Colledge - Worse than Whitticker?

[KYPack]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.

I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

[get louder at lambeau]

If you've ever watched "The Colledge Experience" on packers.com, you know Colledge's demeanor. He comes across as a good natured, wouldn't hurt a fly, even-keeled, kinda dorky type of person. Probably a good friend, but not a big mean monster who's gonna kick the other big mean monsters' asses. Not very intimidating, despite his size.

If he's playing so bad, get some more competition for him, but for fuck's sake don't cut ANYBODY if you don't have to. We need all the depth we can get on the OL. He'd make a great interior backup if nothing else.

If there is no CBA, then Colledge will be going nowhere. He will be playing for a less than top-shelf RFA tender. It'll be cheap for a guy with that much starting experience.

Exactly why Colledge stays, starting or not. This one is not going to be solved by spending money on other teams' free agents. Anybody worth anything will be kept by their current team. Bring in some rookies, and see if any of the rookies or current backups can beat out an incumbent anywhere along the line next spring. Hopefully a left tackle falls into Ted's lap at #23.

[sharpe1027]

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

Good points. You do realize that you chose the extreme end of the spectrum of successes. The Bengals OL is talked about so much because, frankly, their success is rather outstanding, and certainly not the rule. Can it be done, yes, but none of the other 31 teams had as much success as the Bengals...

[Lurker64]

If there is no CBA, then Colledge will be going nowhere. He will be playing for a less than top-shelf RFA tender. It'll be cheap for a guy with that much starting experience.

Yeah, for a tender of just over 1 million dollars, the Packers will maintain right of first refusal and would get a second round draft choice from another team if Colledge signs elsewhere. That's dirt cheap, there's no way that they don't tender him.

[Bretsky]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.

I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

GREAT POST


There are successes and failures in free agency; I get a kick of of those who say....well who should we have signed ? Every year there are players out there who could help.

The key to free agency, if you are going to play, is hitting on the right ones

I'd rather go down swinging than looking.




SUBPOST: I am fully aware TT did a great job in free agency in year one so it is possibly that he will get the bat out again; but I'm not longer going to hang my hat on what he did in year one of his reign.

[pbmax]

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

I have only seen the Bengals twice outside of the Packers game (Vikes and half of each end of season game against the Jets). Are they that much better as a unit than their Packer counterparts with Tauscher? They seemed to run well, but how was the protection?

Both teams went 1 and done in the playoffs. And the Packer offense seems far much potent.

[Patler]

I think you could credit him with Sitton. EDS and Lang played well, though EDS has not had to start yet. Could Campen have had an effect on those two?

No credit for Sitton or Lang until they become better than they were when they arrived. Sitton probably would have started last year, if he hadn't gotten injured. They had him tabbed as a possible starter from the beginning of camp. If he develops into a Pro-Bowl caliber player, then I will credit the coaches with developing him. Until then, he came in as a good player and plays as a good player.

If they make Dietrich-Smith into a starter, I will give them credit on that one.

[Bretsky]

I think you could credit him with Sitton. EDS and Lang played well, though EDS has not had to start yet. Could Campen have had an effect on those two?

No credit for Sitton or Lang until they become better than they were when they arrived. Sitton probably would have started last year, if he hadn't gotten injured. They had him tabbed as a possible starter from the beginning of camp. If he develops into a Pro-Bowl caliber player, then I will credit the coaches with developing him. Until then, he came in as a good player and plays as a good player.

If they make Dietrich-Smith into a starter, I will give them credit on that one.

Well if we can't count them as improving then your "10" is a bit off as well

What about Wells; he seems to have improved some and is about as much as we could expect from a 6th/7th round draft pick.

[KYPack]

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

I have only seen the Bengals twice outside of the Packers game (Vikes and half of each end of season game against the Jets). Are they that much better as a unit than their Packer counterparts with Tauscher? They seemed to run well, but how was the protection?

Both teams went 1 and done in the playoffs. And the Packer offense seems far much potent.

Well, yer right.

