Rate the 2008 draft

[Brandon494]

I know that sounds ignorant since Cobb has yet to even step on the field but I believe Randall Cobb will be our future #2 reciever over Nelson. I don't have any stats to back this up I just know talent when I see it and Cobb is going to be a fast fan favorite.

[get louder at lambeau]

I know that sounds ignorant since Cobb has yet to even step on the field but I believe Randall Cobb will be our future #2 reciever over Nelson. I don't have any stats to back this up I just know talent when I see it and Cobb is going to be a fast fan favorite.

I hope you're right. That would be awesome if he turned out to be that good. Fuck, I hope he becomes our new #1 for that matter. For now, my money is still on Jordy as the #2.

[sharpe1027]

Compared to other TEs, Finley is on the pass catching side. Compared other WRs, Jordy is on the blocking side. Compared to each other, no comparison. If Jordy could do what Finley does why did we have to suffer through a season of poor play from Quarless? Shouldn't they have just moved Jordy to that spot? Instead, they struggled for several weeks trying to adjust an offense that was geared around that position and what Finley could do.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/29666/no-overstating-the-loss-of-jermichael-finley

"The Packers built their entire offense around him this season. They knew his exceptional speed and ball skills made him almost impossible for defenses to account for, and felt his blocking skills had progressed to the point where he could be trusted to play on every down."

Also, if you read the article you say doesn't show anything, you will notice two things:
1) He was trying to block Julius Freakin Peppers. Peppers has made seasoned linemen look foolish. Do you have any examples of Jordy trying to block a guy like Peppers?
2) They said it was the only bad run plays all year.

In the end, I just don't buy your opinion that Jordy would be just fine in Finley's position. It doesn't jive with what I see when they are on the field. They look like two totally different players. More importantly, nothing I've read from coaches, scouts or writers that backs up what you are trying to tell me. IDK, maybe we can just agree to disagree on this point?

[get louder at lambeau]

Compared to other TEs, Finley is on the pass catching side. Compared other WRs, Jordy is on the blocking side. Compared to each other, no comparison. If Jordy could do what Finley does why did we have to suffer through a season of poor play from Quarless? Shouldn't they have just moved Jordy to that spot? Instead, they struggled for several weeks trying to adjust an offense that was geared around that position and what Finley could do.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/29666/no-overstating-the-loss-of-jermichael-finley

"The Packers built their entire offense around him this season. They knew his exceptional speed and ball skills made him almost impossible for defenses to account for, and felt his blocking skills had progressed to the point where he could be trusted to play on every down."

Also, if you read the article you say doesn't show anything, you will notice two things:
1) He was trying to block Julius Freakin Peppers. Pepper's has made seasoned linemen look foolish. Do you have any examples of Jordy trying to block a guy like Peppers?
2) He said it was the only two bad run all year.

In the end, I just don't buy your opinion that Jordy would be just fine in Finley's position. It doesn't jive with what I see when they are on the field. They look like two totally different players. More importantly, nothing I've read from coaches, scouts or writers backs up what you are trying to tell me. IDK, maybe we can just agree to disagree on this point?

I already said I was joking about Jordy playing TE. As far as blocking Peppers, yes, I think Nelson could fail at blocking him just as well as Finley did.

My WHOLE point here has been about Jordy being undervalued and Finley overvalued in comparison to each other, NOT that Jordy is better than Finley. I have said it over and over.

Here's a site that has some love for Jordy AND Finley- Football Outsiders.

They rank Jordy #40 in DYAR and #22 in DVOA, their 2 main stats. Considering that there are 32 #1 WRs and 64 starting WRs in the NFL, they seem to be saying that he's clearly a staring caliber WR, ranking somewhere near the bottom of #1 WRs or top of #2 WRs. Jennings gets #3 and #7 in those stats, Jones #52 and #61 (also starting caliber), and Driver comes in last of the big four GB WRs at a still respectable #71 and #68.

Finley blows it up in the TE stats, which is unsurprising because they are based on receiving numbers only, since there are no real blocking stats, coming in at #13 and #2.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I know that sounds ignorant since Cobb has yet to even step on the field but I believe Randall Cobb will be our future #2 reciever over Nelson. I don't have any stats to back this up I just know talent when I see it and Cobb is going to be a fast fan favorite.

I don't see it. Cobb isn't Greg Jennings, and I think he'd be miscast as an #2 (outside) receiver. Dude has the potential to be a good slot receiver though.

[Brandon494]

I don't see it. Cobb isn't Greg Jennings, and I think he'd be miscast as an #2 (outside) receiver. Dude has the potential to be a good slot receiver though.

Who said anything about Jennings? Their games are nothing alike so I agree he's not Greg Jennings but he will be the future #2 receiver for the Packers. If you want to compare him to a receiver then think of Hines Ward.

[sharpe1027]

I already said I was joking about Jordy playing TE. As far as blocking Peppers, yes, I think Nelson could fail at blocking him just as well as Finley did.

My WHOLE point here has been about Jordy being undervalued and Finley overvalued in comparison to each other, NOT that Jordy is better than Finley. I have said it over and over.

Here's a site that has some love for Jordy AND Finley- Football Outsiders.

They rank Jordy #40 in DYAR and #22 in DVOA, their 2 main stats. Considering that there are 32 #1 WRs and 64 starting WRs in the NFL, they seem to be saying that he's clearly a staring caliber WR, ranking somewhere near the bottom of #1 WRs or top of #2 WRs. Jennings gets #3 and #7 in those stats, Jones #52 and #61 (also starting caliber), and Driver comes in last of the big four GB WRs at a still respectable #71 and #68.

