Francois penalty - poor coaching

[Pugger]

I thought he moved back away from the LOS after the snap....?

[Patler]

Bossman;

I'm not arguing your interpretation. In fact, I may even agree. But something else somewhat peculiar has now been uncovered. I finally got to watch my Tivo recording. There seems to be another big problem with the play:

I have been in question about where the ball was, because there is a big shadow on the picture. Plus, the center has already cocked the ball, which commonly includes tipping it up and even moving it back a little sometimes. Some centers actually move it quite a bit as they settle in. Even so, it is hard to see, but does appear to be outside the 44 a little.

HOWEVER, the ball is shown very clearly on 3rd down to actually be inside the 44 by the length of the football. Third down was the incomplete pass batted down by Bishop. So presumably on 4th down the line of scrimmage as they lined up should have been inside the 44. However, I agree that 4th appears to be outside the 44 at the snap. I can't believe the center would have moved it that far when "cocking" to snap, would he? Apparently the spots between 3rd and 4th downs were very different, by maybe as much as a half yard or so.

The NFL gamebook confirms that the ball was inside the 44, because the plays are listed as 3rd and 2 from the 43 and 4th and 2 from the 43. If the ball is any amount inside the 44, statistically it becomes the 43. If it is on the 44 or between the 44 and 45, it would be listed as the 44. Why the ball appears to be outside the 44 at the snap on 4th down is a bit mystifying.

Then, I concentrated on a replay shown after the penalty was called, One angle clearly shows Francois' front foot to be on the 43 yard line. If the LOS was the same as it was for third down, in no way was he more than a yard off. From where the ball appears to be on 4th, it could be a yard, a smidgeon more or less.

However, this presents a big problem. If one official saw Francois foot on the 43, and they looked at the yard marker, presumably inside the 44 from 3rd down, Francois would appear to be in violation. Could he have been the victim of a poor ball placement for 4th down?

Oh, and Francois moved forward on the snap, briefly engaged the center very minimally, then slid over to engage another player.

[Bossman641]

Interesting find.

My main issue has been with the sentiment of "hey, why even have him that close to the ball, line him up 3 yards off the ball." It was 4th and 2 at the 42, prime position to go for it. He HAS to be near the line in case of a sneak.

[Patler]

Interesting find.

My main issue has been with the sentiment of "hey, why even have him that close to the ball, line him up 3 yards off the ball." It was 4th and 2 at the 42, prime position to go for it. He HAS to be near the line in case of a sneak.

If a player is in position to receive a direct snap, the rule that caught Francois is "voided". He can line up on the center I saw that happen last week.

[Bossman641]

Interesting find.

My main issue has been with the sentiment of "hey, why even have him that close to the ball, line him up 3 yards off the ball." It was 4th and 2 at the 42, prime position to go for it. He HAS to be near the line in case of a sneak.

If a player is in position to receive a direct snap, the rule that caught Francois is "voided". He can line up on the center I saw that happen last week.

Yes, I have heard that but it doesn't make a ton of sense to me. How does the league determine the upback is in position to receive a direct snap? Do you know?

He still could have received the snap from where he was standing at on this play. If I were running a fake point I obviously would want to disguise it. So now I would line up in a different formation, basically tipping my hand that it's a fake?

[mraynrand]

Good news: when you google "Francois" and "Packers" this thread is at the top

That being said.....


Robert Francois: Hapless victim of Bad Coaching, or Unfortunate Target of Hochuli Nitpicking?:



You make the Call!! WHAT DID FRANCOIS KNOW, AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT???

[mraynrand]

Bossman;

I'm not arguing your interpretation. In fact, I may even agree. But something else somewhat peculiar has now been uncovered. I finally got to watch my Tivo recording. There seems to be another big problem with the play:

I have been in question about where the ball was, because there is a big shadow on the picture. Plus, the center has already cocked the ball, which commonly includes tipping it up and even moving it back a little sometimes. Some centers actually move it quite a bit as they settle in. Even so, it is hard to see, but does appear to be outside the 44 a little.

HOWEVER, the ball is shown very clearly on 3rd down to actually be inside the 44 by the length of the football. Third down was the incomplete pass batted down by Bishop. So presumably on 4th down the line of scrimmage as they lined up should have been inside the 44. However, I agree that 4th appears to be outside the 44 at the snap. I can't believe the center would have moved it that far when "cocking" to snap, would he? Apparently the spots between 3rd and 4th downs were very different, by maybe as much as a half yard or so.

The NFL gamebook confirms that the ball was inside the 44, because the plays are listed as 3rd and 2 from the 43 and 4th and 2 from the 43. If the ball is any amount inside the 44, statistically it becomes the 43. If it is on the 44 or between the 44 and 45, it would be listed as the 44. Why the ball appears to be outside the 44 at the snap on 4th down is a bit mystifying.

Then, I concentrated on a replay shown after the penalty was called, One angle clearly shows Francois' front foot to be on the 43 yard line. If the LOS was the same as it was for third down, in no way was he more than a yard off. From where the ball appears to be on 4th, it could be a yard, a smidgeon more or less.

However, this presents a big problem. If one official saw Francois foot on the 43, and they looked at the yard marker, presumably inside the 44 from 3rd down, Francois would appear to be in violation. Could he have been the victim of a poor ball placement for 4th down?

Oh, and Francois moved forward on the snap, briefly engaged the center very minimally, then slid over to engage another player.