The Bengals pass pro like they've got 5 guards. LT Whitworth is a hoss, but speed rushers give him fits. RT's Roland and Smith have trouble with the same kind of cat. Even with our 40 something sacks, we pass pro better with our old boy tackles. But, of course the Bengals will have an experienced Whitworth and Smith at the T spots when we are breaking our new guys in (at some point)

Where the Bengals really waxed our ass is at LG. Both Evan Mathis and Nate Livings are superior to the erratic Colledge at LG. To me, we should have signed guys like them back in '06 and built from there. This waiting around 3 and 4 years for college boy OLineman to develop is for the birds.

[pbmax]

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

I have only seen the Bengals twice outside of the Packers game (Vikes and half of each end of season game against the Jets). Are they that much better as a unit than their Packer counterparts with Tauscher? They seemed to run well, but how was the protection?

Both teams went 1 and done in the playoffs. And the Packer offense seems far much potent.

Well, yer right.

The Bengals pass pro like they've got 5 guards. LT Whitworth is a hoss, but speed rushers give him fits. RT's Roland and Smith have trouble with the same kind of cat. Even with our 40 something sacks, we pass pro better with our old boy tackles. But, of course the Bengals will have an experienced Whitworth and Smith at the T spots when we are breaking our new guys in (at some point)

Where the Bengals really waxed our ass is at LG. Both Evan Mathis and Nate Livings are superior to the erratic Colledge at LG. To me, we should have signed guys like them back in '06 and built from there. This waiting around 3 and 4 years for college boy OLineman to develop is for the birds.

Makes sense, as does the LG comparisons. In fact, while I would love Lang to come in and win RT, I could easily see them devoting him to LG to solve the enigma that is Colledge.

In that case I would expect Clifton to get two years to come back and then the hunt for tackle candidates to commence forthwith.

[Patler]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.

I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

GREAT POST

The Bengals also have a very highly regarded O-line coach, who has been there forever, even as head coaches changed. He has been successful with different groups of players, seemingly getting the best out of them, regardless of who he has, even in years when injuries decimated his starters. He has taken rejects of one sort or another from other teams and made them into a competent line. His bio:

Paul Alexander is in his 16th season on the Bengals coaching staff. It’s his 15th straight season as offensive line coach, and Alexander is also the team’s assistant head coach, promoted to that position in 2003 when Marvin Lewis took over as head coach.

"It has been important to me to have Paul as an advisor," said Lewis. "When I first came here, his knowledge of our team gave me a source for some very important direction. Since then, he has helped me in a lot of areas off and on the field. And as the record shows, he has continued to do an excellent job with our line."

Twice during the past four years, the Bengals have set new franchise records for fewest sacks allowed. Opponents managed only 17 sacks in 2007, easily topping the record low of 21 that had been established just two years before, during the team’s 2005 AFC North title season.

Last season was a tough one overall for the Cincinnati offense, which struggled to recover from the loss of Pro Bowl QB Carson Palmer for 12 games due to injury. But the club rallied to finish the season on a three-game win streak, and instrumental in the strong finish was Alexander’s coaching of a line that was markedly short of experience.

Due to injuries, the Bengals played their last six games with rookie Anthony Collins at LT and first-year player Nate Livings at LG. Collins had seen action for only a handful of plays when he was called on to start, and Livings had seen no game action at all. But the Bengals averaged 167 rushing yards over the final three games while allowing only three sacks. In the season finale against Kansas City, when Cincinnati rushed for a season-high 204 yards, another player with virtually no experience was in the starting lineup, as first-year player Dennis Roland was pressed into service due to injuries at the RT spot.

Alexander’s line has helped Palmer post offensive numbers that qualify him as one of the NFL’s elite quarterbacks. Over the four years 2004-07, Palmer became the fifth-fastest player in NFL history (59 games) to reach the 100 mark in TD passes. Palmer has also set, and in some cases has re-set, club season records for completions, passing yards, TD passes and passer rating.

And over 2004-06, RB Rudi Johnson’s 4221 rushing yards were the most by any Bengal in a three-season span.

On Oct. 22, 2000, Alexander’s Bengals line shared the glory of a 278-yard rushing game by RB Corey Dillon vs. Denver. It was an NFL record at the time, and it still stands third in league annals entering the 2009 season. The Bengals 407 total rushing yards in that game ranks as the fifth-highest single-game total in NFL history, and as the most rushing yards in 58 years. The last team to top it was the New York Giants, who gained 423 against Baltimore in 1950.

