packer involved in miami scandal

[Patler]

They get research grants which include pay

Yes some do, but it is not always very much in comparison to what is paid to the University. All in all, top football players have a better deal. I was personally involved with one research project that paid a University several million. It "sponsored" a doctoral student who was not compensated from the program because it was his thesis project. It laso compensated 3 or 4 undergrads as their workstudy job (minimal hourly pay. The rest ($millions) went to the University coffers.

[Patler]

The Principe Investigators - the heads of the labs - write the grants that bring in the money. Undergraduates who work in the labs, at an equivalent level to football players, do mostly low-level, entry-level work, including glassware washing. A few contribute significantly, but they are rewarded with research publications and better resumes. They are mostly paid or get piddly internship level money. They do not bring in the money. No one travels hundreds of miles to watch them work in the lab on Saturday and no television crew broadcasts their glassware washing. ESPN doesn't show highlights.

But it is their labors that make it possible for the University to rake in the money. Often their results are much higher prized an more long lastingly prized that the athletes entertainment provided.

[woodbuck27]

Can he return the 42 " TV to the Miami University Social Club as a chartable donation; and get an exemption from all liability? He's aready (p) assed all of the food and drinks. He's likely gotten over or never got anywhere with 'the Hooker' that came with that VIP Pass.

What's the issue?

[Fritz]

But I think the amateur thing is a key part of how the NCAA presents itself. Take that away (or, more accurately, acknowledge the true extent of institutional corruption) and the NCAA loses its whole mystique. I just don't think college football could be the industry it is if it acknowledged that many of the players in its top programs were essentially poorly paid pros. Thought experiment: Do you think the Olympics lost something when it started allowing pro athletes to compete in basketball, hockey, etc.? I do.

Well, Hoosier, I prefer the honest approach in part because I don't think the NCAA has any "mystique" left at all. It's a scam, a sham. As for your thought experiment, that's a different situation because the Olympics allowed an entirely different set of people to compete. And the Olympics in any case had already lost its luster years and years ago in my eyes anyway. Just like the NCAA did. In the case of my proposal, it'd be the same set of people, but acknowledging that they're really there to develop their skills in hopes of landing in a pro career. This is what major league baseball does.

[hoosier]

But it is their labors that make it possible for the University to rake in the money. Often their results are much higher prized an more long lastingly prized that the athletes entertainment provided.

Are you speaking of undergraduates or graduate students? Big difference. As Rand said, undergraduate labor is cheap because it's entirely replaceable. If Joe doesn't want to wash beakers and mix solutions for $10/hour then Suzy will gladly do it. Graduate students receive stipends and, more importantly, their contributions to the field (which can be significant but are not always indispensible) are part of their apprenticeship. The football player:student analogy doesn't quite work for me, even if it's referring to more highly trained graduate students. First, because the monies involved are not comparable (compare Alvarez's and Bielema's salaries to that of a senior professor in the sciences) and second because the college athlete is what sells whereas the professor's name is frequently what brings in high quality grad students in the first place.

[hoosier]

Well, Hoosier, I prefer the honest approach in part because I don't think the NCAA has any "mystique" left at all. It's a scam, a sham. As for your thought experiment, that's a different situation because the Olympics allowed an entirely different set of people to compete. And the Olympics in any case had already lost its luster years and years ago in my eyes anyway. Just like the NCAA did. In the case of my proposal, it'd be the same set of people, but acknowledging that they're really there to develop their skills in hopes of landing in a pro career. This is what major league baseball does.

OK, I see your point. You're just more jaded (realistic) than me.

[sharpe1027]

I don't buy the whole poor college kids angle. Nobody is forcing them to play football and take the scholarship. It is a (relatively) free country, and if it is such a bad deal they could play in the Canadian league for a couple years before the NFL or start their own league. Most businesses have a similar situation where the guys on top make insane amounts of money, while many of the employees do not.

If they change the rules to let the players make additional the money, I'd be OK with that if they were smart about it. But they haven't done that yet. Bottom line, the rules were broken and everyone knew they were breaking them. Enforce the rules that were already in place, but feel free to change them in the future.

[sharpe1027]

The Principe Investigators - the heads of the labs - write the grants that bring in the money. Undergraduates who work in the labs, at an equivalent level to football players, do mostly low-level, entry-level work, including glassware washing. A few contribute significantly, but they are rewarded with research publications and better resumes. They are mostly paid or get piddly internship level money. They do not bring in the money. No one travels hundreds of miles to watch them work in the lab on Saturday and no television crew broadcasts their glassware washing. ESPN doesn't show highlights.

These same students are also inventors of technologies that can be worth a ridiculous amount of money, yet the university owns the rights to the technology. How is a publication and a better resume a fair shake in that situation? You can argue that the athletes also get a better (NFL) resume by playing in college and that they get more than the equivalent of publications with all the publicity that the university does for them.

