Did We Get Suckered In GB v. Arz I?

[Noodle]

Don't think I've seen a thread on this -- if so, flame me and move on.

W showed too much of what our D can do in the final season game. In the re-match, Arz was certainly ready for Clay, who faced a bunch of chips and double teams. This was huge, as it shut him down early and allowed Warner to get in a groove.

No doubt there were other things we showed, such as a vulnerability to middle-of-the-field routes.

I'm thinking we should have gone ultra-vanilla, played a ton of base or prevent, and not rushed more than three alll day. We won a battle, but lost a war.

[hoosier]

At the time I thought McCarthy did the right thing by trying to maintain momentum. By contrast I have always cringed when I see the Colts under Tony Dungy or now Caldwell wrapping up their division in early October and then resting their best players for the last month of the season. They invariably come out flat and always seem to be at risk of getting ambushed in the divisional.

I know you're talking about scheming and not resting key players. But didn't McCarthy explicitly state that he held back a lot of what they had installed on offense? Would it have made any real difference if they had gone into "exhibition" mode on defense in the last game of the regular season? Arizona would still have had 16 weeks of film to look at in addition to their experience against Pittsburgh last year. I think that is really what gave Wisenhunt an advantage: seeing last year what it took to move the ball against a team that knew this scheme inside and out, and then being able to implement that knowledge against a team that does not yet know it like the back of their hand. Wait till next year.

[Smidgeon]

At the time I thought McCarthy did the right thing by trying to maintain momentum. By contrast I have always cringed when I see the Colts under Tony Dungy or now Caldwell wrapping up their division in early October and then resting their best players for the last month of the season. They invariably come out flat and always seem to be at risk of getting ambushed in the divisional.

I know you're talking about scheming and not resting key players. But didn't McCarthy explicitly state that he held back a lot of what they had installed on offense? Would it have made any real difference if they had gone into "exhibition" mode on defense in the last game of the regular season? Arizona would still have had 16 weeks of film to look at in addition to their experience against Pittsburgh last year. I think that is really what gave Wisenhunt an advantage: seeing last year what it took to move the ball against a team that knew this scheme inside and out, and then being able to implement that knowledge against a team that does not yet know it like the back of their hand. Wait till next year.

I guess the question becomes: Did Green Bay outplay expectations, and if they did, did that make people believe the sky was the limit this year because they already blew the expectations out of the water? I guess my point is that we, as fans, shouldn't be surprised at this exit via seeming defensive deficiencies. The GB defense is young, both in terms of age of the defenders (excepting CBs) and in terms of the age of the scheme in GB. It needs time to be tempered into a sharp steel.

[KYPack]

One move should have been to give CMII about a quarter of PT. In the quarter he played, I would have kept him to a very limited set of his moves. The Whiz definitely planned all his help and chips around containing CMII, who still had a very good game.

The Cards were pissed about that loss and the Card coaches fed off that. Was it a mistake for MM to play it the way he did?

I think so, to some extent.

[Smidgeon]

Was it a mistake for MM to play it the way he did?

I think so, to some extent.

Unfortunately, in this specific situation, that's something we can only know in retrospect.

[KYPack]

Was it a mistake for MM to play it the way he did?

I think so, to some extent.

Unfortunately, in this specific situation, that's something we can only know in retrospect.

Yeah.

I'm being a hypoctrite.

I feel you should play each game all out, so I agreed with MM's approach last week. After we lost, I disagree with it. I'm an inconsistent hypocrite. Doesn't that go with being a fan?

[Smidgeon]

Was it a mistake for MM to play it the way he did?

I think so, to some extent.

Unfortunately, in this specific situation, that's something we can only know in retrospect.

Yeah.

I'm being a hypoctrite.

I feel you should play each game all out, so I agreed with MM's approach last week. After we lost, I disagree with it. I'm an inconsistent hypocrite. Doesn't that go with being a fan?

Absolutely. Which is why it was unfortunate...

[pbmax]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

[wist43]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

[Smidgeon]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

Without execution, even the best plans will fail.

I'm not saying Caper's had the best plan, nor am I saying that the players were solely responsible for not executing. But I think it's fairly short-sighted for anyone to say that it's definitely one and not the other.

[Sparkey]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

You are over reacting to the result of the game.

Re-watch the game. Watch the confusion by the db's & lb's on who to cover when AZ went into stack formations.

We had Bush and Ford playing huge minutes in the game. Neither one should be starting if we are healthy, but we weren't. If you watch the game again, try to find where Jenkins, Raji, Pickett or Jolly made any consistent plays.

Absolutely ZERO pressure up the middle, which allowed Warner to throw to the middle of the field.

Then watch how none of the linebackers and db's had a clue as to who they were supposed to cover on all the stack formations AZ ran.

Honestly, they were beat by a better team. Does that mean the sky is falling or that heads should roll ? Of course not. That would be over reacting to one game.

Now, if next season, they have the same issues against stack/spread formations, then there are issues about the coaching adjustments.

First year with AR they go 6-10.
Second year with Ar the go 11-5.

Things are fine. Add another year in the 3-4 and the issues that arose in the AZ game should be no where near as bad.

[Smidgeon]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

You are over reacting to the result of the game.

Re-watch the game. Watch the confusion by the db's & lb's on who to cover when AZ went into stack formations.

We had Bush and Ford playing huge minutes in the game. Neither one should be starting if we are healthy, but we weren't. If you watch the game again, try to find where Jenkins, Raji, Pickett or Jolly made any consistent plays.

Absolutely ZERO pressure up the middle, which allowed Warner to throw to the middle of the field.

Then watch how none of the linebackers and db's had a clue as to who they were supposed to cover on all the stack formations AZ ran.

Honestly, they were beat by a better team. Does that mean the sky is falling or that heads should roll ? Of course not. That would be over reacting to one game.

Now, if next season, they have the same issues against stack/spread formations, then there are issues about the coaching adjustments.

First year with AR they go 6-10.
Second year with Ar the go 11-5.

Things are fine. Add another year in the 3-4 and the issues that arose in the AZ game should be no where near as bad.

Who's Ford?

[Sparkey]

Trevor Ford, Josh Bell, Brandon Underwood, Jarret Bush.

Any of the above should never touch the field at this time, however all did at one point or another due to injuries.

[pbmax]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

How can you successfully press a slot receiver who gets two yard head start on the DB?

And on the one particular play I remember (and it was repeated obviously) was a motion toward the center where the LB and CB exchanged responsibilities. Again, hard to press the motion guy. In the play I reference, the guy in motion was Breaston and Barnett picked him up first.

[pbmax]

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers and his players say they ran much of the same schemes. But the run game was for more effective for the Cardinals the second time around. And Warner was in the game the whole time. I don't think he changed the plan, but they were in bad situations all game compared to the previous week.