Alexander began his NFL coaching career in 1992 as tight ends coach of the N.Y. Jets, under head coach Bruce Coslet. When Coslet moved to Cincinnati as offensive coordinator in 1994, Alexander joined him, in the role of Bengals tight ends coach.

But Alexander’s first love in football was always the offensive line. He was afforded the chance to take over that job for the Bengals in 1995, and has held it ever since.

The Packers have guys who should be hitting their prime. Unfortunately, they don't look any different than when they were drafted. But heck, they tapped a guy to be the O-line coach who was coaching high school just three seasons earlier, and, more importantly, who hasn't shown success after being given the job. His audition should be done.

[Patler]

Well if we can't count them as improving then your "10" is a bit off as well

What about Wells; he seems to have improved some and is about as much as we could expect from a 6th/7th round draft pick.

My 10 are draft picks brought in by TT, given to Campen to make into players. Wells isn't one of those, but he became a starter under this regime. Has he improved? I think JSO rated him #4 in the NFC North, didn't they? GBPG gave him a "B-" for the year, so we will give him a wee bit of credit for that!

So is Campen sort of 1 for 11 on developing players?

Tom Lovat under Holmgren and Larry Beightol under Sherman had players who became better and better with experience. Lovat and Beightol took low round picks and made them into Pro-Bowl players and near Pro-Bowl players. They weathered the storms when injuries took out starters because the back-ups were ready to step in.

Campen can't even get the starters playing well until halfway through the seasons, and backups look lost if he is forced to play them. He has done nothing with Colledge, even though he has started for 4 years. Moll and Coston had lots of starts, but never became players. Spitz was steady and unspectacular as a first year starter, and was the same in 2008.

Meredith will be an interesting case study. All the reporters covering camp pegged him for practice squad at best, saying he was no where near ready to play in a game. Yet Buffalo gets him for a couple weeks, has to start him for injuries and he didn't seem to embarrass himself. Meredith commented in an interview after his start how well the staff prepared him and how confident he felt after being there just a short time. He didn't come right out and say it, but the implication was that he didn't get that in GB.

[pbmax]

I am not sure that Adam Timmerman and Mark Tauscher represent a triumph of coaching a late round pick to greatness rather than proof that players can overcome physical deficiencies (compared to higher round picks) and perform at a high level. Each started their first year, so the amount of coaching they got at the pro level was limited to offseason and 1 training camp.

I think the better success stories for those coaches were mid round picks that took time to develop into solid starters. Rivera, Flanagan, Andruzzi (for another team) and Wahle (I can never remember if he was 1st or second round in the supplemental). I might be missing some names, so feel free to add to the list.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

College had a poor season. No doubt. Ty never thought College was a LT..and doesn't hold his play at LT against him. Ty likes college, doesn't love him. Ty thinks we can win with him.

College was darn good in 08. Can he bounce back? Ty says yes.

KY....talking about College development is bs. College was bounced around early in his career. That retards development. And, your statements would look dumb after 08.

Talking about the Bengals is foolish. 1) As previously stated..that is the exception that proves the rule. 2) Their line wasn't any better than ours when we were healthy. 3) Much better line coach. 4) 1 and done..just like us. 5) The bengals, like the pack are a team. Looking at specific areas isn't right. How long have the bengals been trying to produce under Marvin. How long were they looking for a rb. Every team has weaknesses. To even talk about the Bengals and pointing to their success in building a line is hilarious..talk about seeing the tree and missing the forest. LOL

[KYPack]

Anything you say, Ty.

But I stick by my post.

I'm talking about that personnel group. The fact is, the Bengals developed a first rate Oline at light speed while we have dicked aroung for four years and haven't dug up many effective players with our approach. I don't think it is as sound as what some other teams do.

We aren't the only team to screw that up. Philly signed former Bengal RT Stacey Andrews for '09. The Bengali's had groomed him for a number of seasons and started him in '08. He couldn't hack the program and they went another way. Philly signed Andrews to a big contract and he didn't play a lick for them. He's the classic "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" guy. Thank God we didn't get him. So other teams struggle.

What I'm saying is there are guys on the NFL scrap heap that can help you. We need to look at that talent stream as well as the kids we always get.

It's "Colledge", BTW.

KYPack, your reporter out here in the trees.