McCarthy and "Close Games"

[bobblehead]

I agree with Waldo. Never saw any teams scheme for Kampman the way they scheme for Matthews

I did. A certain NO game a few years ago comes to mind where Kamp got 2 sacks in the first quarter and the team had to keep a TE in to double him the entire rest of the game. He was constantly double teamed.

[bobblehead]

Clay has 13 sacks, 3 turnovers caused, 4 passes defensed and a TD in 13.5 games as the main guy to block, and he's not even pass rushing all the time. Kampy's best year was 15.5 sacks in 16 games with 3 turnovers caused, no passes defensed and no TDs.

Clay also has as many 10+ sack seasons after 2 years as Kampy has in 9. The kid is outstanding.

He is outstanding. So was Kampman. This season I have seen many tackles stonewall Mathews. I never saw that with Kampman. They were different players. Clay is more explosive for sure. Kamp had a variety of moves and would NEVER get stonewalled. Even when a guy controlled him he would collapse the pocket (which was the scheme he played in. 15.5 sacks given that scheme was a monster year.)

As for passes defended and such, again, product of the scheme. Mathews benefits from moving around, surprising teams and keeping them off balance. Kamp lined up across from a tackle and beat him with no surprises. He also never had BJ Raji flushing the QB to him.

Don't get me wrong, when its said and done, I think Mathews will definatly have a better career. But to say Kamp was never anywhere near him after about 12 games as a starter....that is almost as foolish as proclaiming Ryan Grant as superior to Dickerson after 8 games.

PS...still waiting for Clay to get 16 sacks. He was spotted 9 this season. Again, not disputing your last point "the kid is outstanding." Just saying that getting all goofy over a player after a very short run is often wrong, and never smart.

[bobblehead]

, a lot of teams were only playing 7 in the box, defending the pass, daring the Packers to run. Not as though they feared the running of Grant, eh?

It was easy to do that early in the season since we would line up in shotgun, empty backfield, half the time.

[mraynrand]

It was easy to do that early in the season since we would line up in shotgun, empty backfield, half the time.

Except that I wasn't referring to empty backfield situations, since that makes no sense as the defense would know a run from a RB wasn't possible.

[mraynrand]

I did. A certain NO game a few years ago comes to mind where Kamp got 2 sacks in the first quarter and the team had to keep a TE in to double him the entire rest of the game. He was constantly double teamed.

This proves my point. The Saints didn't game plan at all for Kampman. They adjusted on the fly. I've observed multiple games where Matthews has clearly been double-teamed and schemed against from the first play on. Not so for Kampman.

[mraynrand]

They both hurt no doubt. I'm of the opinion that the loss of Finley hurts more. Although the pass attack has rebounded after a few games of adjustment quite nicely - better than I feared. Jennings has really stepped up. Losing Finley also hurts the running game though, as backers and safeties would have to pay a lot more attention to him when he's in there, which can be just enough to create seams when they are not as aggressive in run support.

I appreciate Gunakor's perspective (better play-action would certainly help the O) but I'm mostly on this side of the argument. Interesting 'chicken and egg' question with pass setting up run setting up pass controversy at the heart of it... To me though, the key will always be great players forcing other teams into situations they don't want. Having to game plan for Finley or Matthews will free up other to make plays...

[bobblehead]

This proves my point. The Saints didn't game plan at all for Kampman. They adjusted on the fly. I've observed multiple games where Matthews has clearly been double-teamed and schemed against from the first play on. Not so for Kampman.

YOur nitpicking. Teams certainly did gameplan for kampman in passing sets. To assert otherwise is crazy. That NO game came early in the 15.5 sack season if I recall, and teams started gameplanning for him the rest of the season.

[mraynrand]

YOur nitpicking. Teams certainly did gameplan for kampman in passing sets. To assert otherwise is crazy. That NO game came early in the 15.5 sack season if I recall, and teams started gameplanning for him the rest of the season.

I didn't see much of that. But, if I'm really bored, I'll go back and look to see how often he was doubled, chipped, etc. I still see Matthews as having far more impact than Kampman. I guess we'll just have to disagree.

[vince]

Just saying that getting all goofy over a player after a very short run is often wrong, and never smart.

I disagree with this. Of course early speculation is often wrong, but that's what GM's are paid to do and I appreciate people stepping out with their opinions. Being wrong about predicting the future based on what you see and your experiences is far different than being dumb.

I suspect Waldo would stand by his assertions. You can't deny that Matthews has absolutely elite skills and the potential to be nothing short of the best ever at his position. That's according to Kevin Greene, one of the all-time greats. Not sure you could ever say that about Kampman, who I'm a big fan of...

[bobblehead]

I disagree with this. Of course early speculation is often wrong, but that's what GM's are paid to do and I appreciate people stepping out with their opinions. Being wrong about predicting the future based on what you see and your experiences is far different than being dumb.

I suspect Waldo would stand by his assertions. You can't deny that Matthews has absolutely elite skills and the potential to be nothing short of the best ever at his position. Not sure you could ever say that about Kampman, who I'm a big fan of...

He can feel free to stand by his Mathews assertion, and will likely be right. He can stand by his dissing of Kampman and will never ever be right. When its all over Mathews will likely have a great career. A lot of things have kept kampman from maxing out his career, but to basically say he is a JAG the way Waldo did (many times) was just foolish.

Remember, Waldo often backed his arguments with brilliance like saying LT and Reggie White always lined up against the left tackle and beat the best....then had to backpeddle a lot. I'm just a person who believes in letting the jury decide before asserting things not yet proven, then basically being dismissive to anyone who disagrees.

I have said that I think Finley is as dominant as Gates when healthy. I would never be foolish enough to say he is as good of a player as Gates...not yet anyway. To say that Mathews IS TWICE THE PLAYER KAMPMAN EVER WAS is just asinine in my book.