Finley blows it up in the TE stats, which is unsurprising because they are based on receiving numbers only, since there are no real blocking stats, coming in at #13 and #2.

I can understand the point that Jordy is undervalued and Finley is overvalued.

I still disagree with the premise of some of your explanations. For example, I don't agree that a straight comparison of statistics (such as total yards over three years) shows that Jordy was more productive. I also disagree that Finley should get no credit for blocking in situations that they would never put Jordy in.

Is that fair? I think we've gotten pretty close to agreeing in substance.

[get louder at lambeau]

I can understand the point that Jordy is undervalued and Finley is overvalued.

I still disagree with the premise of some of your explanations. For example, I don't agree that a straight comparison of statistics (such as total yards over three years) shows that Jordy was more productive. I also disagree that Finley should get no credit for blocking in situations that they would never put Jordy in.

Is that fair? I think we've gotten pretty close to agreeing in substance.

Yeah, we're pretty close. I can't think of an example of Finley ever really blocking well, and I don't think he's asked to do it much, but that's about it. Receivers are receivers to me, unless they are old school TEs that are used to block more than token amounts. Finley is just a huge WR who they move around in my mind. That's what I see him do on the field. Besides that, I think we're on the same basic page.

[mraynrand]

But that hasn't been true in general. Look at the highlights of Finley I posted. He doesn't get doubled anywhere near as much as his fan created legend would have you believe. His catches are generally against LBs or single safeties or CBs. Our offense throws too many weapons at the D for them to just continuously double a TE.

That may be true. Or not. Double, single, zone, whatever, if they throw up a scheme specifically to neutralize Finley over another WR, that's significant. The point is that - true or not - it's part of the evaluation, apart from stats.

[get louder at lambeau]

That may be true. Or not. Double, single, zone, whatever, if they throw up a scheme specifically to neutralize Finley over another WR, that's significant. The point is that - true or not - it's part of the evaluation, apart from stats.

The guy I would scheme against if I was going up against the Packers is Greg Jennings. No question. Not even close. The guy with 45 TDs and almost 6000 yards in 5 years, not the guy with a little over 100 yards and 7 TDs in three years.

Finley is the beneficiary of teams scheming against Jennings and not being able to scheme against him, just like Jordy in the Super Bowl, IMO. Jennings is one of the absolute best weapons in the NFL- #2 in TDs and #4 in receiving yards in the league this year, and he has torn up defenses for years.

[mraynrand]

You make good points. Still, teams did scheme for Finley. It's pretty obvious in the opener at Philly last year. But this is minor detail. Finley, Jennings, Cobb in the slot and Nelson at the other WR. As others have noted, there is no way even the best defenses can cover all this. With reasonable protection, Rodgers will carve up the opposition.

[Brandon494]

The guy I would scheme against if I was going up against the Packers is Greg Jennings. No question. Not even close. The guy with 45 TDs and almost 6000 yards in 5 years, not the guy with a little over 100 yards and 7 TDs in three years.

Finley is the beneficiary of teams scheming against Jennings and not being able to scheme against him, just like Jordy in the Super Bowl, IMO. Jennings is one of the absolute best weapons in the NFL- #2 in TDs and #4 in receiving yards in the league this year, and he has torn up defenses for years.

And that's why your not a defense coordinator. You keep giving us all these stats but stats do not tell the whole story. When healthy it's no question the offense goes thru Finley. Look for ARod TD passes to increase by 8-10 IF Finley plays the whole season.

[mraynrand]

Who said anything about Jennings? Their games are nothing alike so I agree he's not Greg Jennings but he will be the future #2 receiver for the Packers. If you want to compare him to a receiver then think of Hines Ward.

And Cobb is nothing like Nelson either. Complimentary players that will make headaches for defenses. #2 as in starter or #2 as in production - it all depends on how McCarthy wants to use him. Whether that will be true this year, depends on how fast the labor dispute gets solved and how quick he picks things up. You have to believe McCarthy is sitting there in GB, drawing up packages with featuring Cobb and then banging his head against a wall because he doesn't know when the guy will be available.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Who said anything about Jennings? Their games are nothing alike so I agree he's not Greg Jennings but he will be the future #2 receiver for the Packers. If you want to compare him to a receiver then think of Hines Ward.

He's not going to be Jennings or Ward, IMHO. I don't see him being an outside receiver. Jennings and Ward can play outside (well, Ward when he was younger). That will mean that he's going to be mostly utilized in the slot. They are going to need Jennings and another receiver in two WR sets. I'm guessing that they'll get a long-term deal done with Nelson, and it will be Jennings and Nelson on the outside with Cobb mostly playing in the slot in 3 WR sets (in addition to putting him in the backfield and other gimmicky stuff).

[get louder at lambeau]

And that's why your not a defense coordinator. You keep giving us all these stats but stats do not tell the whole story. When healthy it's no question the offense goes thru Finley. Look for ARod TD passes to increase by 8-10 IF Finley plays the whole season.

And you ARE a "defense coordinator"? I didn't realize. Please enlighten us with how you would defend against the Packer offense, if you wouldn't mind.

If a defensive coordinator took my approach against them, the Packer offense WOULD go through Finley, because the D would be busy keying on Jennings and Finley would be running routes against LBs a lot of the time. Hmmm... That sounds strangely similar to what Finley's highlights show.