Sacks Down for Matthews

[bobblehead]

P.S. you build nice strawmen. Go back and read what I wrote. To summarize: I think Matthews is and will remain a more impactful player than Kampman was (and will ever be). I just didn't think Kampman was all that special. Pretty good DE, slightly less of a player than Allen. I could be premature about Matthews, but we'll have to wait and see. That's my view - probably not as extreme as making claims about cocksucking, but I'm sure you'll let me know about that.

If you want to pull individual plays out where a OLB or DE plays poorly, I can get you a whole catalog full of ineffective Kampman downs to match any plays from Matthews - if you want to go that route.

Look, again, I am the one making more reasonable claims. I think Mathews will, long term, have a better career than kamp, but to label Kamp "pretty good. Not all that special" is foolish. Over a 2 year span he had more sacks than anyone in the entire league. Mathews has not come close to that YET. I'm not building any strawman whatsoever. You pick a 4 game stretch to cite double teams. Obviously I have no way to go back and find a 4 game stretch where kamp was double teamed to compare. I also think this team has had more big leads so they can pin the ears back than '07.

I can't make my position any clearer. kampman was special. Likely not as special as clay, but the jury is still out. Its too bad he got stuck playing out of position and got injured in his prime.

[mraynrand]

Look, again, I am the one making more reasonable claims. I think Mathews will, long term, have a better career than kamp, but to label Kamp "pretty good. Not all that special" is foolish. Over a 2 year span he had more sacks than anyone in the entire league. Mathews has not come close to that YET. I'm not building any strawman whatsoever. You pick a 4 game stretch to cite double teams. Obviously I have no way to go back and find a 4 game stretch where kamp was double teamed to compare. I also think this team has had more big leads so they can pin the ears back than '07.

I can't make my position any clearer. kampman was special. Likely not as special as clay, but the jury is still out. Its too bad he got stuck playing out of position and got injured in his prime.

not all that special = pretty good, slightly less than Allen. Very special = people considering you for defensive player of the year. OK? Terms defined. Does that help?

[mraynrand]

Well, I don't understand how you can hype and defend both of these guys, and then say that essentially there was a plan but the players didn't execute. I don't happen to believe that's true. It sounds like a cop out to me.

So, why don't you give me your answer, because, "clearly", I got the only answer I'm getting out of Vince.

Answer your own question. Why didn't McCarthy coach 'em up?

[retailguy]

Answer your own question. Why didn't McCarthy coach 'em up?

I don't happen to think that was the issue.

I don't believe McCarthy had a great game plan for that particular game.

I don't believe Barbre was a good draft choice.

I don't believe that Colledge has had the best coaching, and I don't believe his attitude has helped with the coaching he has received.

I'm still waiting for your view.

[swede]

Geez, this thread reads like something from early March.
You ignorant bastards.

[vince]

I don't happen to think that was the issue.

I don't believe McCarthy had a great game plan for that particular game.

I don't believe Barbre was a good draft choice.

I don't believe that Colledge has had the best coaching, and I don't believe his attitude has helped with the coaching he has received.

I'm still waiting for your view.

Why this even needs to be answered is a mystery. It's the same premise that's been made already and ignored. With a Head Coach, GM, and player performance, you simply have to look at the body of work in order to make anything close to an objective assessment. Handpicking individual or a relatively small number of instances of a bad playcall, poorly prepared team, bad draft pick, etc. simply does not make any case whatsoever in terms of an overall assessment of the coach, GM or player.

I'll let you figure out the things it does make a case for.

[packerbacker1234]

Look, again, I am the one making more reasonable claims. I think Mathews will, long term, have a better career than kamp, but to label Kamp "pretty good. Not all that special" is foolish. Over a 2 year span he had more sacks than anyone in the entire league. Mathews has not come close to that YET. I'm not building any strawman whatsoever. You pick a 4 game stretch to cite double teams. Obviously I have no way to go back and find a 4 game stretch where kamp was double teamed to compare. I also think this team has had more big leads so they can pin the ears back than '07.

I can't make my position any clearer. kampman was special. Likely not as special as clay, but the jury is still out. Its too bad he got stuck playing out of position and got injured in his prime.

