Suddenly, I'm Really Down On This Team

[Packnut]

TT

woodbuck- I am also not a big fan of TT's. I have not and never will get over the Wahle blunder. Yet everytime I mention it, someone responds about the cap situation at the time. Well as it turns out, several players could have been asked to re-structure because the money to pay them is there now and my point is there was no effort at all.

If you look at the guys TT brought in last season, he clearly has a hard time evaluating O line talent but more disturbingly, under-estimates the importance of the O line.

[jack's smirking revenge]

I'd love to have Porter, but I'm glad the Packers aren't giving up a high draft pick for him. The Raiders hold all of the cards here. They are demanding a high draft pick AND a team to pick up his multi-million dollar salary. That's crazy! You can't criticize the Woodson pickup--which was acceptable because we had cap space and it did NOT cost a draft pick--yet criticize TT for not getting Porter. TT is smart for waiting for the Raiders to drop their price. They're probably demanding a first-rounder, for a guy whose numbers are comparable to Rod Gardner! Yes, he's got upside and potential, but not at a first-round pick price. Second, maybe. Third, definitely.

As for Lelie, I think there's a reason why NO team in the league is fighting over each other to pick him up. Have you considered that? Have you considered that maybe he's just a one-trick pony? His time in Denver was decent, but woefully unimpressive. If TT broke the bank on Lelie, just because we need another receiver (which we don't if TEs were incorporated better), then I would be GREATLY disappointed. Lelie was good at the long ball in Denver, that was it.

Have you considered that TT may be doing what he can given the free agent market and current cap situation? TT has given us the following players: Rodgers, Collins, Underwood, Poppinga, Coston, Hawkins, Hawk, Jennings, Hodge, Spitz, Colledge, Rodgers, Moll, Culver, and possibly Blackmon when he's recovered.

How many of those young names do you see in the starting (or at least practicing with the first team) ranks?

tyler

[MJZiggy]

That's the way I felt last year, and it turned out to be a train wreck. I have a bad feeling that I'd just be drinking too much Kool-Aid if I thought they were going to be better. If San Francisco had this roster, I'd say they'd win 5 games. The only reasons I can see that we might do better are Brett Favre and Ahman Green. Tony Friggin' Moll starting? If Colledge is playing so poorly that the coaches felt the need to bench him for Moll, then I'd say expecting the OL to be better than last year is a reach.

Part of me can't help but think they're not too optimistic about Clifton's injury and are hoping Moll can be effective starting. That way, in a pinch they can play Colledge at LT

That may be, Partial, they do have to have an effective backup for Clifton even if he were healing wonderfully. If Colledge struggled during that game, Moll performed well, and Colledge's natural position is Tackle what would you do? Does anyone think that they really shouldn't have rewarded Moll for a superior performance and not give Colledge a shot at playing the position he earned his round 2 pick with? Coach said this isn't necessarily a permanent change. They just want to see how they perform/improve. I don't see what's so horrible about that. My gut is still feeling far better about things this year than last year.

[prsnfoto]

[quote="jack's smirking revenge"]Woodbuck, you make some very good points.

We diverge on Favre though. I don't think its folly to gear this whole team toward the Rodgers future. Favre is NOT the future. Honestly, beyond the money, I don't know why he's hanging on. Love of the game? Perhaps. Money? Probably. Records? Most likely. I'm not disappointed that he is still our QB, but the "intelligent" Packer fans all know that Favre is just around for records. There's no Super Bowl team right here and Brett knew it when he decided to come back. Rodgers is the future BF (beyond Favre). We're a team in transition, a team rebuilding. "Retooling" is just a marketing spin to cover up the fact that the team is going in a different direction. It's changing ALL OVER the place--lines, schemes, personnel. This is a drastically different team than even a year ago.

There are two schools of thought around Favre: TT should throw money at building the best team possible so he can have his last show and/or TT is not going to mortgage the future just so Favre can have one more shot. I for one am content that TT is doing what he can to build this team back up. There is much damage throughout, much more than a single offseason and a huge cap can fix. In my opinion, 2007 may offer Favre the chance to return to the Super Bowl if he can hang on this year. We're starting to get some really talented depth AND we'll have a nice cap number next year to go after some more free agents.

