James Jones!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, if you are going to play the "coulda", "woulda", "shoulda" game to minimize the significance of his TD catch, you have to for his drop, too, and minimize the significance of it. It's not guaranteed that he would have scored even if he did catch it. He isn't the fastest player on the field. His drop also didn't have to result in 0 points. It came on first down too, but with 31 seconds left MM essentially packed it in for the half. He coulda/shoulda gone aggressively for the yards for a FG attempt, or taken another attempt deep for a TD. Instead, MM gave up.

If Jones TD is mnimized by what "coulda" happened, his drop is minimized by what "shoulda" happened after it.

It's a matter of opinion. My opinion is that there's no doubt he scores if he doesn't drop it. He may not be fast, but he's apparently faster than Samual--who he got behind and was outrunning.

The chances of us getting a FG with 31 seconds left at our own 34 into a stiff wind is about 1 in 20--even if McCarthy hadn't sat on the ball. The chances of us getting a FG sitting inside of the Eagles 10 is about 19 in 20.

[Patler]

It's a matter of opinion. My opinion is that there's no doubt he scores if he doesn't drop it. He may not be fast, but he's apparently faster than Samual--who he got behind and was outrunning.

The chances of us getting a FG with 31 seconds left at our own 34 into a stiff wind is about 1 in 20--even if McCarthy hadn't sat on the ball. The chances of us getting a FG sitting inside of the Eagles 10 is about 19 in 20. Sorry.

Argument, what argument? I didn't know we had "winners" and "losers" on this board. I thought it was simply people expressing their opinions.

Assuming that anything is certain or near certain to happen in an athletic competition is not well-founded in my opinion. Had Jones not caught the TD pass, Rodgers might have thrown an interception or the Packers might have lost a fumble. Both have happened to them this year when many expected them to get at least 3 points out of a drive. With the way the Packers were mishandling the ball in that game (4 fumbles, at least 2 drops, maybe as many as 4 drops) a fumble or a deflected interception would not have been surprising. Rodgers could have been sacked, and all of a sudden that "gimme" fieldgoal becomes much more of a challenge. Akers missed with the line of scrimmage being the 16, didn't he?. I think that was at the same end of the field, wasn't it? The Packers were at the 9, a sack or two could have put them at least that far out, or farther.

The chances were "1 in 20" of getting a fieldgoal with 31 seconds left after the Jones drop? Based on what data? What were the chances of getting a TD with 37 second left when Jones dropped the pass? Teams have driven a lot farther in 31 seconds, and GB still had a timeout, I believe.

For some fans, it seems that whatever positive thing Jones does is diminished, and his failures are magnified.
My point is simple, the drop was bad; but, the TD catch was a nice play by Jones on a semi-broken play and a very low throw. The TD catch was a very crucial play, putting them up by two scores.

[mraynrand]

MM made it pretty clear why they didn't report it, saying it was for "competitive reasons". If that's true, that there was a competitive impact, it would seem to be exactly the type of injury the NFL would want on the report.

Well, all injuries can affect competition and the NFL wants all injuries reported. But the NFL hardly cares or fines teams. That last line there is based on fact, not opinion. It's interesting that they chose to fine the Jets over the Favre 'injury;' interesting because of the appearance of lies, deceit and chicanery. I guess if the NFL thinks the Jones situation rises to that level, they will fine the Packers.

[mraynrand]

The chances were "1 in 20" of getting a fieldgoal with 31 seconds left after the Jones drop? Based on what data?

I thought it was simply people expressing their opinions.

you seem to have answered your own question.

[Patler]

Well, all injuries can affect competition and the NFL wants all injuries reported. But the NFL hardly cares or fines teams. That last line there is based on fact, not opinion. It's interesting that they chose to fine the Jets over the Favre 'injury;' interesting because of the appearance of lies, deceit and chicanery. I guess if the NFL thinks the Jones situation rises to that level, they will fine the Packers.

Agreed. I'm just concerned think it might have been a mistake for MM to mention it, even if he was trying to "protect" Jones in a way by giving the media an excuse for the drops. He implies that the injury might affect Jones' ability to catch, and admits not disclosing it for competitive reasons. Seems like a bit of a red flag, almost begging the NFL to look into it.

It is interesting to read what the coaches say about injury reporting. Belichek lists Brady almost every week, every year. Cowher admits to having called ankle injuries as knee injuries to protect the player while still giving accurate information about the players availability. Apparently he tried to stay with the same body extremity at least!

As with a lot of things from the league office, it is a bit of a mystery knowing what their reasoning is in handling these things.

[Patler]

you seem to have answered your own question.

I don't look at that as opinion, its data and either accurate or inaccurate.

[mraynrand]

I don't look at that as opinion, its data and either accurate or inaccurate.

I'll let harvy speak for himself on this one. But as for me, if I had used "1/20" off the cuff, it would be a guesstimate opinion. I'll let you dig up the stats on the frequency of successful FG attempts for teams with 37 seconds left in the first half, with one timeout, maybe 50 some odd yards to go, going into the wind and cold of a Divisional playoff game!