You need to also factor this: Cullen Jenkins, who has been oustanding this year even when he had the club on his hand, has been out 3 games.

This meant:

1. When we only rushed 3, it was always Raji, Picket, Matthews. You couldn't disguise Matthews as he was, essentially, considered the 3rd down linemen. In that situation, with those 3, Matthews is the most Dangerous to get to the QB, while Raji is the most dangerous to run against and Picket is more of a solid role player than a play maker - best used to open up things for Jenkings/raji.

2. Matthews hasn't been able to practice much, which is claimed to be a reason he hasn't been moving around. If you recall, when he was on his early tear, Matthews was coming from everywhere. Right, Left, stunts up the gut... last 4 games he has just been coming off the left side. This is in part because he hasn;t practiced, but also has to be in part that Jenkins isn't there. Matthews, in passing situations, can't just play that blitzing LB role - he is playing the role of a linemen.

Kampman was a great 4-3 DE. He was even having a good year this year until the injury. I will never question that Kampman was one of the premier pass rushing 4-3 DE's in the game. The question here is who saw more attention - and I think it's easy to say it's Matthews.

Why?

- Matthews has had to practically be a Linemen the last 3 games in a 3 linemen set.
- Kampman always had at least 3 other down linemen with him, plus maybe a blitzer.
- While Kampman was gameplanned for, like Jared ALlen is, like Peppers, blah blah, in general DE's just see A LOT of one on ones. There are usually 4 down linement and if too much attention is given one way, it opens the door on the backside too easily to blitzes.

As in, Matthews has to fight through more blocks simply because he is in a different scheme, and due to injuries, is being relied to do MORE than should be normally required, and thus, is limiting his ability to change the pace. With Jenkins supposedly coming back on Sunday, it should be exciting to see if Matthews can move around a bit. Hopefully should we win, Matthews is back to practicing for the playoffs.

[Scott Campbell]

AK doesn't have an uncle in Canton.

[mraynrand]

I don't happen to think that was the issue.

I don't believe McCarthy had a great game plan for that particular game.

I don't believe Barbre was a good draft choice.

I don't believe that Colledge has had the best coaching, and I don't believe his attitude has helped with the coaching he has received.

I'm still waiting for your view.

I never had any interest in answering your dumbass, baiting questions - I only was making the point that you're trotting out the same dumbass point, in the same baiting manner that you've been doing now for what? - how many months? BORING! We get the point, and it's not a very interesting or enlightening point. And the sardonic delivery is irritating.

[Packers4Ever]

Hey guys, just a quick question here,

has anybody seen "Da Baddest Bear" yet?

Not that I miss him.....hehehe


Packers4Ever
sig coming soon!
Packers4Ever

[bobblehead]

You need to also factor this: Cullen Jenkins, who has been oustanding this year even when he had the club on his hand, has been out 3 games.

This meant:

1. When we only rushed 3, it was always Raji, Picket, Matthews. You couldn't disguise Matthews as he was, essentially, considered the 3rd down linemen. In that situation, with those 3, Matthews is the most Dangerous to get to the QB, while Raji is the most dangerous to run against and Picket is more of a solid role player than a play maker - best used to open up things for Jenkings/raji.

2. Matthews hasn't been able to practice much, which is claimed to be a reason he hasn't been moving around. If you recall, when he was on his early tear, Matthews was coming from everywhere. Right, Left, stunts up the gut... last 4 games he has just been coming off the left side. This is in part because he hasn;t practiced, but also has to be in part that Jenkins isn't there. Matthews, in passing situations, can't just play that blitzing LB role - he is playing the role of a linemen.

Kampman was a great 4-3 DE. He was even having a good year this year until the injury. I will never question that Kampman was one of the premier pass rushing 4-3 DE's in the game. The question here is who saw more attention - and I think it's easy to say it's Matthews.

Why?

- Matthews has had to practically be a Linemen the last 3 games in a 3 linemen set.
- Kampman always had at least 3 other down linemen with him, plus maybe a blitzer.
- While Kampman was gameplanned for, like Jared ALlen is, like Peppers, blah blah, in general DE's just see A LOT of one on ones. There are usually 4 down linement and if too much attention is given one way, it opens the door on the backside too easily to blitzes.

