Wolf and Thompson - JSO Article

[falco]

I was big on Will Weatherspoon (loved that guy) and Chris Hope long ago.

I can't remember what either of these guys got signed for; seems like both got big contracts early on in FA. However, I think both probably would have contributed to the team.

[ThunderDan]

So when RG says He's CERTAIN 3 times in a paragraph he isn't CERTAIN?

That makes no sense.

I may only be "Australian" and my grammar skills might be inferior to yours, but I think my reading comprehension might grade out slightly higher than yours in this instance. I suggest you re-read the correct interpretation I provided.

Your emotional investment in calling out RG is making you blind.

Huh, and your emotional investment of backing RG on every argument is making you blind.

.

Actually this seems to be an extreme exaggeration; I don't recall too many times Tarlem backing Retailguy. I think most on here would consider Tarlem to be one of the more level headed guys in this joint that see both sides of each argument.

How about here and in the DC fan club thread in the last little bit?

Sure it's an exaggeration, there is also truth to it.

[ThunderDan]

I said RG had no idea what goes on at the GB HQ just like I don't. Isn't that a fact? Yes, it is a fact that RG pointed out himself as a matter-of-fact.

Just like I stated what Thomas's and Taylor's contracts were. But somehow that is a personal attack also.

I read his post just fine, thank you for your concern about my reading comprehension. Then, you admit it was your intention to attack him and not respond to the content of his post, because anybody with fundamental comprehension skills knows the grammatical difference between the statements "I know for certain" and I am certain".

Tarlam!-

When someone says, "I don't know for certain" and then they precedes to give a 6 paragraph dissertation on TT's history and "thought" process on his use of free agency you can pretty much disregard the "I don't know for certain" part.

I was calling RG out on his BS. He gave numerous multi-paragraph posts in this thread on about what has happened in GB and then says he isn't sure. I guess this summer in the Packer prediction thread I am going to say, "I am not certain but I think the Pack will go 12-4." That way if the Packers tank I can use that silly excuse that I wasn't stating a certainty. Half of the fun of these message boards is making bold predictions and assertions and seeing if you are correct or not. Being able to talk a little trash or eat a little humble pie.

If he isn't certain why go after me, Pugger and Fritz all in the same thread? Obviously some cord was struck because RG gave us all the I'm taking my ball and going home speech.

RG states, "I tried to have this discussion several days ago. It didn't work. It won't work this time, as it is more fun to ridicule me personally and bash me for presenting a "name free agent" than it is to consider the substance of what I am trying to say."

He also states, " You found my original post. You also then should have found the other posts discussing why I'm a complete lunatic and can't think clearly."

No one was calling RG a lunatic, I pointed out Thomas's and Taylor's salary and someone else mention that Thomas was "lazy" and cut by the Pats. No one ridiculed RG. Fritz asked for RG to expand his postion and who he thought could help the team.

I am done with this part of the thread, if we want to get back to the original discussion I am happy to continue.

[Pugger]

He jumped all over me because I asked about a particular player and it really caught me off guard. He called me out thinking I was directing my comment about folks thinking a name FA has to be better than what's on our roster at him. He told me to get off my high horse and try to think outside of my small brain. This type of behavor isn't endearing by any stretch. I may have snapped at him but it was because I wasn't expecting to be chastised like that for bringing up a player for discussion.

Pugger, you're obviously insulted, but he rightly called you out. Your post was clearly directed at his post where he suggested names only for you to ridicule his suggestion. He provided clear and damning evidence when you asked him to and you responded petulantly.

Then, he let you have it. He torched you, because your conduct was hypocritical.

Now, was he too heavy handed? Yeah, no doubt; a poster like Patler would have made you look ridiculous in a much more gentlemanly manner. Either way, you looked ridiculous, because RG's critism was backed up with cold, hard quotes that, no matter how hard you try, you can't deny came from you.

So, while the possie to lynch RG is forming, don't count me in. He's one of the more polarizing personalities around here for sure, but recently, I haven't seen too much evidence to conclude he initiates personal attacks. Don't expect him to back down once someone levies one against him, though. RG aint no Patler.

I wasn't even thinking of RG when I said it. This isn't the only forum I participate in and I guess I was tired of folks on countless forums clamoring for every FA out there that has a recognizable name thinking these guys just have to be better than the guys already on thePackers' roster and often these FAs are FAs for a reason. I admit I messed up here and I don't mind if someone calls me out if I screw up but I do mind if they lay into me like that. Unfortunately for some men chivalry is indeed dead.

[Tarlam!]

Wow, for someone who says he isn't inside 1265 Lombardi, you certainly know for certain what happens there.

You have no clue what really happens there and neither do I.

Dan, you are entitled to be "done with this part of the thread". I am pretty much as well. But I want to help the members understand my motives here.