Build through the draft. Plan for a dynasty with youth. Augment with reasonably-priced free agents.

Unfortunately, Favre is probably not part of that picture unless he sticks around until next year.

Tom Brady could be our QB and with TT intelligence for building a OL he would look like crap. What I don't get is TT is staking his future on this OL he drafted and will not spend a nickel on any vets I have no doubt if Clifton and Tauscher were not locked up he would let them walk, earth to Ted if you are not 8-8 this year 9-7 next and 10-6 the next your gone. Thank god this team pulls the plug much faster then it did in the 70s and 80s. I'm not giving up yet but damn lets see some hope that Seattle was not a fluke and he knows what the fuck he is doing.

[jack's smirking revenge]

Re: TT

woodbuck- I am also not a big fan of TT's. I have not and never will get over the Wahle blunder. Yet everytime I mention it, someone responds about the cap situation at the time. Well as it turns out, several players could have been asked to re-structure because the money to pay them is there now and my point is there was no effort at all.

If you look at the guys TT brought in last season, he clearly has a hard time evaluating O line talent but more disturbingly, under-estimates the importance of the O line.

I agree with you that TT should've addressed the OLine situation better in 2005 when Wahle and Rivera stepped out of the picture. He didn't. But he's not a bad Oline evaluator. He did get us three decent prospects this year in Colledge, Spitz and Moll.

And, when he was VP of Football Ops (similar post he has now) in Seattle, he drafted the following Oline players:

Chris McIntosh
Steve Hutchinson
Floyd Womack
Wayner Hunter
Sean Locklear
Matt Hill

Most of these guys are or were starters. Hunter and Locklear are still part of the Seattle Oline. McIntosh, Hutch and Womack are studs. He also benefitted from inheriting Walter Jones.

So, I don't think we can really criticize his Oline knowledge. Not yet. Not after one bad preseason game. Moll evidentally did pretty well in the game after Colledge was demoted and Clifton's injury complicates things. We lack quality depth at the position and, as evidenced by the 2006 draft, I think he's working on it.

tyler

[GBRulz]

I think it was Partial who brought up the point about Clifton's injury.....

I've been thinking about that as well. Are they worried more than they are letting on to? I really thought he'd be ready to go by now.

[RIPackerFan]

It is way too early to jump ship. It was the first preseason game, with a new coaching staff and new players. While there was a lot to dislike about the game, there were some positives.

I watched the game again and like some of the previous posters said – the O-line didn’t do as bad as I thought it did. Colledge was definitely the poorest – so the coaching staff decided to make a change. I think it was too early to do that, but if it pans out, the O-line has more time in the preseason to gel (as opposed to changing the starting line-up one week before the regular season).

Also, San Diego also threw a bunch of stuff at us – including tons of blitz packages and several different offensive looks (the Chargers home announcers even said so). While I agree that we should have played better, I saw more thinking than playing by the players – probably because they hadn’t practiced a lot against all the looks the Chargers were giving to them – and were thinking about what they needed to do. Remember – they had only practiced for two weeks prior to this game – two weeks to implement a new scheme and get the rooks ready. To me, this explains all the thinking. As time goes by and they have more time to practice – they will think less, since it will become second nature.

To be honest – I would prefer this loss over a win where the other team played a vanilla defense and offense. A win over vanilla will produce a false sense of accomplishment – a loss over something complex shows the team (and coaches) they need to prepare more and be ready for everything.

I guess we will see this weekend if anything sunk in.

[RIPackerFan]

Clifton said after the 20 plays in the SD game - he felt pretty good - so I am hoping that it is better than it looked.

[woodbuck27]

Re: TT

woodbuck- I am also not a big fan of TT's. I have not and never will get over the Wahle blunder. Yet everytime I mention it, someone responds about the cap situation at the time. Well as it turns out, several players could have been asked to re-structure because the money to pay them is there now and my point is there was no effort at all.

If you look at the guys TT brought in last season, he clearly has a hard time evaluating O line talent but more disturbingly, under-estimates the importance of the O line.

I really believe as Packer fans we have this forum to get to the TRUTH. That means to not be disallutioned by the promise of things to come - reliant on one man's eforts free of any criticism. I am not easy on Ted Thompson, because I feel he didn't spend OUR money wisely in this Off Season.

