstatement of the truth.

That WOULD be a great example. Can you show us all that play, or do we have to take your word for it happening that way?