I don't think I took issue with any part of your post except what I have have quoted here. You make assumptions based on what you WANT to read and not what was actually written. And, this was a peronal attack. You admit as much when you write what RG actaully wrote should be disregarded and your interpretation is valid, never mind what was actually written. I don't think that's fair and I'm sure you yourself would cry foul if your actual words were twisted out of context.

Bretsky is accurate; I will defend any poster if the rebuffs get personal. This board doesn't need that shit, if you ask me. It's true, I have a soft spot in my heart for RG, but if he were attacking anybody initially, I'd be the first to step in and call him on it.

Note to Pugger: It's understandable for you to lose your temper, but don't you think it's reasonable for another poster to do the same if he feels he's being unjustly singled out? Or, when an argument against his content appears, then the same content is used to make a similar argument as he made?

I can see both sides, but I remain by my reasoning for entering this part of the discussion. I feel RG was dealt with, not RG's content in both cases where I backed him.

[Fritz]

Per NFP the Jets are expected to be interested in Thomas. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...us-Thomas.html

It is very difficult for the average fan to get any real insight into what NFL execs really think of specific players. There are plenty of rumors floating around about how Thomas's refusal to fit into the Patriots system destroyed his reputation around the league. This article (by Aaron Wilson) seems to suggest that Thomas simply might not have been a good fit for Belichick's system becuase BB wanted to pigeon hole him in one position whereas (according to Ryan) Thomas's greatest strength is his versalitility and his ability to creat confusion.

Let's imagine for a minute that the reports about Thomas's crappy attitude are overblown and that it was really just a bad fit with the Pats. Put Thomas on a different team that has a solid base and he'll do fine. In that scenario, Ryan on Adalius Thomas does sound a bit like the C Woodson we saw last year, and that might make you think that he's worth taking a shot at. But for a defense that already has that element of unpredictability in Woodson do you really need another one? Or is installing a reliable, assignment sure guy to play LOLB more important than finding a second guy who (according to Ryan, who knows him better than anyone) needs to be given free reign in order to maximize his potential?

Thank you, Hoosier. This brings up a point I had not thought about - styles of play. If Thomas is a freelancer, does that mean he would have more leeway in deciding whether to attack/cover? If so, would that mean that CMIII would have less leeway on the other side to make those decisions? I don't know enough about how defense works to know if players get to make those kind of decisions or if their roles are set.

It's an interesting question. As is the question of whether Thomas's decreasing numbers the last few years is a result of his age or not being used to his full potential. Would he fit into Capers's system? Is he in pretty good shape?

Good questions. Along with the question of what Brad Jones had been doing this offseason as far as getting stronger.

Sometimes this lack of offseason signings makes me wonder if somebody is in love with Jones or Obiozor.

[hoosier]

Per NFP the Jets are expected to be interested in Thomas. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...us-Thomas.html

It is very difficult for the average fan to get any real insight into what NFL execs really think of specific players. There are plenty of rumors floating around about how Thomas's refusal to fit into the Patriots system destroyed his reputation around the league. This article (by Aaron Wilson) seems to suggest that Thomas simply might not have been a good fit for Belichick's system becuase BB wanted to pigeon hole him in one position whereas (according to Ryan) Thomas's greatest strength is his versalitility and his ability to creat confusion.

Let's imagine for a minute that the reports about Thomas's crappy attitude are overblown and that it was really just a bad fit with the Pats. Put Thomas on a different team that has a solid base and he'll do fine. In that scenario, Ryan on Adalius Thomas does sound a bit like the C Woodson we saw last year, and that might make you think that he's worth taking a shot at. But for a defense that already has that element of unpredictability in Woodson do you really need another one? Or is installing a reliable, assignment sure guy to play LOLB more important than finding a second guy who (according to Ryan, who knows him better than anyone) needs to be given free reign in order to maximize his potential?

Thank you, Hoosier. This brings up a point I had not thought about - styles of play. If Thomas is a freelancer, does that mean he would have more leeway in deciding whether to attack/cover? If so, would that mean that CMIII would have less leeway on the other side to make those decisions? I don't know enough about how defense works to know if players get to make those kind of decisions or if their roles are set.

It's an interesting question. As is the question of whether Thomas's decreasing numbers the last few years is a result of his age or not being used to his full potential. Would he fit into Capers's system? Is he in pretty good shape?

Good questions. Along with the question of what Brad Jones had been doing this offseason as far as getting stronger.

Sometimes this lack of offseason signings makes me wonder if somebody is in love with Jones or Obiozor.

