Francois penalty - poor coaching

[Tarlam!]

Not if I'm in the jury. I award the Packers a compensatory 1st Round pick as damages and demote Ed's crew for 4 games to the UFL.

add one swift kick to the genitals

Will you stop turning every thread into a Favre attack???

[LP]

I don't care if the rule is a yard, two yards or 10 yards. If the officials look to see if the player "overlaps" a lineman, teach the player to NOT overlap a lineman. If your lineman line up further off the LOS than normal, you as a coach MUST point it out to the officials.

Bullshit.

Officials have to make LOS calls on every play. That's where the ball is not where players line up. If said officials can't figure this out on their own, and must have it pointed out to them, then they are incompetent and should be fired. If they can get calls correct (the vast majority of the time) at full speed, there should be no reason to get a pre-snap call right. Yeah, he was close, but as others have said, if it's that close why call it?

[bobblehead]

reminds me of the intentional grounding in the end zone call. AR had a reciever in the vicinity, but the official was sure he didn't "know he was there" and simply was throwing the ball away.

Yea, the picture could be misleading. JS could have posted a picture before francois moved forward (why on earth would they do that?), but I doubt it. The rule says one yard, no way you can convince me that was a clear enough violation. Was it 35 inches? Possibly at some point, but it seems like a horseshit call. Did it cost us the game? Who knows, but it certainly didn't help us win it.

[sharpe1027]

I don't care if the rule is a yard, two yards or 10 yards. If the officials look to see if the player "overlaps" a lineman, teach the player to NOT overlap a lineman. If your lineman line up further off the LOS than normal, you as a coach MUST point it out to the officials.

Maybe, but who is to say that explanation about "overlap" wasn't made up after-the-fact as an excuse for a possible blown call? Has there been any clarification for how or when this overlap test began to be used?

It seems a kinda ridiculous standard since a DL can often lineup a good half yard off the ball and are usually more than three feet tall anyway.

[Patler]

I don't care if the rule is a yard, two yards or 10 yards. If the officials look to see if the player "overlaps" a lineman, teach the player to NOT overlap a lineman. If your lineman line up further off the LOS than normal, you as a coach MUST point it out to the officials.

Bullshit.

Officials have to make LOS calls on every play. That's where the ball is not where players line up. If said officials can't figure this out on their own, and must have it pointed out to them, then they are incompetent and should be fired. If they can get calls correct (the vast majority of the time) at full speed, there should be no reason to get a pre-snap call right. Yeah, he was close, but as others have said, if it's that close why call it?

Officials use crutches all the time. Sometimes it leads to correct calls, sometimes to bad ones. I don't have a problem with that if I know what the crutch is.

To be honest, as a coach I would rather have the official judge something definite ("does he overlap a lineman") than something indefinite ("is he a yard, yard and half, whatever, away from wherever the LOS is") I can teach a player not to overlap the player next to him. I can not teach a player to necessarily have the same judgment as an official as to how far a yard or yard and a half is in that situation.

I suspect Miami fans would say, "If its that close, why not call it?"

[Patler]

I don't care if the rule is a yard, two yards or 10 yards. If the officials look to see if the player "overlaps" a lineman, teach the player to NOT overlap a lineman. If your lineman line up further off the LOS than normal, you as a coach MUST point it out to the officials.

Maybe, but who is to say that explanation about "overlap" wasn't made up after-the-fact as an excuse for a possible blown call? Has there been any clarification for how or when this overlap test began to be used?

It seems a kinda ridiculous standard since a DL can often lineup a good half yard off the ball and are usually more than three feet tall anyway.

We don't know that, I agree. My point was IF that is the way officials interpret it, Slocum absolutely should know it and coach to it.

If Hochuli simply made up the explanation, he should be fired. Immediately.

Circumstances lead me to believe it is not made up however, because he isn't talkng in a vacuum after a game, and he knows that. He has been involved in enough controversy already in recent years. His comments and decisions will be reviewed, as will the call he made. If he made a mistake, lying about it would simply dig a deeper hole for himself, because the league will get his "explanation" too.

[sharpe1027]

We don't know that, I agree. My point was IF that is the way officials interpret it, Slocum absolutely should know it and coach to it.

If Hochuli simply made up the explanation, he should be fired. Immediately.

Circumstances lead me to believe it is not made up however, because he isn't talkng in a vacuum after a game, and he knows that. He has been involved in enough controversy already in recent years. His comments and decisions will be reviewed, as will the call he made. If he made a mistake, lying about it would simply dig a deeper hole for himself, because the league will get his "explanation" too.