Oh yes ! He wanted Brett Favre to return? To what????

More failure - when we all know he will give his heart and soul as a football player, and the man he obviously is? What a sham.

If OUR GM Ted Thompson wanted Brett Favre really to return, he needed to provide tools for Brett Favre and the other vet's on OUR offense to really have a chance to win with. This talk of Favre and records is BS, because without the tools to win games it all falls apart.

Brett Favre wants to win. Ahman Green wants to win, as does every really decent player on OUR team that are "in fact" the vet's.

Ted Thompson has sacrificed all OUR vet's aspirations in their twilight, to his ego, his inexperience and I'll fall short of saying his overall incompetence, to ever being a decent GM.

When Ted Thompson does something decent I'm there to comment favorably, but this Off Season he failed in his job and we'll (the fans and OUR Vet players) will all suffer 2006 for just that.

He didn't do nearly enough there.

Ted Thompson in my sight doesn't give a hoot about 2006. He's retiring Brett Favre and Ahman Green. I suffer for that - the manner in which he's allowing their final fall. Has he no conscience? Is he really competent?

This is all plainly and painfully obvious to me. So what will he do today and tomorrow to help the Green Bay Packers - not just himself?

This season will be 100% on Ted Thompson - from the Head Coach he chose and that Coaching Staff, to losing a fine Defensive Co-Ordinator in Jim Bates, and the negatives will go on and on as this season progress's.That is my honest feeling. I can't escape my observations.I can't paint a false picture or act like it's all really OK anymore.

I have Faith. Yes I do. Yet, that faith has to be rewarded by competence in the GM of the Green Bay Packers and his staff. It's certainly not happening in 2006 as I view it now.

We need HELP !

Do something Ted Thompson - fast. Do anything REAL!!!

It's right in front of us dedicated Packer fans (on this site) and we need to push him to do more and smarten up as Packer fans deserve alot more from his hire.

This is OUR team - not Ted Thompson's.

GO PACKERS ! HOLD THE FAITH for 2006 !!

[LaFours]

[quote="prsnfoto"]

Woodbuck, you make some very good points.

We diverge on Favre though. I don't think its folly to gear this whole team toward the Rodgers future. Favre is NOT the future. Honestly, beyond the money, I don't know why he's hanging on. Love of the game? Perhaps. Money? Probably. Records? Most likely. I'm not disappointed that he is still our QB, but the "intelligent" Packer fans all know that Favre is just around for records. There's no Super Bowl team right here and Brett knew it when he decided to come back. Rodgers is the future BF (beyond Favre). We're a team in transition, a team rebuilding. "Retooling" is just a marketing spin to cover up the fact that the team is going in a different direction. It's changing ALL OVER the place--lines, schemes, personnel. This is a drastically different team than even a year ago.

If he doesn't value OL talent then I guess we can close the books on any speculation that he had anything to do with getting Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson in Seattle. Hutchinson (a guard) was drafted in the first round. Wasn't TT heading up those drafts?

There are two schools of thought around Favre: TT should throw money at building the best team possible so he can have his last show and/or TT is not going to mortgage the future just so Favre can have one more shot. I for one am content that TT is doing what he can to build this team back up. There is much damage throughout, much more than a single offseason and a huge cap can fix. In my opinion, 2007 may offer Favre the chance to return to the Super Bowl if he can hang on this year. We're starting to get some really talented depth AND we'll have a nice cap number next year to go after some more free agents.

Build through the draft. Plan for a dynasty with youth. Augment with reasonably-priced free agents.

Unfortunately, Favre is probably not part of that picture unless he sticks around until next year.