I am guessing that TT is confident that Jones is already a good fit for the system and that he will continue to develop. He may never become a star or even the pass rush threat/complement to CMIII that everyone is hoping for, but it sounds like the Packers think they can get that from a variety of places. If the strength of Capers's scheme is creating unpredictability (not knowing where the pressure is coming from) maybe having a second pass rushing specialist at LOLB is not as important as we think.

I also suspect that TT's conservative nature would cause him to shy away from someone like Thomas who has not always shown himself to be a team-oriented player. Woodson had a similar reputation: very talented but with questions about motivation and selfishness. But TT pursued Woodson at a time when the Packers were rebuilding. Now they are on the cusp of being one of the elite teams in the league, and TT may be inclined to play things more carefully to avoid mucking up a good thing. I think if Capers were familiar with Thomas the way Ryan is and felt he still had something to offer, it would easier to imagine TT pursuing him.

[Fritz]

Per NFP the Jets are expected to be interested in Thomas. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...us-Thomas.html

It is very difficult for the average fan to get any real insight into what NFL execs really think of specific players. There are plenty of rumors floating around about how Thomas's refusal to fit into the Patriots system destroyed his reputation around the league. This article (by Aaron Wilson) seems to suggest that Thomas simply might not have been a good fit for Belichick's system becuase BB wanted to pigeon hole him in one position whereas (according to Ryan) Thomas's greatest strength is his versalitility and his ability to creat confusion.

Let's imagine for a minute that the reports about Thomas's crappy attitude are overblown and that it was really just a bad fit with the Pats. Put Thomas on a different team that has a solid base and he'll do fine. In that scenario, Ryan on Adalius Thomas does sound a bit like the C Woodson we saw last year, and that might make you think that he's worth taking a shot at. But for a defense that already has that element of unpredictability in Woodson do you really need another one? Or is installing a reliable, assignment sure guy to play LOLB more important than finding a second guy who (according to Ryan, who knows him better than anyone) needs to be given free reign in order to maximize his potential?

Thank you, Hoosier. This brings up a point I had not thought about - styles of play. If Thomas is a freelancer, does that mean he would have more leeway in deciding whether to attack/cover? If so, would that mean that CMIII would have less leeway on the other side to make those decisions? I don't know enough about how defense works to know if players get to make those kind of decisions or if their roles are set.

It's an interesting question. As is the question of whether Thomas's decreasing numbers the last few years is a result of his age or not being used to his full potential. Would he fit into Capers's system? Is he in pretty good shape?

Good questions. Along with the question of what Brad Jones had been doing this offseason as far as getting stronger.

Sometimes this lack of offseason signings makes me wonder if somebody is in love with Jones or Obiozor.

I am guessing that TT is confident that Jones is already a good fit for the system and that he will continue to develop. He may never become a star or even the pass rush threat/complement to CMIII that everyone is hoping for, but it sounds like the Packers think they can get that from a variety of places. If the strength of Capers's scheme is creating unpredictability (not knowing where the pressure is coming from) maybe having a second pass rushing specialist at LOLB is not as important as we think.

I also suspect that TT's conservative nature would cause him to shy away from someone like Thomas who has not always shown himself to be a team-oriented player. Woodson had a similar reputation: very talented but with questions about motivation and selfishness. But TT pursued Woodson at a time when the Packers were rebuilding. Now they are on the cusp of being one of the elite teams in the league, and TT may be inclined to play things more carefully to avoid mucking up a good thing. I think if Capers were familiar with Thomas the way Ryan is and felt he still had something to offer, it would easier to imagine TT pursuing him.

Hoosier, your last comment (which I put into boldface) is a good one - and a point I hadn't thought of. Maybe it's a lack of familiarity as much as anything.

I also wanted to post some comments I found from someone who supports the idea of signing Thomas. I find them fairly convincing arguments and I'm thinking now - as the comments below suggest - that IF Thomas is willing to be a team guy and be a willing backup/mentor if he can't beat out Jones, and IF Poppinga's special teams play is replaceable, then signing Thomas might be a good move.

So - here are the comments:

"Thomas is 32, probably has 3 good years left. He is 6'2" and 270. Can play inside linebacker, outside linebacker, and defensive end. Has played his entire career in a 3-4. two probowls with the Ravens, would have had more if he stayed, I think.

Rex Ryan says that his biggest asset is his versatility all over the field causing matchup problems. With CMIII, and Woodson also creating matchup problems this could be an interesting package.

Makes Poppinga expendable, and probably makes a low level inside linebacker backup expendable too.

It makes no sense to me that if the guy is that versatile he couldn't play the LOLB position. No need to move CMIII.

You can read his Bio at: http://www.patriots.com/team/index.c...rbio&bio=30839

Again, I think he is better than every linebacker we have except for: CMII, Hawk & Barnett. Today, he is better than Jones, but Jones has better upside, and could benefit from a veteran presense if Thomas is willing to teach."