[vince]

He can feel free to stand by his Mathews assertion, and will likely be right. He can stand by his dissing of Kampman and will never ever be right. When its all over Mathews will likely have a great career. A lot of things have kept kampman from maxing out his career, but to basically say he is a JAG the way Waldo did (many times) was just foolish.

Remember, Waldo often backed his arguments with brilliance like saying LT and Reggie White always lined up against the left tackle and beat the best....then had to backpeddle a lot. I'm just a person who believes in letting the jury decide before asserting things not yet proven, then basically being dismissive to anyone who disagrees.

I have said that I think Finley is as dominant as Gates when healthy. I would never be foolish enough to say he is as good of a player as Gates...not yet anyway. To say that Mathews IS TWICE THE PLAYER KAMPMAN EVER WAS is just asinine in my book.

Agree with all of that. I wasn't remembering his statements about Kampman. Now that you bring them up, I do recall them and would also disagree with them.

[bobblehead]

PS...he also said the same thing comparing Jared Allen to Kampman. They are very similar players. Similar stats when healthy. Allen has had the beneifit of playing with a better front 7 than Kampman did. He never had to switch to a 3-4. He has had a more consistent career overall, but again, in Waldo's view you shouldn't even mention Kampman with Allen.

Allen has been slightly better due to health and the teams he played on. He is by no means significantly better than Kampman.

[mraynrand]

PS...he also said the same thing comparing Jared Allen to Kampman. They are very similar players. Similar stats when healthy. Allen has had the beneifit of playing with a better front 7 than Kampman did. He never had to switch to a 3-4. He has had a more consistent career overall, but again, in Waldo's view you shouldn't even mention Kampman with Allen.

Allen has been slightly better due to health and the teams he played on. He is by no means significantly better than Kampman.

I think Allen is better than Kampman (Significantly, probably not). More explosive, quicker. Not a better technician. About the same slightly worse than Kamp against the run. But the factors around them that make their careers distinct can't be ignored. Clifton manhandled Allen at KC in 2007 at the height of Allen's career, but got schooled in the Dome (but was dinged up). Kampman is solid; Allen flashy and streaky. Kampman is a great guy, Allen is a tool. That counts for something too.

[get louder at lambeau]

He is outstanding. So was Kampman. This season I have seen many tackles stonewall Mathews. I never saw that with Kampman. They were different players. Clay is more explosive for sure. Kamp had a variety of moves and would NEVER get stonewalled. Even when a guy controlled him he would collapse the pocket (which was the scheme he played in. 15.5 sacks given that scheme was a monster year.)

As for passes defended and such, again, product of the scheme. Mathews benefits from moving around, surprising teams and keeping them off balance. Kamp lined up across from a tackle and beat him with no surprises. He also never had BJ Raji flushing the QB to him.

Don't get me wrong, when its said and done, I think Mathews will definatly have a better career. But to say Kamp was never anywhere near him after about 12 games as a starter....that is almost as foolish as proclaiming Ryan Grant as superior to Dickerson after 8 games.

PS...still waiting for Clay to get 16 sacks. He was spotted 9 this season. Again, not disputing your last point "the kid is outstanding." Just saying that getting all goofy over a player after a very short run is often wrong, and never smart.

Still waiting for Kampy to get 16 sacks too. Clay "was spotted 9"? Come on, now. He had 10 as a rook, and everyone was complaining that we didn't have any other pass rushers. Teams knew damn well what was coming, and they couldn't stop him.

"Never had B.J. Raji"? Kampy had KGB (6 sacks), Cullen Jenkins (6.5), and Corey Williams (7) out there with him in the season he got 15.5.

Let's not forget how good KGB was back in the day. He got 16.5 more sacks than Kampy in the same number of seasons. He kept a LOT of pressure off Kampy, and flushed a LOT of QBs into him.

Matthews has had guys like Erik Walden and Jarius Wynn rushing opposite him for much of the year, he missed a game and a half, he doesn't even rush the QB all the time, and he still has production that rivals Kampy's best year and is superior to Kampy's second best year.

I appreciate you keeping the memory of a great Packer alive, but you're just as biased as you are claiming Waldo to be, only in the other direction. I think it's fair to say that Clay right now is every bit the player Kampy was at his peak. Maybe not significantly better, but every bit as good.

[Smidgeon]

Still waiting for Kampy to get 16 sacks too. Clay "was spotted 9"? Come on, now. He had 10 as a rook, and everyone was complaining that we didn't have any other pass rushers. Teams knew damn well what was coming, and they couldn't stop him.

"Never had B.J. Raji"? Kampy had KGB (6 sacks), Cullen Jenkins (6.5), and Corey Williams (7) out there with him in the season he got 15.5.

Let's not forget how good KGB was back in the day. He got 16.5 more sacks than Kampy in the same number of seasons. He kept a LOT of pressure off Kampy, and flushed a LOT of QBs into him.

Matthews has had guys like Erik Walden and Jarius Wynn rushing opposite him for much of the year, he missed a game and a half, he doesn't even rush the QB all the time, and he still has production that rivals Kampy's best year and is superior to Kampy's second best year.

I appreciate you keeping the memory of a great Packer alive, but you're just as biased as you are claiming Waldo to be, only in the other direction. I think it's fair to say that Clay right now is every bit the player Kampy was at his peak. Maybe not significantly better, but every bit as good.

And Kampman and Matthews are different players. Kampman in coverage was not a sight anybody wanted to see. Kampman as a pass rusher and run defender on the left side of the line, however, that was okay with me. He definitely mastered that LDE spot.

But Matthews is a different type of players. Despite the fact that they were both primarly pass rush and edge setters in run-defense, they went about it in completely different ways.