Tom Brady could be our QB and with TT intelligence for building a OL he would look like crap. What I don't get is TT is staking his future on this OL he drafted and will not spend a nickel on any vets I have no doubt if Clifton and Tauscher were not locked up he would let them walk, earth to Ted if you are not 8-8 this year 9-7 next and 10-6 the next your gone. Thank god this team pulls the plug much faster then it did in the 70s and 80s. I'm not giving up yet but damn lets see some hope that Seattle was not a fluke and he knows what the fuck he is doing.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Yes, that first preseason game was horrible, but there was some good to take from it. The defense, which I agree did play poorly, still only gave up 17 points. I think there is to much talent on the defense that, with a little more time, will be fixed. As for the offense, everyone has to admit that the WRs played fairly well. Driver, Gardner, and Ferguson all played well and I think any one of them could easliy start athe season and preform well. Jennings showed that he could handle the NFL and start as a rookie with some of the nice catches that he made. He did have some drops, but I don't think that this will be a presistent problem because all the reports out of camp up until now have been about how good his hands are. The biggest concern of mine and of everyone esles is the o-line. Now with three preseason games left there is still some time to find out who can play and who can't. CC and MT we know can play and will be fine, and I have not hread anything negative on wells yet. That leaves the guards. If spiltz can continue to devlop in the next few games I think he will be fine. And if Moll plays well against Atlanta on saturday I have a feeling everyone is going to feel a lot better about the team. The main thing right now is not to panic and to keep the hope alive.

[woodbuck27]

Yes, that first preseason game was horrible, but there was some good to take from it. The defense, which I agree did play poorly, still only gave up 17 points. I think there is to much talent on the defense that, with a little more time, will be fixed. As for the offense, everyone has to admit that the WRs played fairly well. Driver, Gardner, and Ferguson all played well and I think any one of them could easliy start athe season and preform well. Jennings showed that he could handle the NFL and start as a rookie with some of the nice catches that he made. He did have some drops, but I don't think that this will be a presistent problem because all the reports out of camp up until now have been about how good his hands are. The biggest concern of mine and of everyone esles is the o-line. Now with three preseason games left there is still some time to find out who can play and who can't. CC and MT we know can play and will be fine, and I have not hread anything negative on wells yet. That leave the guards. If spiltz can continue to devlop in the next few games I think he will be fine. And if Moll plays well against Atlanta on saturday I have a feeling everyone is going to feel a lot better about the team. The main thing right now is not to panic and to keep the hope alive.

Good post PaCkFan_n_MD.

GO PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

What will Bretsky's response be here?

Looking for that.

GO PACKERS ! Come On Ted !!!!

[LaFours]

Wasn't Colledge given the starting Left Guard job immediately after he was drafted? McCarthy and TT have said time and again that they believe in creating a competitive environment. Colledge obviously didn't get it done on Sat. so why not throw some adversity his way and see how he responds? This, in my opinion, is a wise move. Moll played well and Colledge did not, based on the abbreviated history with each guy, Colledge needs challenged and Moll needs rewarded. I don't see what the big issue with this move is.

[jack's smirking revenge]

Let's consider the Brett situation and TT for a second:

1. Could TT actually tell Brett not to come back? No. He couldn't. Not the face of the Packers. Not the man whom every Packer fan thinks the world of and rallies around. TT didn't have an option with the Favre scenario. It was always "up to Favre". If he took a stand with Favre, he would've alienated the Packer nation and he understood that, so you have to give him props for not being a hard ass.

2. Could Favre have decided not to come back? Yes. He's a smart football player and a business man. He knows what's going on. He understands that he's not the future of the franchise anymore. He probably realizes that the team isn't going to rebuild itself to get Favre another ring. But he did decide to come back, regardless of circumstances. He has his own reasons and we'll get the "Favre-spin", but we'll really never know the truth of why he came back.

3. Is TT obligated to retool the team just for Favre? No. He's not. The Packers are a business. They are not a monarchy. The franchise will exist long beyond Favre. I disagree with the idea that he needs to break the bank to give Favre one last shot. The odds are slim that such an activity would wreap Super Bowl rewards and could set the franchise back even further in its quest to get back to the big game. There are few guarantees in the game of football, but if you get your team into cap trouble, your team is guaranteed to suffer.

So, don't dump the problems of the Pack squarely on TT. He is doing his job. He has brought in free agents in an attempt to make the team better. Some of them weren't flashy, some weren't the top of the heap of the market. He has drafted relatively well. The future should tell us more about his ability to draft for the Packers.

Yesterday woodbuck, you posted that I speak "the Truth". Well, I don't buy the anti-TT spin as truth, whether its coming from you or anyone else.

This team has lots of problems right now and they aren't all TT's fault.

tyler