[Patler]

I'll let harvy speak for himself on this one. But as for me, if I had used "1/20" off the cuff, it would be a guesstimate opinion. I'll let you dig up the stats on the frequency of successful FG attempts for teams with 37 seconds left in the first half, with one timeout, maybe 50 some odd yards to go, going into the wind and cold of a Divisional playoff game!

Now if this was baseball, we could probably find it in an instant!

It never ceases to amaze me, the depth of statistical detail you can find in baseball. Things like :"Batting average of righthanded firstbaseman batting against lefthanded former Cy Young Award winners, on a 3-2 count in the 4th inning with runners on 1st and 3rd and the score tied in a night game played in April on a grass field in a domed stadium with the roof open ."

[mraynrand]

Now if this was baseball, we could probably find it in an instant!

It never ceases to amaze me, the depth of statistical detail you can find in baseball. Things like :"Batting average of righthanded firstbaseman batting against lefthanded former Cy Young Award winners, on a 3-2 count in the 4th inning with runners on 1st and 3rd and the score tied in a night game played in April on a grass field in a domed stadium with the roof open ."

Like those MNF stats that you never heard of before and never really think of again!

But you're right about baseball - better bring your stats to a discussion and bring 'em strong or go home. That's why football is so awesome - you can be a complete blowhard, and it's hard to get called on it!


P.S. The stats/facts stuff is a reason it's too bad Bigguns is gone - that guy knew his stuff - or at least he'd research it before posting

[mraynrand]

As with a lot of things from the league office, it is a bit of a mystery knowing what their reasoning is in handling these things.

This one seems pretty straightforward - if the NFL gets shown up in the press, they will nail you. I'm betting (see, can't help but gamble!) that no one gives a rat's ass about Jones' thumb except Packerrats and his grandma.

[Patler]

Like those MNF stats that you never heard of before and never really think of again!

But you're right about baseball - better bring your stats to a discussion and bring 'em strong or go home. That's why football is so awesome - you can be a complete blowhard, and it's hard to get called on it!


P.S. The stats/facts stuff is a reason it's too bad Bigguns is gone - that guy knew his stuff - or at least he'd research it before posting

Ya, I miss Bigguns for that, too. There is not much of a Brewer thread now.

Speaking of statistical detail, the one about Starks breaking the rookie rushing record in a playoff game for the Packers kind of ignores what Grant did. In his first season, Grant rushed for 201 yards against Seattle in the playoffs, but was a "first year player" not a "rookie" because he had been on the Giants practice squad and IR. He was never on a 53 man roster before that year, but wasn't a "rookie" for statistical purposes. If he had played arena football instead of being on their PS, I think he would have been considered a "rookie".

I guess it makes some sense, but it is also quibbling over details.

[Patler]

This one seems pretty straightforward - if the NFL gets shown up in the press, they will nail you. I'm betting (see, can't help but gamble!) that no one gives a rat's ass about Jones' thumb except Packerrats and his grandma.

What if it was Gregg Jennings' thumb?

[mraynrand]

Ya, I miss Bigguns for that, too. There is not much of a Brewer thread now.

Speaking of statistical detail, the one about Starks breaking the rookie rushing record in a playoff game for the Packers kind of ignores what Grant did. In his first season, Grant rushed for 201 yards against Seattle in the playoffs, but was a "first year player" not a "rookie" because he had been on the Giants practice squad and IR. He was never on a 53 man roster before that year, but wasn't a "rookie" for statistical purposes. If he had played arena football instead of being on their PS, I think he would have been considered a "rookie".

I guess it makes some sense, but it is also quibbling over details.

Grant was like a redshirt freshman. How does the NCAA handle that re: stats and records? (I don't know)

[sharpe1027]

For some fans, it seems that whatever positive thing Jones does is diminished, and his failures are magnified.
My point is simple, the drop was bad; but, the TD catch was a nice play by Jones on a semi-broken play and a very low throw. The TD catch was a very crucial play, putting them up by two scores.

And for some fans it is the opposite...

I said it once before, it is not so much the end result as the manner in which JJ messes up. When is the last time he laid out for a ball? He just looks like he doesn't make much effort. It doesn't mean he isn't still better than Jordy, but it sure is frustrating to watch.

[Patler]

I said it once before, it is not so much the end result as the manner in which JJ messes up. When is the last time he laid out for a ball? He just looks like he doesn't make much effort. It doesn't mean he isn't still better than Jordy, but it sure is frustrating to watch.

I have said it before, too, that the only one who you don't have to worry about effort from is Driver. That guy has no respect for is skinny little body!

I don't dispute the concern about Jones' effort at times.

Nelson's effort on the one long throw to him on Sunday was very weak. He is the biggest receiver the Packers have, and rather than fight above and through the defender to get at the ball, he sort of waived an arm at it and looked pleadingly at the official.

Jennings seems to run hot and cold. One time he fights hard for the ball, and another it seems like, "Oh well..., I'll catch the next one."