[pbmax]

Personally, I think Slocum brought the picture to the press to try and save his job. He screwed up, and I think even the players realize it. The player did as told, and was put in a bad situation as a result. That is poor coaching, in my book.

That is a photo from the sideline, and the Packers are taking pictures from the endzone cameras. Where would he get the photo from on Sunday evening that JSO couldn't get it from? It doesn't look like a 35 mm picture, digital or otherwise. It looks like a TV picture.

I was referring to the early post-game reporters comments that immediately after the game Slocum was walking around discussing the play with photos in hand. I thought that was a bit unusual. I didn't mean that the paper used his photos. Slocum just planted the seeds, they found their own.

OK. I did not see that report.

[Patler]

Bossman;

I'm not arguing your interpretation. In fact, I may even agree. But something else somewhat peculiar has now been uncovered. I finally got to watch my Tivo recording. There seems to be another big problem with the play:

I have been in question about where the ball was, because there is a big shadow on the picture. Plus, the center has already cocked the ball, which commonly includes tipping it up and even moving it back a little sometimes. Some centers actually move it quite a bit as they settle in. Even so, it is hard to see, but does appear to be outside the 44 a little.

HOWEVER, the ball is shown very clearly on 3rd down to actually be inside the 44 by the length of the football. Third down was the incomplete pass batted down by Bishop. So presumably on 4th down the line of scrimmage as they lined up should have been inside the 44. However, I agree that 4th appears to be outside the 44 at the snap. I can't believe the center would have moved it that far when "cocking" to snap, would he? Apparently the spots between 3rd and 4th downs were very different, by maybe as much as a half yard or so.

The NFL gamebook confirms that the ball was inside the 44, because the plays are listed as 3rd and 2 from the 43 and 4th and 2 from the 43. If the ball is any amount inside the 44, statistically it becomes the 43. If it is on the 44 or between the 44 and 45, it would be listed as the 44. Why the ball appears to be outside the 44 at the snap on 4th down is a bit mystifying.

Then, I concentrated on a replay shown after the penalty was called, One angle clearly shows Francois' front foot to be on the 43 yard line. If the LOS was the same as it was for third down, in no way was he more than a yard off. From where the ball appears to be on 4th, it could be a yard, a smidgeon more or less.

However, this presents a big problem. If one official saw Francois foot on the 43, and they looked at the yard marker, presumably inside the 44 from 3rd down, Francois would appear to be in violation. Could he have been the victim of a poor ball placement for 4th down?

Oh, and Francois moved forward on the snap, briefly engaged the center very minimally, then slid over to engage another player.

OK, I can take the hint.

[sharpe1027]

However, this presents a big problem. If one official saw Francois foot on the 43, and they looked at the yard marker, presumably inside the 44 from 3rd down, Francois would appear to be in violation. Could he have been the victim of a poor ball placement for 4th down?

Oh, and Francois moved forward on the snap, briefly engaged the center very minimally, then slid over to engage another player.

Maybe, maybe not, but that would imply that they actually look at the distance and not just for overlap with the DL...

[mraynrand]

Bossman;

I'm not arguing your interpretation. In fact, I may even agree. But something else somewhat peculiar has now been uncovered. I finally got to watch my Tivo recording. There seems to be another big problem with the play:

I have been in question about where the ball was, because there is a big shadow on the picture. Plus, the center has already cocked the ball, which commonly includes tipping it up and even moving it back a little sometimes. Some centers actually move it quite a bit as they settle in. Even so, it is hard to see, but does appear to be outside the 44 a little.

HOWEVER, the ball is shown very clearly on 3rd down to actually be inside the 44 by the length of the football. Third down was the incomplete pass batted down by Bishop. So presumably on 4th down the line of scrimmage as they lined up should have been inside the 44. However, I agree that 4th appears to be outside the 44 at the snap. I can't believe the center would have moved it that far when "cocking" to snap, would he? Apparently the spots between 3rd and 4th downs were very different, by maybe as much as a half yard or so.

The NFL gamebook confirms that the ball was inside the 44, because the plays are listed as 3rd and 2 from the 43 and 4th and 2 from the 43. If the ball is any amount inside the 44, statistically it becomes the 43. If it is on the 44 or between the 44 and 45, it would be listed as the 44. Why the ball appears to be outside the 44 at the snap on 4th down is a bit mystifying.

Then, I concentrated on a replay shown after the penalty was called, One angle clearly shows Francois' front foot to be on the 43 yard line. If the LOS was the same as it was for third down, in no way was he more than a yard off. From where the ball appears to be on 4th, it could be a yard, a smidgeon more or less.

However, this presents a big problem. If one official saw Francois foot on the 43, and they looked at the yard marker, presumably inside the 44 from 3rd down, Francois would appear to be in violation. Could he have been the victim of a poor ball placement for 4th down?

Oh, and Francois moved forward on the snap, briefly engaged the center very minimally, then slid over to engage another player.

OK, I can take the hint.

You're a good sport Patler. Sorry for being so obnoxious

[MichiganPackerFan]

To be safe, we should also instruct our offensive and defensive linemen to wait a five-count after the snap to make sure that an official can't use their subjective judgement to call for a fall start or off sides. Our corners should also NEVER touch the receiver, especially within five yards of the LOS to be safe. Also the defense should avoid ever touching the quarterback in order to avoid subjective roughing the passer calls. And we should line up two yards back when over the center to make sure a subjective "within one yard" call is not made.

Seriously, I think you coach to play within the rules and if the refs want to be asshats, there's not a whole lot you can do about it. There is NO accountability for officiating. Period.