As in, Matthews has to fight through more blocks simply because he is in a different scheme, and due to injuries, is being relied to do MORE than should be normally required, and thus, is limiting his ability to change the pace. With Jenkins supposedly coming back on Sunday, it should be exciting to see if Matthews can move around a bit. Hopefully should we win, Matthews is back to practicing for the playoffs.

And when Clay gets 15.5 in a season I will say "cool, he has now equalled Kampmans best season" I suspect he will. He might never. I'm just trying to keep people grounded a bit....the people who were predicting him breaking Strahans record after week 3. I'm also trying to get people to stop dissing Kampman based on preconceived notions about his talent. The man was an exceptional player. A guy teams gameplanned for.

When you are on winning teams and have talent around you, you get more credit than you deserve often. And vice versa. I would argue that Kamp NEVER lined up anywhere close to a guy with BJ Raji's talent. At least to my credit, BJ has already done something none of Kampy's DLine teammates have done. Played a monster number of snaps and stayed effective.

[mraynrand]

And when Clay gets 15.5 in a season I will say "cool, he has now equalled Kampmans best season" I suspect he will. He might never. I'm just trying to keep people grounded a bit....the people who were predicting him breaking Strahans record after week 3. I'm also trying to get people to stop dissing Kampman based on preconceived notions about his talent. The man was an exceptional player. A guy teams gameplanned for.

When you are on winning teams and have talent around you, you get more credit than you deserve often. And vice versa. I would argue that Kamp NEVER lined up anywhere close to a guy with BJ Raji's talent. At least to my credit, BJ has already done something none of Kampy's DLine teammates have done. Played a monster number of snaps and stayed effective.

Except maybe New Orleans. Maybe Matthews had something to do with Raji playing better. Surprisingly, Corey Williams seems to be playing 'much better' next to Suh.

[pbmax]

How can Rats have preconceived notions about his talent when we watched him for seven years before having this conversation?

AK is a motor, effort and technique player. He played with an effective KGB, a younger Jenkins and a breakout Corey Williams. Raji has just started to expand his game in the second half of the season.

If you want to argue that Matthews hasn't yet surpassed Kampman as a pass rusher, I can agree. But I think Waldo's point stands. Matthews is more disruptive right now than Kampman was.

[get louder at lambeau]

I believe in '06 and '07 combined Kamp led the entire NFL in sacks.

No he didn't.

[bobblehead]

How can Rats have preconceived notions about his talent when we watched him for seven years before having this conversation?

AK is a motor, effort and technique player. He played with an effective KGB, a younger Jenkins and a breakout Corey Williams. Raji has just started to expand his game in the second half of the season.

If you want to argue that Matthews hasn't yet surpassed Kampman as a pass rusher, I can agree. But I think Waldo's point stands. Matthews is more disruptive right now than Kampman was.

The preconceived notion is that a technique player is inferior to a speed rusher. Now, if Mathews developes some of the techniques that Kampman had, he will be unstoppable. I hope he does. I am hoping to be proven wrong here. I even expect that he will.

As for who played around them. Corey Williams was breakout because of Kampman and KGB. He crapped out with Cleveland and is now is merely ok in Detroit. I trust TT who chose to trade him rather than pay him. KGB was a great speed rusher who did help Kampman about the same as Raji helps Mathews. Jenkins we can call a push, but I believe he is better now than he was then.

Waldos point wasn't that Mathews was "more disruptive" than Kampman. I can't recall the exact quote, but he basically said that Kampman couldn't hold Mathews jock strap. And furthermore, I don't believe that Mathews is that much more disruptive at this point. Maybe a bit more. I give him a lot of credit for some of his strips. I have soured on him quite a bit in recent weeks as a rusher when he can't move around as much and surprise a team. He isn't getting to the QB as much. Its a teamwide thing of course. Jenkins has been out/hurt, we are starting the towel boy at the opposite OLB spot, playing better teams etc.