Are we gritty enough?

[MadtownPacker]

You want to know who aint tough, that fat doughboy impersonator M3. A team is a reflection of it's HC and IMO that is exactly what the Packers are. Agreed that Clay and others are ruff and tumble dudes but the intimidation factor doesnt seems to be there throughout the team.

[Patler]

Finley is a bad ass. He was my favorite Packer until Mattews exploded early in the year when he was healthy.

TE's block in tight quarters and catch, so it's not like he's going to string together a highlight reel of big hits, but when he gets a chance, I think he's always looking to take someones head off.

I hope you are right, but I need to be convinced by Finley's play.
He was anything but a bad ass as a rookie. The guy looked scared to block and fought for no thrown balls. I gave him tremendous credit for seemingly changing his second season. But it is sometimes easy to act like a bad ass when things are going good, and 2009 went well for Finley. We'll see what happens next year battling back from a significant injury.

[th87]

Would you call the last Rodgers-led drive of the Atlanta game a "Jordan-like", gritty performance?

Another game that jumps out at me as "gritty" this year was the Chicago game. The TD pass to Finley inches above Urlacher's shoulder was as Jordan-esque as they come. Rodgers showed immense poise in that game and played the kind of short game that would seem to land him in the class of Brady as defined previously. It's too bad that Jones did not, because I had no question in my mind that #12 was going to march them down the field before that fumble.

I simply think of "gritty" in football as a characteristic of those guys who make big plays in big moments when they're needed, seemingly bending the game to their will--more along the lines of determination or Sisu, indomitable will. I choose to separate it from a person's general demeanor, so for me someone can be a real dick and still not be gritty. Likewise, they can be laid back in their media and day-to-day interactions a la Rodgers, but when the game is on the line they dig in and perform. Polamalu is a laid back guy off the field and not a dick but his play falls into that category that I consider gritty. Big Ben is gritty and a date raping jerk, etc.

I agree with the Sisu concept being part of the definition of gritty. And those performances you mentioned were great ones. He did exhibit signs of that will. However, he didn't have the Brady-Jordan relishing of it. Jordan got in the zone, yes. But he had an extra motivation to steal the soul of his opponent. He wasn't going to rest until he not only won, but that he thoroughly and utterly embarrassed his opponent. A General Sherman type thing, if you will. As Patler said, he is okay with his opponents feeling good afterwards, whereas Jordan would be happy if he got his defender to retire in tears.

[th87]

I hope you are right, but I need to be convinced by Finley's play.
He was anything but a bad ass as a rookie. The guy looked scared to block and fought for no thrown balls. I gave him tremendous credit for seemingly changing his second season. But it is sometimes easy to act like a bad ass when things are going good, and 2009 went well for Finley. We'll see what happens next year battling back from a significant injury.

Finley seems to have a little bit of the Jordan fire. Hopefully this stays focused on the field and not to contract disputes.

And regarding Starr, as that era predates me by 15 years, I defer to your expertise.

[Patler]

Finley seems to have a little bit of the Jordan fire. Hopefully this stays focused on the field and not to contract disputes.

And regarding Starr, as that era predates me by 15 years, I defer to your expertise.

Finley does seem like an interesting guy. Totally different attitude in year #2 vs. year #1. I truly hope it was signs of a man maturing and not just a temporary change. Returning from the injury, his contract year and possible changes in the offense will show us what his football personality really is. Last year he was the focus of the offense at times the second half and started out that way this year. I wonder if MM and AR have realized that they also need to keep the WRs involved more than what we saw early. Quarless might divert a few throws away from Finley in years to come, too. It looks that AR will have a lot of options. Hopefully Finley will see that as a good thing.

[Fritz]

But to reiterate my point - using Joe Kapp as an example - you can have a bunch of gritty guys on a team, but if they don't have talent, they're gonna lose.

A team needs guys who have both. Maybe that's the complaint - talent is there but not enough grit.

Maybe a Hines Ward type receiver, and a lineman who'll gouge a defender's eye at the bottom of the pile...maybe a couple guys like that would put this team over the top, if they had the talent to go with it.

[Patler]

But to reiterate my point - using Joe Kapp as an example - you can have a bunch of gritty guys on a team, but if they don't have talent, they're gonna lose.

A team needs guys who have both. Maybe that's the complaint - talent is there but not enough grit.