There is no way to prove whether or not the "overlap" criteria was the criteria that the officials actually used (unless the officials themselves change their statements). IMO, the real question is whether or not the NFL officially condoned the "overlap" criteria before the game.

I the answer is "yes" and the coaches had a way to get/verify that information, then I agree with you.

[Jimx29]

I'm more concerned about the name. I have neighbors who go by Fran coyz, not Fran swa

[Pugger]

At the snap of the ball did Francois back away from the LOS? If my memory is correct then the center was not in any danger, was he? Maybe the league should look at this rule again and if a player moves away from the LOS then a penalty shouldn't be called. I'm gonna be out of town this week and won't have access to the NFL Network so I won't be able to see a replay of the game.

[mraynrand]

Personally, I think Slocum brought the picture to the press to try and save his job. He screwed up, and I think even the players realize it. The player did as told, and was put in a bad situation as a result. That is poor coaching, in my book.

What exactly was the player told? Do we know?

[Bossman641]

Yea, the picture could be misleading. JS could have posted a picture before francois moved forward (why on earth would they do that?), but I doubt it. The rule says one yard, no way you can convince me that was a clear enough violation. Was it 35 inches? Possibly at some point, but it seems like a horseshit call. Did it cost us the game? Who knows, but it certainly didn't help us win it.

This!!

The rule is a yard. From my POV, Francois was more than a yard from the snapper. Horseshit call.

[pbmax]

Personally, I think Slocum brought the picture to the press to try and save his job. He screwed up, and I think even the players realize it. The player did as told, and was put in a bad situation as a result. That is poor coaching, in my book.

That is a photo from the sideline, and the Packers are taking pictures from the endzone cameras. Where would he get the photo from on Sunday evening that JSO couldn't get it from? It doesn't look like a 35 mm picture, digital or otherwise. It looks like a TV picture.

[Patler]

Personally, I think Slocum brought the picture to the press to try and save his job. He screwed up, and I think even the players realize it. The player did as told, and was put in a bad situation as a result. That is poor coaching, in my book.

That is a photo from the sideline, and the Packers are taking pictures from the endzone cameras. Where would he get the photo from on Sunday evening that JSO couldn't get it from? It doesn't look like a 35 mm picture, digital or otherwise. It looks like a TV picture.

I was referring to the early post-game reporters comments that immediately after the game Slocum was walking around discussing the play with photos in hand. I thought that was a bit unusual. I didn't mean that the paper used his photos. Slocum just planted the seeds, they found their own.

[Patler]

Yea, the picture could be misleading. JS could have posted a picture before francois moved forward (why on earth would they do that?), but I doubt it. The rule says one yard, no way you can convince me that was a clear enough violation. Was it 35 inches? Possibly at some point, but it seems like a horseshit call. Did it cost us the game? Who knows, but it certainly didn't help us win it.

This!!

The rule is a yard. From my POV, Francois was more than a yard from the snapper. Horseshit call.

Just curious. How far off the line would you say that he is? I have no intention of arguing it, just want to know how you interpret it. (I explained my interpretation above.)

[Bossman641]

Yea, the picture could be misleading. JS could have posted a picture before francois moved forward (why on earth would they do that?), but I doubt it. The rule says one yard, no way you can convince me that was a clear enough violation. Was it 35 inches? Possibly at some point, but it seems like a horseshit call. Did it cost us the game? Who knows, but it certainly didn't help us win it.

This!!

The rule is a yard. From my POV, Francois was more than a yard from the snapper. Horseshit call.

Just curious. How far off the line would you say that he is? I have no intention of arguing it, just want to know how you interpret it. (I explained my interpretation above.)

Based on the picture I've seen, he appears to be just over a yard off the ball. I'm working with the same picture you are, so I saved it to my desktop and blew it up. The ball is just outside the 44 yard line. I drew a series of parallel lines down the hashmarks and 45 yard line. Obviously this isn't a perfect science because I just did it freehand. Francois's helmet is just to the left of the 43 yard line. His foot appears (it is blocked) to be right on the 43 yard line. Based on the viewpoint we have, the lines shouldn't be perfectly parallel, but doing it this way actually disfavors the Packers, as the lines become less vertical moving from right to left.

Now this could all be a moot point anyways, because we don't know when in time the picture was taken. He could have been moving forward, he also could have been moving backwards. The other thing I would like to see is what did Francois do at the snap. Does anyone know? Did he crush the center?