Pretty interesting and thoughtful stuff.

[Pugger]

Wow, for someone who says he isn't inside 1265 Lombardi, you certainly know for certain what happens there.

You have no clue what really happens there and neither do I.

Dan, you are entitled to be "done with this part of the thread". I am pretty much as well. But I want to help the members understand my motives here.

I don't think I took issue with any part of your post except what I have have quoted here. You make assumptions based on what you WANT to read and not what was actually written. And, this was a peronal attack. You admit as much when you write what RG actaully wrote should be disregarded and your interpretation is valid, never mind what was actually written. I don't think that's fair and I'm sure you yourself would cry foul if your actual words were twisted out of context.

Bretsky is accurate; I will defend any poster if the rebuffs get personal. This board doesn't need that shit, if you ask me. It's true, I have a soft spot in my heart for RG, but if he were attacking anybody initially, I'd be the first to step in and call him on it.

Note to Pugger: It's understandable for you to lose your temper, but don't you think it's reasonable for another poster to do the same if he feels he's being unjustly singled out? Or, when an argument against his content appears, then the same content is used to make a similar argument as he made?

I can see both sides, but I remain by my reasoning for entering this part of the discussion. I feel RG was dealt with, not RG's content in both cases where I backed him.

There is nothing wrong with him feeling I was singling him out. That wasn't my intent and for that I am sorry. But I lost my temper after he questioned my intelligence in a post dripping with sacrasm. We can disagree without being disagreeable. He can call me out if I mess up without infering that I'm a dumb ass.

[Tarlam!]

We can disagree without being disagreeable. He can call me out if I mess up without infering that I'm a dumb ass.

No question about it and I'm sorry for both of you that it escalated the way it did. I wouldn't take it to heart and I certainly wouldn't want you to hold a grudge. I'm sure RG isn't holding one,

I don't think anyone here seriously questions your intelligence, Pugger. Tempers get frayed on these boards.

You post on many other boards, so you know how vulgar it is out there. Packer Rats is a haven of well mannered posters by most comparisons.

[sharpe1027]

Hoosier, your last comment (which I put into boldface) is a good one - and a point I hadn't thought of. Maybe it's a lack of familiarity as much as anything.

I also wanted to post some comments I found from someone who supports the idea of signing Thomas. I find them fairly convincing arguments and I'm thinking now - as the comments below suggest - that IF Thomas is willing to be a team guy and be a willing backup/mentor if he can't beat out Jones, and IF Poppinga's special teams play is replaceable, then signing Thomas might be a good move.

So - here are the comments:

"Thomas is 32, probably has 3 good years left. He is 6'2" and 270. Can play inside linebacker, outside linebacker, and defensive end. Has played his entire career in a 3-4. two probowls with the Ravens, would have had more if he stayed, I think.

Rex Ryan says that his biggest asset is his versatility all over the field causing matchup problems. With CMIII, and Woodson also creating matchup problems this could be an interesting package.

Makes Poppinga expendable, and probably makes a low level inside linebacker backup expendable too.

It makes no sense to me that if the guy is that versatile he couldn't play the LOLB position. No need to move CMIII.

You can read his Bio at: http://www.patriots.com/team/index.c...rbio&bio=30839

Again, I think he is better than every linebacker we have except for: CMII, Hawk & Barnett. Today, he is better than Jones, but Jones has better upside, and could benefit from a veteran presense if Thomas is willing to teach."

Pretty interesting and thoughtful stuff.

So, the real question is whether or not it is worth it to spend a significant amount of money for a guy that is a slight upgrade on the upper end and would be an improvement on depth on the lower end.

On one hand, they have some room to spend money.

On the other hand, going after a guy that might not start in FA and paying him significantly more than you pay other starters would give ammunition for players wanting extensions/contract renegotiated.

[Upnorth]

From what I have seen over the last 5 years of free agency the value of free agency can be found in the "mid-level" players. Superstar free agents are hit and miss, but there have been some FA's who were projected as just average / depth who have turned into something special. An added benifit to this is when the average player tanks it hurts a lot less as well.

[RashanGary]

From what I have seen over the last 5 years of free agency the value of free agency can be found in the "mid-level" players. Superstar free agents are hit and miss, but there have been some FA's who were projected as just average / depth who have turned into something special. An added benifit to this is when the average player tanks it hurts a lot less as well.

NE has done well at this. They've gotten some older players who want a ring and some darn solid mid-level FA's that played better with NE than they had with their previous teams.

They've lost that championship luster. Now those players are getting spread around more. With the Packers knocking on the doorstep of elite, maybe they can cash in on some of that.

Also, if teams start to view the Packers as a dominate football team, we might get more biters than we had in the past from regular FA's, not just older ones. There are a lot of players who care about a championship.