Maybe a Hines Ward type receiver, and a lineman who'll gouge a defender's eye at the bottom of the pile...maybe a couple guys like that would put this team over the top, if they had the talent to go with it.

I think everyone has acknowledged that you need talented players. You can even win just with that. I do think "grittiness" adds another dimension.

Joe Kapp might not be the best example for you. He was pretty darned successful. He is a member of the College Football HOF and the Canadian Football League HOF. He was a college All-American and took Berkely to the Rose Bowl. He won the Grey Cup and took the Vikings to the Super Bowl.

[MJZiggy]

I have a bit of a theory that grittiness also develops with a lot of time on one team and the ability to develop a little animosity toward other teams. Ok, so you've named several players. Ray Lewis is gritty, but look around him. I'll give you McGahee is intense, but are you really thinking that Joe Flacco is gritty? Ray Rice? Anquon Boldin has finesse more than grit imo. So I don't think they have any more grit than the Packers with Matthews, Barnett, and Bigby who may not have great talent, but loves to really hit. I guess that means I'm wondering exactly how many gritty players you have to have to be considered "gritty?"

[Patler]

I have a bit of a theory that grittiness also develops with a lot of time on one team and the ability to develop a little animosity toward other teams. Ok, so you've named several players. Ray Lewis is gritty, but look around him. I'll give you McGahee is intense, but are you really thinking that Joe Flacco is gritty? Ray Rice? Anquon Boldin has finesse more than grit imo. So I don't think they have any more grit than the Packers with Matthews, Barnett, and Bigby who may not have great talent, but loves to really hit. I guess that means I'm wondering exactly how many gritty players you have to have to be considered "gritty?"

Barnett? He sure doesn't fit my definition of gritty. He might be emotional, but not gritty.
In my opinion, an essential quality of "gritty" players is that they are very physical, delivering blows time after time. Barnett and Hawk lack that quality.

I sure can't sit here and judge a lot of teams, because I do not see them very often. However, I have seen a lot of Steeler games in recent weeks, and there is a noticeable difference to the typical Packer game. There is a physical intensity that I seldom see from the Packers, and you see it on offense, defense and special teams for the Steelers. A few weeks ago, Rodgers said the Packers are a finesse team offensively. I believe that is true. I think they are building a grittiness on defense with guys like Mathews, Raji and Bishop who will hit you with all they have whenever they can. I see little of that on offense or ST.

[MJZiggy]

Barnett? He sure doesn't fit my definition of gritty. He might be emotional, but not gritty.
In my opinion, an essential quality of "gritty" players is that they are very physical, delivering blows time after time. Barnett and Hawk lack that quality.

I sure can't sit here and judge a lot of teams, because I do not see them very often. However, I have seen a lot of Steeler games in recent weeks, and there is a noticeable difference to the typical Packer game. There is a physical intensity that I seldom see from the Packers, and you see it on offense, defense and special teams for the Steelers. A few weeks ago, Rodgers said the Packers are a finesse team offensively. I believe that is true. I think they are building a grittiness on defense with guys like Mathews, Raji and Bishop who will hit you with all they have whenever they can. I see little of that on offense or ST.

Then why criticize them for not being gritty on offense when that's not what they are trying to be? Do you have to be gritty to make the playoffs? I'd say the Ravens offense is more of a finesse offense, and they just made the playoffs for the third year in a row--and they beat the Steelers earlier this year.

[red]

Gritty=

[denverYooper]

Gritty=

Win

[esoxx]

The Packers dental plan was the worse in the league back then.

[RashanGary]

It looks like he's wearing some of those Favre flyless trousers.

[Patler]

Then why criticize them for not being gritty on offense when that's not what they are trying to be? Do you have to be gritty to make the playoffs? I'd say the Ravens offense is more of a finesse offense, and they just made the playoffs for the third year in a row--and they beat the Steelers earlier this year.

I think it helps if you do have grittiness. That is why I have commented on it. MM talks a tough game, but does not practice it offensively. I think you can emphasize finesse while also having a physical intensity when you need it. One of the most enjoyable hockey teams I ever was with did not play overly physical. They could pass circles around other opponents, and played that way most of the time. But, when other teams tried to play physical to take them off their finesse game, our boys would simple hit harder than they were hit, while continuing to pass.

I have no clue about the Ravens offense. I may have seen them once this year.

Over the years I believe the Colts have lacked grittiness. That may be a reason why they have had great records but only limited playoff success.