[Harlan Huckleby]

September 17: Ohio State at Miami. Will they bill it as The Probation Bowl?

I just remember the Notre Dame-Miami rivalry game was always "Catholics vrs. Criminals"

[mraynrand]

But it is their labors that make it possible for the University to rake in the money. Often their results are much higher prized an more long lastingly prized that the athletes entertainment provided.

Not typically undergrads - if you want to compare apples to apples. If you want to start talking graduate students and post docs, that's a different story.

[mraynrand]

If you took the revenues generated by the football program and gave 40-50% of it to the athletes to be distributed that would be reasonably fair. I say, still give them the four year eligibility - some will choose to get educated right away, and for others, having that guaranteed college opportunity waiting for them when they finish attempting to play in the NFL or elsewhere is far more valuable and sensical than having them blow it on basket weaving 101. A lot of these guys won't mature for a long time and they blow their physical bodies with nothing to show for it AND they've lost their chance to use their education. Many need remedial education just to take advantage of college in the first place. I say pay them for their on-field efforts and guarantee that four year education, to be cashed in whenever they want.

[mraynrand]

These same students are also inventors of technologies that can be worth a ridiculous amount of money, yet the university owns the rights to the technology. How is a publication and a better resume a fair shake in that situation?

The situation you describe is more rare for undergraduates than graduates, post-docs, and Principle Investigators. As for the specific case, people go into university research knowing they might give up their rights to the university and only get a sliver of the earnings. But the resume and the track record and the recommendation from a prof get you to your own position running your own lab - if that's what you want. I can guarantee you this - if you come up with some hot technology or biological breakthrough, you will be writing your own ticket. I know six Nobel Laureates personally who went through the undergraduate, graduate, post-doc route. 1 of 6 'struck it rich' in his post-doc and the other 5 had long-term established labs before getting the prize. Still, to be fair, half of them did their best work right out of their post-docs. Much of the earnings they made on their technology came from participating in independent businesses that made products from their discoveries, but I don't recall exactly how much the universities got from those endeavors. The universities clean up though in grant funding - both for the specific individuals and their labs - and also because they are the institutions that can claim they fostered nobel prize winners - a not so insignificant attraction. In other words, if you contribute, you will be rewarded.

[Smidgeon]

That argument doesn't wash when you compare it to nonathlete students who work on research projects that bring in millions and millions beyond what the football programs do. The football players are compensated much better than their intellectual counterparts as it is.

Colleges and universities have many, many ways of making huge sums off the labors of their students. It's not just football players who are taken advantage of, yet for some reason people are concerned for the fairness to the football players.

In my opinion, it all comes down to hero worship. In America, that hero worship revolves around football players. Because that hero worship is so fanatic, there's money to be made, and organizations capitalize on it. I don't think anything will be solved as long as football is as important as it is.

It reminds me of an article I read a while back about hazing in sports. It listed all the legal hazing violations in sports (high school through pro) with a basic summary. Some of these things were brutal and incredibly humiliating (including way too many "sodomozing with a broom handle" stories). But the thing that really jumped out to me was that time and time again "the parents didn't press charges". Now, there are a variety of reasons this could have been the case: 1) wanting the situation to die down quickly, 2) wanting to move on and not drag out a humiliation, 3) pressure by the school to not sink the program, 4) the importance of the sport and team being placed over the importance of the child's well being (my gut feeling as to the number one reason, but I could be wrong), or more.

The point is, people will break the rules and sweep evidence under the rug for the sake of the sport they love. Do I understand it? Yes. Do I condone it? Absolutely not. I think it's indicative of a value system that's in dire shape and has damaging consequences to the psyche of American youth (and American parents for that matter).

Just my thoughts and all I'm going to say on the topic.

[mraynrand]

....including way too many "sodomozing with a broom handle" stories.....

The point is, people will break the rules and sweep evidence under the rug for the sake of the sport they love.

Hopefully they are not using the same broom.

[sharpe1027]

[] people go into university research knowing they might give up their rights to the university and only get a sliver of the earnings. But the resume and the track record and the recommendation from a prof get you to your own position running your own lab - if that's what you want. I can guarantee you this - if you come up with some hot technology or biological breakthrough, you will be writing your own ticket. ... In other words, if you contribute, you will be rewarded.

College athletes go into university teams knowing they will give up their rights to the university and only get a sliver of the earnings. But their college resumes and the track record, the publicity and the recommendation from their coaches get you to your own position in the pros- if that's what you want. I can guarantee you this - if you are a gifted athlete with a great skill set, you will be writing your own ticket. In other words, if you contribute, you will be rewarded.